Spotting a tracked M3?

[LiM3y]

I was chatting to a buddy in San Diego who is looking to get a used M3. He was asking about how to spot a track-thrashed M3 on a lot. I came up with checking for non-OEM brake fluid, braided stainless steel brake lines and signs of power steering fluid spills. I also suggested an ODB code read, and checking the very bottom of the running boards for rubber scuffs.

What you suggest to pick out a tracked M3 on the lot? Another thought would be worn and scratched brake bleeding nipples ()!

Also - can anyone recommend a good indy car shop in San Diego area that could to a vehicle pre-purchase inspection? I am in CT, so I have no chance.

[dmw16]

That's kinda tough, because there are plenty of people who do because race car upgrades on their cars and never take them to the track. So the SS lines and up-rated brake fluid wouldn't really be a big red flag for me.

However, I would say signs of a lot of brake fluid flushes or dates written on the brake fluid reservoir (something my local shop does). Take a look at the tires; track wear looks different than street wear. Brake pads; does the car have race pads?

The power steering fluid spills is a good call. And also good point on the rubber on the running boards.

Having said all of that, what's the aversion to a track-used car? Myself and the other guys I know that track their cars take way better care of the mechanicals than average owner. Tracked cars are regularly inspected. And the owner of a tracked car is very aware that a safe car is a big part of a safe track day. As long as you have a good shop do a PPI, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an otherwise good car because it has seen track duty.

[apecush]

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a tracked car - like dmw16 said, it is probably cared for better than 80% of the cars out there. That, and you really can't beat the italian tune-up for keeping the engine healthy. I shudder at people who "stay below 4 grand". Why did you buy the car if you're not going to drive it?

[Estoril Blue]

The vast majority of tracked cars are the most regularly, most carefully and the best maintained cars that I see. All of the fluids are changed far more often. They are up on a lift getting a thorough inspection before each event. Small issues or potential issues are corrected immediately - and properly.

That beats the tar out of poorly maintained cars driven by people who intend to own it for a short time and then turn it into someone else's longer term problem.

You might ask your friend just what he is specifically worried about.

[surlynkid]

people that track may ignore rubber on the bottom of the rockers, but they will maintain the heck out of everything else. they might have also gone under there with goo-gone and removed the rubber. i think i would rather have a tracked car than one that has not seen a brake fluid change in 3 years. people can put a sock over the power steering fluid, and swap pads and tires for race day. it is hard to say for sure if a car has been tracked.

[Porschefile]

I'm also in the camp that would buy a tracked car. I definitely maintain my cars much better than your average BMW owner, and I think it is safe to say most track guys do the same.

[LiM3y]

I'd buy a tracked car too. The question here is how would you spot one on the lot?

If my buddy is squeamish about it, that's his decision. We talked about it and I said that a tracked car is better maintained, with regular oil and fluid changes.

I'll rephrase the question:

If you are looking for a used M3 and specifically want a tracked one that has been maintained better, how would you spot it on the lot?

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

I'd buy a tracked car too. The question here is how would you spot one on the lot?

If my buddy is squeamish about it, that's his decision. We talked about it and I said that a tracked car is better maintained, with regular oil and fluid changes.

I'll rephrase the question:

If you are looking for a used M3 and specifically want a tracked one that has been maintained better, how would you spot it on the lot?

Clever...

But I really think the only possible way would be rubber on the underside of the side skirts. Everything else could just as easily be a guy who did some performance mods and never had the car on the track.

As an aside that is semi-related, I'd also suggest taking the footwell covers out and looking at the wiring harnesses for evidence of poor splicing by some stupid audio equipment enthusia-ass-t. I was under that part of my car 2 weekends ago and there were a bunch of stripped back wires covered in electrical tape where the previous owner had obviously been looking for 12V. Sometimes you gotta splice, but do it with care.

[kaiv]

Gotta love the "track-trashed" assumption!

