Instructor and student killed: thoughts

[PrimeBMW]

http://jalopnik.com/racing-instructo...day-1792294047

This accident brought up some of my thoughts regarding instructing. Safety is one thing to consider when instructing/coaching. I instructed 6-8 times before i decided that was enough and went back to just driving. Don't get my wrong some drivers are a pleasure to work with. Some may even be on bimmerpost. But I also had some less than ideal situations:
The guy with ADHD that popped some pills right be for pit out.
Guy with a C2 Vette, lap belts, fiberglass body panels, exhaust fumes were so bad I had to hold my breath in some parts of the track, blew the engine by the end of the day. This car look in beautiful shape but thank god it was slow. Drove like a softly sprung miata.
Supercharged Camero with a half cage and 3 point belts that rubbed on said cage. I would not ride with him at first. We did a lead follow. He turned out to be an excellent student with circle track experience........started slow and then built up and with no ego.
So nearly half of my students I had a concern for my safety. Keep in mind that I am very particular with safety equipment. At this point it is just not worth the risk to save a few hundred dollars. Keep in mind I don't say this without a lot of thought. I want to support the track day community and grow our little hobbie.
How about other instructors or even student that have experienced some sketchy situations. What are your thoughts?
PS I seek out track day orgs that are safe and simply avoid ones that are not.

[Z K]

I used to instruct people at track days about 10 years ago. It is pretty stressful at times and you have no down time between riding and driving.

For the most part, most of the people I've sat with are cool and listen to feedback. There were a few that did not listen. A word with the track organizer and they'd cool it or get kicked out.

I did have the exact opposite of a hot head with me... the guy only felt safe driving under 60mph. You can tell he was scared when the speeds went up. I told him that's fine as it's his track day. We worked on his lines and pointed by everyone who came up. I nearly fell asleep during the sessions though...

I no longer instruct... I think it has to do with being more experienced now and not having as much time to hang out at the track. I'd rather pay full price than instruct and get a 1/2 day of driving in.

The track day organizers I worked with were always very good. If a student weren't listening, I'd have a word with the organizer and they'd get kicked out. I mostly instructed with car clubs and such so they were not in it to make money - they were just out to have fun and host events on their off days.

I can see how the Las Vegas setting is different. They are out to make money so they rather not turn down anyone's money who shows up. Also, there's an incentive for the person to drive more carefully in their own car as they want to go home in one piece - not so in a rental exotic car.

[Estoril Blue]

The problem with the "Drive an Exotic!" format is the instructor has a person completely unknown to him, probably with zero experience on a track who want to have/paid for a thrilling fun time in something between 3 and 6 laps in a car that they are completely unfamiliar with. Couple that with a venue that has high speed sections with real walls.

I have coached at such events (only a few) and the range of paying drivers spans the nervous, hesitant and reluctant - to the "hold my beer and marvel at my driving" types. Unlike having a 2-day student that you can do an intro discussion with (and who is familiar with the car and wants to drive it home intact) - the jump-in-and-drive model is very different - and has different risks.
----

As far as HPDEs - the meet & greet intro meeting speaks volumes. And the first half lap tells a lot. Commercial sponsors usually have a different take on safety as a priority. Some don't even run Tech and put car condition completely on the Instructor. Emphasis is on returning business.

BMWCCA and PCA run safe, well structured events. I won't ride in a car with weird harness setups, problem seat belts, drama with brakes or tires or anything else that is just plain not right. I'm not getting paid to instruct or to take greater risks than normal doing it. Just because the driver is ignorant of or indifferent to certain risks - doesn't mean that I am.

As you note - it can go the other way as well. I was at a PCA event where I inherited a driver that two instructors had walked away from the prior day. I was told why and was told that I could pass after a meet & greet. When he saw that a 3rd instructor had been assigned - he was less than elated. I asked what the prior day was like - and listened. I asked him to give me a fair chance for one session - and told him that I'd give him a clean slate in return. We got into a good working rhythm and he settled-in and got more done in one run session that he had in the the entire day before.

I'll note that the Vegas deaths Sunday follow the death in Florida last year at a similar event. Which followed the Summit Point instructor fatality and the other Summit Point incident which left another instructor permanently and seriously injured.

[Richbot]

Go pro + obd datalogging + f&c violation enforcement = no need for in car instructors anymore

[Killerfish2012]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. HPDE needs government regulations.

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. HPDE needs government regulations.

This wasn't at a HPDE event, it was at an arrive and drive exotic car business which runs on a track with no corner workers and no emergency responders.

