Issues with E85 - car is running very rough? Faulty fuel injector?

[AhsanU]

So it's been a little less than two weeks since I got a PI kit installed from Fuel-It, where the kit uses the JB4 as a port controller. The car ran very well on the E85 that was found near my tuner, and it had no hiccups! Pulled so goddamned hard that I couldn't believe that I could do more to it. The only issue my tuner ran into was a faulty ethanol analyser, so I had to get a new one from Fuel-It, which I did today. The analyser is supposed to go on the car next week, which is when it'll be on the dyno and should be fine tuned.

On the drive home tonight, I noticed an odd smell coming from somewhere. Then I felt the car become very jittery, and it started revving very roughly. I immediately dropped speed, opened the JB4 app, connected to my car, and started logging.

Here's a link to the log I was able to record: check out the fuel trim.. that cannot be right.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9...UJOOXAwa1MtYmM

Here is also the JB4 Map 6 settings my tuner made:



After leaving the car for about 2 hours, I went back and tried turning it on. It took an extra 1 second to actually crank and turn over. The idle was extremely rough, and any sort of throttle input pissed it off and made it sound like literal gunshots were going through my exhaust (not the good kind from PTF's bootmod3 burble tune either ) After exiting the car, I noticed the smell.. it literally smelled like my car had been doused in ethanol. I know the smell because it is very distinct, and I smelled it when filling my car up only 2 days ago.

So what's at fault here? Based on the smell and rough idle, I'm inclined to say that the fuel injectors are faulty and it's causing a leak, or there's an injector that's stuck open. It also explains why there have been issues with trying to accelerate hard as of late, since some older logs show that there is too much fuel being injected (low AFR's).. I guess that was sign #1, I just didn't know it then *facepalm* what else could be the issue?

I'm assuming there's nothing I can do through the JB4, and will need to actually get my car inspected by my tuner to see what's at fault here. Either way, I'm very saddened since I don't think I'll be getting this car back until a few days later.. had pretty big plans for the weekend. I was even supposed to go to AutoCouture tomorrow morning to get some coding done since I want some Euro MDM and what not.. don't think that's happening anymore Alex@AUTOcouture

Any thoughts or suggestions? Thank you guys.

[Fast4d]

check for fuel leaks. check the rails/injectors area

I would do it parked away from any structures.

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by Fast4d

check for fuel leaks. check the rails/injectors area

I would do it parked away from any structures.

Car is currently at my tuner's shop. I'll pass along the information.

Where has CaryTheLabelGuy been!

[chetrickerman]

If you can smell raw fuel, you have a fuel leak.

But, what spark plugs are you running?

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

If you can smell raw fuel, you have a fuel leak.

But, what spark plugs are you running?

Yeap, just don't know where the fuel leak is. Part of the reason that I think there's an issue with the injector is because the car would start sputtering and "surging" at higher RPM when pushed hard. I know it can't be the spark plugs because they're upgraded two step colder one's recommended by PTF - the NGK 97506 gapped to 0.018 - 0.020

[chetrickerman]

I can't check the logs, but what is the AFR in that range where it's sputtering?

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

I can't check the logs, but what is the AFR in that range where it's sputtering?

The log in the original post doesn't show any sputtering because I recorded that log when I started noticing the smell of ethanol and the car started driving very rough. Definitely did not want to push the car during then.

Here's a link to the log where I recorded the sputtering/surging issue.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9hw2sKVJIhfM1NEeTU2WWdYbUk/view?usp=drivesdk

The timestamp makes difficult to read but when I floored it it looks like to goes up to 15.1 and stays around 14.6. When the surging ends, AFR goes down to 11.9 or so

[chetrickerman]

The boost and AFR are pretty sporadic, but AFR below 12.0 can make the car misfire and feel like crap

[TPG Tuning]

Did you recently update your jb4 firmware? Also is your PI setup correctly? It could be running the PI at idle. Also if you do not have a LPFP you can still have issues running full e85. In my experience even 60% ethanol will have issues even with PI with no LPFP upgrade.