The only people who are scared of "tracked" cars are the ones that don't track themselves :drumroll: It all stems from ignorance really.

Track guys as opposed to "car enthusiasts" in general are a much smaller group and they also tend to know cars a lot better and take care of their cars a lot better. Warm up procedures, fluid intervals etc. Everything has to be in top shape, all the time.

That also means keeping a closer eye on your car. I personally put my car on a lift every couple track days to visually inspect everything to ensure all is well and if something isn't it is replaced/fixed right away.

As for a PPI in San Diego there is myself or the great people @ Marco Polo BMW in La Jolla (fantastic indy). Feel free to PM me for details!

[Richbot]

Wheel stud conversion is a dead giveaway

Would also not hesitate to buy a tracked car, but would not hesitate to subtract the wear and tear from the fair market value of the car either.

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by kaiv

As for a PPI in San Diego there is myself or the great people @ Marco Polo BMW in La Jolla (fantastic indy). Feel free to PM me for details!

Thanks!

The magnaflow is still drivign me nuts - it has been on and off several times. I am trying resonators next, then I might be done with it! LOL!

[will.c]

I definitely agree with the theory that regularly tracked cars have better maintenance, but another thing to consider is that 10,000 miles on the track is not the same as 10,000 miles on the street.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

The vast majority of tracked cars are the most regularly, most carefully and the best maintained cars that I see. All of the fluids are changed far more often. They are up on a lift getting a thorough inspection before each event. Small issues or potential issues are corrected immediately - and properly.

That beats the tar out of poorly maintained cars driven by people who intend to own it for a short time and then turn it into someone else's longer term problem.

You might ask your friend just what he is specifically worried about.

Spot on.

Looking at my tires and brakes you'd know. But mechanically, cosmetically, my tracked M3 is in better condition than the vast majority with similar mileage and age. (Clear bra helps..)

[apecush]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

If you are looking for a used M3 and specifically want a tracked one that has been maintained better, how would you spot it on the lot?

I think the brakes should be a fairly good giveaway too. You aren't going to see heat checking on the rotors or slightly discolored calipers from normal road driving.

[Estoril Blue]

Originally Posted by will.c

I definitely agree with the theory that regularly tracked cars have better maintenance, but another thing to consider is that 10,000 miles on the track is not the same as 10,000 miles on the street.

I may respectfully challenge that notion.

I don't see why that would be the case on a well-maintained, regularly inspected M3.

Lets look at the converse:

We know that plenty of street-only M3 owners fail to maintain their cars, skip Inspections, use non-spec oil, vastly delay oil changes until the top of the engine looks like the La Brea Tar Pits, enjoy the thrill of high RPM clutch dumps from a standing start and generally treat the car and the drivetrain like crud.

I don't see premature failures in various generations of M3s that could reasonably be attributed to HPDEs. The only exception to that that I could name might be wheel bearings - and even those take years of track duty to come due. Its not like worn wheel bearings are a big deal.


IMO

[OC3]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

The vast majority of tracked cars are the most regularly, most carefully and the best maintained cars that I see. All of the fluids are changed far more often. They are up on a lift getting a thorough inspection before each event. Small issues or potential issues are corrected immediately - and properly.

That beats the tar out of poorly maintained cars driven by people who intend to own it for a short time and then turn it into someone else's longer term problem.

You might ask your friend just what he is specifically worried about.

Agreed. My leased 2011 M3 I just traded in with 50+ track days on it certainly fits that description.

However, I also know of another tracked M3 that was turned in which barely got basic maintenance done while it was tracked as it was a lease. Depends on the mindset of the owner.

Anyhow, some people, whether they track or not, simply don't want tracked car. Buyer's money, buyer's choice.

Originally Posted by Richbot

Wheel stud conversion is a dead giveaway

Would also not hesitate to buy a tracked car, but would not hesitate to subtract the wear and tear from the fair market value of the car either.