[M3 Number 86]

My friend went to this a month ago. Instructor had less experience than him. Also no track safety service. Keep overhead low. Well this happens then.

The amount of smoke seen from the videos are insane.

[bigjae1976]

This event in question is much different than HPDE...its an experience vs an educational event.

This is my saying...careful who you HPDE with. I enjoy instructing with some DE orgs and refuse to instruct with some others on the basis of safety concerns. I was going to give up instructing but I've met too many great people to quit.

[roastbeef]

i had a track day last year where i opted for the professional instruction. the instructor declined to ride with me citing safety concerns regarding unnecessary risks if he could use video and data logging. i was ok with it- it made sense. the instructor was skilled enough to be able to dissect my driving and provide advice, feedback, and instruction while playing back my video after i came in from a session. there were several key points he had me implement that i was able to apply immediately and keep working on every track day thereafter (and the lap times kept dropping). it was a really good experience and gave me a new perspective on hpde instruction.

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i had a track day last year where i opted for the professional instruction. the instructor declined to ride with me citing safety concerns regarding unnecessary risks if he could use video and data logging. i was ok with it- it made sense. the instructor was skilled enough to be able to dissect my driving and provide advice, feedback, and instruction while playing back my video after i came in from a session. there were several key points he had me implement that i was able to apply immediately and keep working on every track day thereafter (and the lap times kept dropping). it was a really good experience and gave me a new perspective on hpde instruction.

Good example, especially regarding instruction for advanced drivers. The bulk of modern instruction could be delivered this way, if cars are prepped with the necessary tech, which could be standardized. And you can still get rides with your instructor' in his or her car, which I find most illuminating for intermediate drivers.

Finally novices can still be instructed the old way, and the risk is least in these cases.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i had a track day last year where i opted for the professional instruction. the instructor declined to ride with me citing safety concerns regarding unnecessary risks if he could use video and data logging. i was ok with it- it made sense. the instructor was skilled enough to be able to dissect my driving and provide advice, feedback, and instruction while playing back my video after i came in from a session. there were several key points he had me implement that i was able to apply immediately and keep working on every track day thereafter (and the lap times kept dropping). it was a really good experience and gave me a new perspective on hpde instruction.

Being old school here...but I think there are certain people that would have a lot of difficulty learning in this manner. Especially newer drivers. Instructors are supposed to be the calm voice when it starts going wrong. Things like..."DON'T LIFT, DON'T LIFT" or "if you keep doing that, you'll be off track". You'll never get that with remote instructing. Or at least never get that in time. The instructor has to look at data, translate it into some useful information and then communicate with the student. If you're in the car, you can tell them right away.

I realize what I've just said is the precise reason why there is a movement at some level to go to remote instruction. I think HPDE takes a huge hit and even dies. The biggest role of an instructor is to do everything within their power to bring the occupants and the car to the finish without a major incident. If HPDE takes a hit, then time trials, club racing, and all of the amateur racing/motorsports take a major hit. HPDE feeds those organization.

I don't see high HP cars and their drivers as the biggest issue. 200hp or 1000hp, really doesn't matter. The instructor needs to be in control at all times. PERIOD. Those who are not shouldn't be instructing. Except for the first couple of times...every time I've had a spin/off or my student had a spin, you can see it coming if you're paying attention. Instructors need to be held accountable for their performance. Trains, bad offs/spins, off/spins in odd locations, over aggressive driving...all an indication of an instructor not being in control.

I think the problem is HPDE is growing faster than they can produce instructors, not even talking about good ones (not claiming to be one). I could instruct almost every weekend when I lived in TX. Most of the time, you get free or reduced track time. Which is fine but it comes to a point where instructing becomes a hobby to a serious, life altering commitment. For free track time to serve as compensation, that means I have to drive. Running my car every weekend is unaffordable for me and I also have this wife and some kids I need to pay attention to.

So HPDE as a whole is at a crossroads. They can replace the instructors with automation. Remote instructing...5-6 students for 1 instructor. Or they can start compensating instructors.

Remember...every DE org needs to break even. Some are trying to make a living (which is a good thing for us, right?).

[roastbeef]

thats a frustration i haven't experienced yet, as i haven't reached an instructor level skill set. i think eventually i may instruct, as i like talking about driving/etc.. i might be able to help a first or second day driver, but thats about it.
i have become a bit leery of "instructors", mostly from going to and hearing about events where they are looking for instructors. i'd be pissed if i paid for instruction and got some dick like me trying to get discounted track time. i'd bet i would qualify to instruct at some of these events, even though i wouldn't because i don't feel like it is right.

named instructors with a resume of racing? hell yea! sign me up.