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by TPG Tuning

Did you recently update your jb4 firmware? Also is your PI setup correctly? It could be running the PI at idle. Also if you do not have a LPFP you can still have issues running full e85. In my experience even 60% ethanol will have issues even with PI with no LPFP upgrade.

I did not do anything with the JB4 as I'm not familiar with it. I gave it to my tuner, and he installed everything. He's done multiple PI kits and has had no issues. He also told me on Saturday that he pulled the PI kit and the car is still running bad, so I'm not sure if it's the actual PI setup.

I've been told by numerous people that an LPFP is needed to run the kit, but again - was told by the tuner that it isn't 100% necessary until I go upgraded turbos.

How many hours installation does the LPFP entail? What parts are needed? I'd like a rough estimate to know how much it's going to cost. I'm figuring I may as well do it now to avoid any further headache with E85 and PS2 in the future.

Thank you for the info!

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by TPG Tuning

Did you recently update your jb4 firmware? Also is your PI setup correctly? It could be running the PI at idle. Also if you do not have a LPFP you can still have issues running full e85. In my experience even 60% ethanol will have issues even with PI with no LPFP upgrade.

Just got off the phone with Alex, my tuner from TNT Racewerks. He stated that the PI isn't even enabled until about 2500 RPM or so, which is what I assume you meant when you say "running at idle"? So that can't be it.

First thing he asked was if I recently flashed the car, and I stated no, not since I first picked the car up from him where we flashed a bootmod3 map as a BEF. He's disconnected the PI kit and the JB4, and the car is still running bad. Even with the JB4 disconnected, which is what is controlling the fuel, the car is acting bad. So I've asked him to flash the bootmod3 map again and see how it acts.

Sigh, such cumbersome issues

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

Just got off the phone with Alex, my tuner from TNT Racewerks. He stated that the PI isn't even enabled until about 2500 RPM or so, which is what I assume you meant when you say "running at idle"? So that can't be it.

First thing he asked was if I recently flashed the car, and I stated no, not since I first picked the car up from him where we flashed a bootmod3 map as a BEF. He's disconnected the PI kit and the JB4, and the car is still running bad. Even with the JB4 disconnected, which is what is controlling the fuel, the car is acting bad. So I've asked him to flash the bootmod3 map again and see how it acts.

Sigh, such cumbersome issues

Good luck, at least you're able to flash back to stock for troubleshooting!

[AhsanU]

My tuner flashed the stock ZCP map the car came in - car is still running very rich and not well. He checked the fuel rail too - found nothing abnormal. PI, JB4, and bootmod3 all disabled and the car is still running poorly.

He's going to try and drain every ounce of ethanol that's in the car and fill her up with 93 octane. The hope is that it's an issue with the spark plugs that were used. Maybe they were faulty ones, but that's the hope.

TPG Tuning could this really be a result of a lack of a lpfp? I'm not exactly sure of the role of a low pressure fuel pump to be honest.

If the issue isn't spark plug trusted, then there's a serious "mechanical" issue with the car, to which my tuner suggested I take the car to a BMW dealership and have them diagnose it. I'm very much so against that, and would rather have AutoCouture do everything. Dealerships will severely overcharge but at least I'll have a loaner car? I'm not even sure at this point, but is it strange that I trust AutoCouture in diagnosing the issue and fixing it moreso than the dealer?

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

Car is currently at my tuner's shop. I'll pass along the information.

Where has CaryTheLabelGuy been!

Sorry guys, I've been super busy testing and tuning and just haven't had the time to check the forum in a few months.

You need to change your plugs (NGK 97506) and gap them down to 0.018 and see if this fixes it. How many miles on your current plugs? Are they stock?

I've seen this a bunch of times, when plugs finally become a serious issue, the engine will misfire even at idle.

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Sorry guys, I've been super busy testing and tuning and just haven't had the time to check the forum in a few months.

You need to change your plugs (NGK 97506) and gap them down to 0.018 and see if this fixes it. How many miles on your current plugs? Are they stock?

I've seen this a bunch of times, when plugs finally become a serious issue, the engine will misfire even at idle.