Not necessarily. I know of a TON of M3's here in SoCal that have stud conversions (as well as BBK's, $3,000 coilovers, etc) that are not tracked. Hard parkers.

Originally Posted by LiM3y

I'd buy a tracked car too. The question here is how would you spot one on the lot?

If my buddy is squeamish about it, that's his decision. We talked about it and I said that a tracked car is better maintained, with regular oil and fluid changes.

I'll rephrase the question:

If you are looking for a used M3 and specifically want a tracked one that has been maintained better, how would you spot it on the lot?

Some indications such as power steering fluid were already mentioned. Other signs might be... scrubbed/worn front fender liners (from 275+ front tires), paint chips on the front bumper & hood, headlights & windshield, missing tow hook cover, etc.

[will.c]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

I may respectfully challenge that notion.

I don't see why that would be the case on a well-maintained, regularly inspected M3.

Lets look at the converse:

We know that plenty of street-only M3 owners fail to maintain their cars, skip Inspections, use non-spec oil, vastly delay oil changes until the top of the engine looks like the La Brea Tar Pits, enjoy the thrill of high RPM clutch dumps from a standing start and generally treat the car and the drivetrain like crud.

I don't see premature failures in various generations of M3s that could reasonably be attributed to HPDEs. The only exception to that that I could name might be wheel bearings - and even those take years of track duty to come due. Its not like worn wheel bearings are a big deal.


IMO

Oh I agree with you completely. The general pattern is definitely there, so if I were to buy one, I'd take my chances on a well-maintained, tracked car than dime a dozen street-only cars owned by an average person.

I guess I meant to say "10,000 miles only at the track." For example, when I was in the market, I saw a nicely track-prepped E46 M3 with only 10k miles, but all of those miles were on the track only. Now it must have been maintained very well. But redlining every gear of every mile of its life must wear things out faster than "normal," you know what I mean?

I heard that estimated equivalency is somewhere between 1 mile on track = 3-10 miles on street. This is probably just someone's guess rather than a scientific study, but I think it makes a little bit of sense at least.

[Richard@M-World]

If your titanium exhaust has turned blue/purple...

If your brake rotors are gray instead of silver...

If your front wheels have more than 2.5 deg. of negative camber...

If your car sounds like a garbage truck coming to a stop...

If your radiators are filled with debris...

If you have a NASA annual inspection sticker...

That all I can think of for now.

[AMPowerJ]

You won't find a tracked M3 on the lot. They are all on the track being driven and enjoyed like they are supposed to be.

[Endless619]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

I may respectfully challenge that notion.

I don't see why that would be the case on a well-maintained, regularly inspected M3.

Lets look at the converse:

We know that plenty of street-only M3 owners fail to maintain their cars, skip Inspections, use non-spec oil, vastly delay oil changes until the top of the engine looks like the La Brea Tar Pits, enjoy the thrill of high RPM clutch dumps from a standing start and generally treat the car and the drivetrain like crud.

I don't see premature failures in various generations of M3s that could reasonably be attributed to HPDEs. The only exception to that that I could name might be wheel bearings - and even those take years of track duty to come due. Its not like worn wheel bearings are a big deal.


IMO

You're describing a majority of E46 M3 owners. lol Not to much the E92 or F series coupes. I see it all the time in the older platforms.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by Endless619

You're describing a majority of E46 M3 owners. lol Not to much the E92 or F series coupes. I see it all the time in the older platforms.

As an E46 M3 owner I'm sad to say this is becoming more and more true. As the price of the car drops they fall into the hands of people who can't really afford to maintain them at best or like to ruin cars at worst.

But not to worry, there are still some E46 M3's being well taken care of. I know where at least one is.

[The HACK]

Rotors. There's no way around that. A tracked car would have a very slight blue hue that's impossible to miss to the trained eyes. Even if it's just a single day's worth.

The kind of heat generated by the brake system on a track day is virtually impossible to replicate in street conditions, even if you're an aggressive driver or likes to "carve canyons."