[z3papa]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

The problem with the "Drive an Exotic!" format is the instructor has a person completely unknown to him, probably with zero experience on a track who want to have/paid for a thrilling fun time in something between 3 and 6 laps in a car that they are completely unfamiliar with. Couple that with a venue that has high speed sections with real walls....

I've instructed at two of these events with the first at IMS. It was two day event with the first day being "corporate" which meant the same drivers came around 8-10 times. By the end of the day, they were either fairly improved and really getting it, still slow or way over confident and dangerous. The course ran in the infield in the opposite direction to the banked track where the 2 man Indy car was running. The worst of the worst was actually trying to get a reaction. I simply asked if he had $250,000 if we parked it into the wall.

A month or two after my last event, an instructor and student died in a wreck down in Florida. I started feeling like the pay wasn't worth the risk.

[dogbone]

I had a sort of interesting experience the one time I was labeled an official instructor that clearly showed me, you just don’t know what you’re gonna get when you hop in a random car.

I was asked to be an instructor at a private day at Auto Club Speedway - Roval course (where you do 2/3 of the banked oval and then turn off the oval into an in-field road course). The deal was, if I instructed once or twice, I could drive and eat for free. I don't particularly enjoy being on track in the passenger seat, but what the heck, I decided to go for it.

They set it up so that a group of instructors would wait in pit lane and they left it to the instructors to decide who would jump in which car. I figured I'd try to get in the mellowest car I could find.

After a number of decently powerful late model vehicles went through, a dude showed up in pit lane with a humble OEM-looking BMW Z3----street tires and no obvious mods. Perfect! I jumped in, and the guy said he’d never been on track and didn't want to get crazy---just wanted to feel out the car. Even better! I talked to him briefly about being smooth on the controls and a couple other general ideas and away we went.

We did the out-lap and all was mellow. Then we get onto the banked oval and he floors the gas and the car TOOK OFF LIKE A ROCKET!!! Mind you, I have a supercharger in an E90 M3 that weighs 3250lbs. I think I know what brisk acceleration is. Most basic Z3’s should have 170hp.....not exactly rocket territory. So now I'm unsure of the situation because we're in something small and fairly light with a short wheelbase with obviously a ton of power, but with street tires....and we're on a banked OVAL.

It turns out this was a concept build from some custom shop. This Z3 had an LS engine with a big blower strapped on. It had a gazillion horsepower. I asked him to take it easy because Turn 1 on the Oval is not the friendliest place for a novice with a powerful car.

It all turned out fine, but what I ultimately learned was that, as an instructor, you can just never know what kind of situation you're getting into…..He was a nice guy, but c’mon.....why didn't he AT LEAST MENTION that there was a monster lurking under the hood!?

At the BMW Performance Driving schools in South Carolina and California, they teach via radios in the cars. One instructor sits outside and watches his group of 5 or 6 cars doing an exercise and gives feedback to each person in realtime.

[Kong Sheng Han]

I'd rather have an instructor in the passenger seat.

[z3papa]

Originally Posted by dogbone

I had a sort of interesting experience the one time I was labeled an official instructor that clearly showed me, you just don’t know what you’re gonna get when you hop in a random car.

I was asked to be an instructor at a private day at Auto Club Speedway - Roval course (where you do 2/3 of the banked oval and then turn off the oval into an in-field road course). The deal was, if I instructed once or twice, I could drive and eat for free. I don't particularly enjoy being on track in the passenger seat, but what the heck, I decided to go for it.

They set it up so that a group of instructors would wait in pit lane and they left it to the instructors to decide who would jump in which car. I figured I'd try to get in the mellowest car I could find.

After a number of decently powerful late model vehicles went through, a dude showed up in pit lane with a humble OEM-looking BMW Z3----street tires and no obvious mods. Perfect! I jumped in, and the guy said he’d never been on track and didn't want to get crazy---just wanted to feel out the car. Even better! I talked to him briefly about being smooth on the controls and a couple other general ideas and away we went.

We did the out-lap and all was mellow. Then we get onto the banked oval and he floors the gas and the car TOOK OFF LIKE A ROCKET!!! Mind you, I have a supercharger in an E90 M3 that weighs 3250lbs. I think I know what brisk acceleration is. Most basic Z3’s should have 170hp.....not exactly rocket territory. So now I'm unsure of the situation because we're in something small and fairly light with a short wheelbase with obviously a ton of power, but with street tires....and we're on a banked OVAL.

It turns out this was a concept build from some custom shop. This Z3 had an LS engine with a big blower strapped on. It had a gazillion horsepower. I asked him to take it easy because Turn 1 on the Oval is not the friendliest place for a novice with a powerful car.