The car currently has NGK 97506 gapped to .018. The tuner may have improperly installed them, we'll soon find out.

But we found out the issue - cylinder #6 has a mixture of oil and fuel in it somehow. It's only #6 too. The oil filter has also been contaminated by fuel as well.

I'm currently at AutoCouture having the car inspected by their foreman. If this issue can't be fixed then the car is going back to stock and going to BMW.

Also, glad to see you posting again Cary! Your feedback on any matter is appreciated by us mortals that aren't as educated and enjoy second opinions

[AhsanU]

Update:

I was right - fuel injector issue. Cylinder #6 had a faulty OEM injector and the part has been installed on my car, and the injector is spraying normally. AutoCouture will be putting parts of the car back together and make sure everything is okay tomorrow, for me to pick her up the day after.

I suspected it was a fuel injector issue from day 1, but I felt it was necessary to take the car back to the last person to touch it, which in this case was TNT Racewerks located in Deer Park, LI, and have them take a look at it. The owner, Alex, is a nice guy, but he didn't come through as much as AutoCouture has. I left the car at Alex's shop for a week, hoping he'd take a look at it for free since it started acting up after he touched it, but that wasn't the case. At the end, he charged me $400, and I left his shop with knowledge that it was cylinder #6 that had an issue, and not much else. He was unable to perform a compression test to verify any cylinder issues. It is rather frustrating because he advised me to take all my mods off, order a new DME, have it coded, then take it to BMW to have them fix it.

Instead, I took it to AutoCouture, their shop foreman was able to pull the plugs, inspect everything, and see the issue (took only 3.5 hours to accomplish), and we ordered an injector that very same evening. Had I done this earlier in the week, I bet I'd have my car by now, but I took it to them on Friday.

I'm not sure anyone has come across my same issue after running E85, but the early symptoms of this issue are this: surging at mid~higher RPM under high load/full throttle. It'll feel like you're bouncing off a rev limiter, then it'll go after a second or so, there will be no traction control lights going off. Everything else will feel fine, so you won't suspect a misfire, or the fact that the car is running rich. If your AFR's are low, and the fuel trims are low as well, have your car checked out before it starts misfiring extremely badly and it spraying fuel absolutely everywhere

Fair bit of advice to anyone looking to seriously mod their car so they don't make the same mistakes as me - take your car to a reputable shop. AutoCouture is known to charge a bit more for labour, but it's fucking worth it. Had I just gone with my gut feeling, I would've saved $400, but I was compelled to take it back to the tuner that modified it last, since it made the most sense at the time.

Will report back Wednesday with findings. At this point this thread is just a log for anyone else that may run into similar issues as me haha

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

Update:

I was right - fuel injector issue. Cylinder #6 had a faulty OEM injector and the part has been installed on my car, and the injector is spraying normally. AutoCouture will be putting parts of the car back together and make sure everything is okay tomorrow, for me to pick her up the day after.

I suspected it was a fuel injector issue from day 1, but I felt it was necessary to take the car back to the last person to touch it, which in this case was TNT Racewerks located in Deer Park, LI, and have them take a look at it. The owner, Alex, is a nice guy, but he didn't come through as much as AutoCouture has. I left the car at Alex's shop for a week, hoping he'd take a look at it for free since it started acting up after he touched it, but that wasn't the case. At the end, he charged me $400, and I left his shop with knowledge that it was cylinder #6 that had an issue, and not much else. He was unable to perform a compression test to verify any cylinder issues. It is rather frustrating because he advised me to take all my mods off, order a new DME, have it coded, then take it to BMW to have them fix it.

Instead, I took it to AutoCouture, their shop foreman was able to pull the plugs, inspect everything, and see the issue (took only 3.5 hours to accomplish), and we ordered an injector that very same evening. Had I done this earlier in the week, I bet I'd have my car by now, but I took it to them on Friday.

I'm not sure anyone has come across my same issue after running E85, but the early symptoms of this issue are this: surging at mid~higher RPM under high load/full throttle. It'll feel like you're bouncing off a rev limiter, then it'll go after a second or so, there will be no traction control lights going off. Everything else will feel fine, so you won't suspect a misfire, or the fact that the car is running rich. If your AFR's are low, and the fuel trims are low as well, have your car checked out before it starts misfiring extremely badly and it spraying fuel absolutely everywhere

Fair bit of advice to anyone looking to seriously mod their car so they don't make the same mistakes as me - take your car to a reputable shop. AutoCouture is known to charge a bit more for labour, but it's fucking worth it. Had I just gone with my gut feeling, I would've saved $400, but I was compelled to take it back to the tuner that modified it last, since it made the most sense at the time.

Will report back Wednesday with findings. At this point this thread is just a log for anyone else that may run into similar issues as me haha

It's very possible, but I don't think that "stutter" you were having had anything to do with this issue.

Improper tuning for full E85 is usually the culprit for the high RPM stutter guys running straight E85 (with PI) experience (beyond plug/gap issues). It can usually be fixed with proper tuning. I've been running straight E85 for many months now with ZERO port injection on my M4. Details on the latter will be coming soon.

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

It's very possible, but I don't think that "stutter" you were having had anything to do with this issue.

Improper tuning for full E85 is usually the culprit for the high RPM stutter guys running straight E85 (with PI) experience (beyond plug/gap issues). It can usually be fixed with proper tuning. I've been running straight E85 for many months now with ZERO port injection on my M4. Details on the latter will be coming soon.

+1 i was just going to mention this!

Its not the first time I've seen cars throwing all bunch of issues after leaving that shop OP!

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

It's very possible, but I don't think that "stutter" you were having had anything to do with this issue.

Improper tuning for full E85 is usually the culprit for the high RPM stutter guys running straight E85 (with PI) experience (beyond plug/gap issues). It can usually be fixed with proper tuning. I've been running straight E85 for many months now with ZERO port injection on my M4. Details on the latter will be coming soon.

Originally Posted by FSociety

+1 i was just going to mention this!

Its not the first time I've seen cars throwing all bunch of issues after leaving that shop OP!

Well, I got the car back and it's running okay. No misfiring at all but there might be issues when pushing it hard. I floored it in 3rd gear and the car was micro stuttering throughout the rev band. It's not like before where I was hitting a wall, it was more like very gradual rising in revs with small stutters and hissing throughout. Not sure if it's traction related, but I'll turn everything off tonight and floor it again. I got GTS coding done so my car has euro MDM and everything, so I could not tell during the run if it was traction related.

Tuning-wise, the only thing he could've tuned is the JB4, correct? Do the numbers that's in there original post look fishy? Or is there no way to tell without getting on a dyno?

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

Well, I got the car back and it's running okay. No misfiring at all but there might be issues when pushing it hard. I floored it in 3rd gear and the car was micro stuttering throughout the rev band. It's not like before where I was hitting a wall, it was more like very gradual rising in revs with small stutters and hissing throughout. Not sure if it's traction related, but I'll turn everything off tonight and floor it again. I got GTS coding done so my car has euro MDM and everything, so I could not tell during the run if it was traction related.

Tuning-wise, the only thing he could've tuned is the JB4, correct? Do the numbers that's in there original post look fishy? Or is there no way to tell without getting on a dyno?

Bro. Hit me on email.

[Fast4d]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

I've been running straight E85 for many months now with ZERO port injection on my M4. Details on the latter will be coming soon.

[jeff@autocouture]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

Well, I got the car back and it's running okay. No misfiring at all but there might be issues when pushing it hard. I floored it in 3rd gear and the car was micro stuttering throughout the rev band. It's not like before where I was hitting a wall, it was more like very gradual rising in revs with small stutters and hissing throughout. Not sure if it's traction related, but I'll turn everything off tonight and floor it again. I got GTS coding done so my car has euro MDM and everything, so I could not tell during the run if it was traction related.

Tuning-wise, the only thing he could've tuned is the JB4, correct? Do the numbers that's in there original post look fishy? Or is there no way to tell without getting on a dyno?

Hey dude! glad it worked out! i know your coming back in a couple weeks, you never hit me back up after that drive home everything ok or is it still breaking up a bit? Lemme know !