It all turned out fine, but what I ultimately learned was that, as an instructor, you can just never know what kind of situation you're getting into…..He was a nice guy, but c’mon.....why didn't he AT LEAST MENTION that there was a monster lurking under the hood!?

At the BMW Performance Driving schools in South Carolina and California, they teach via radios in the cars. One instructor sits outside and watches his group of 5 or 6 cars doing an exercise and gives feedback to each person in realtime.

Pretty funny as I came out of a full STR prepped Z3 that I pushed to every rule allowance under the sun before moving to the M3. The car, at 2700#, even when really sorted out, was a handful to drive at the limit where you always had to be ready for counter measures. My car had about 250 hp. I'm pretty certain I know the car you are referencing. I once had an instructor who had two students look at me and my old car, asked about mods, and said he was going out with the other student in a C6Z06. He said that I should give him a signal to pass during the first run session, and he'd assess moving me up. First lap, I go around and he only saw me for about 20 seconds more. He came up afterwards and moved me out of that run group saying I had no business running with them. Getting instructors into a vert even with full roll cage and 6 points is tough.

[Golddots]

I only instructed a few days and decided it wasn't for me. A year after I stopped there was a fatality at my local track with the club I instructed with. If I ever go on track again it may only be with PC's of bmwcca and in a fully caged car.

[Golddots]

Most new people who hit the track do not realize how serious it is. I did at least 30 autocrosses before my first hpde. Every car I drove had a welded in roll bar with 6 pt harnesses and FIA approved seats in both seats.

Now people sign up with no knowledge driving 400hp plus cars. It isn't worth the risk. It is highly rewarding when you improve your students though. I have great respect for hpde instructors. Especially those who can drive AND teach well.

[roastbeef]

i'm digging this discussion. maybe something we can all learn as we may progress to a level of skill that allows us to instruct is to take 5-10 minutes to talk to a student and get a feel for their background. how many track days? mods on the car? a quick refresh on track etiquette, and other things that might help give some insight (videogames [lol], karting, other vehicle experience). if someone is oblivious to some parts of the conversation, you get a feel for the level of skill you're dealing with.

[Richbot]

I have had a student seem perfectly reasonable, say all the right things, be really humble and listen well for many laps, and then toss his relatively low-powered, easily controlled car off the track anyway at 35mph in a 70mph corner because he just decided not to turn when directed that lap. 35mph is enough to get you killed.

The fact is, passenger-seat instructors are just bags of meat with no options if a driver decides to be an ass or just incompetent, other than doing something stupid like grabbing the wheel or the handbrake. Ejecting the driver from the event after the damage is done is no help.

We can rebuild instructors, we have the technology, we can make instructors better, stronger, faster. People have been teaching remotely at single-seat schools for decades. If a student shows up without video, or it's not working, that session is scrubbed till he gets it rigged up. For meaningful improvement past a certain point, datalogging is a must, but video, coupled with good corner working from F&C and trackside instructor observation, is enough to A) enforce the rules and B) teach someone to be safe in a performance driving environment. Any student can rig it up with a phone, a power cord, a dash mount and $100.


I know there are people who think taking side seaters out of the cars is a bad idea for various reasons I understand them and agree it's not an easy choice to make. But those people are wrong and I'm right and they won't change my mind.

[lcrain]

Most of my buddies at the track are instructors, including my brother. I run advanced and they want me to instruct. I just don't know how I feel about hopping into a strangers car in that environment. Luckily most of the organizations I drive with are well run and organized. Right now I am really enjoying just driving at the events and working on my craft.

The only advantages I see to instructing are making events slightly more affordable and being on track in sessions with my friends, and other drivers who have impeccable etiquette and a fast pace. Even in the advanced groups I get held up at times by drivers in their "faster" (re: more power) car with big egos. I am sure there are instances of satisfaction when you really get to see a driver progress, but the downside seems fairly great.

[bigjae1976]

We dwell on if it goes wrong but how many laps get turned without incident? Not saying it's safe and no need to worry but let's keep things in perspective. If you feel safe instructing...you are a terrible instructor. The danger and risk that run through my head keeps me on top of it.

If you don't want to crash...all the reason more to make sure you do a good job instructing.

As I've said earlier, instructing adds another interesting (in various ways) dimension to HPDE.

I will never forget this fresh off the boat Chinese dude that was sexuality harassing a female driver and couldn't see out the left side because he was 4'10" and the side mirror blocked his view. Missed every apex on the left handers.

I think I got him because cuz I'm Asian. F UUUUUU!!!