Review: Patroon/BMWCCA Calabogie event at Calabogie 7/15

SYT_Shadow · 07-18-2016, 02:41 PM

This was my feedback on the driverseval site. I thought I'd share with the rest of you.
I was very disappointed and beyond just that, I was upset at how poorly managed the event was.

Here's my review

===========

Please be clear: the only reason you are rated a '1' is because it's the lowest possible score. This was the worst experience in over 40 track weekends I have attended.

This was a poorly organized event. No loudspeaker warnings of the classroom sessions or when rungroups are due to go out.
We were told we were having a track walk which was somehow cancelled hours later without warning of any kind, even though a classroom session that day had confirmed we were good.
The food truck did not show up which is a mistake, but after paying $5 for two pizza slices, the food ran out. If you are going to charge people $5 for two slices, for goodness' sake, order plenty of pizza! Again, poor organization

My biggest gripe is the classroom. It is unbelievable that BMW track days have two hours of class a day. Effectively, for every minute of being on the racetrack you spend a minute in the classroom.

This does not make sense. Go to a PCA track day, your direct competitor, and you'll have one session a weekend -or better yet, none- for the more advanced groups. They would never, ever give passwords in each classroom.
This experience reminded me why I stick to PCA events.

I agree this is a driving *education* event, but you are overdoing it by giving a password in each class and request that password on pit out lane to force people to go is ridiculous. We are not children. If someone has skipped every classroom event, the chief instructor can look for him to see what's up
I had a serious car problem and had to go to the mechanic to get it fixed and was not able to attend a classroom and also missed a driving session. I was asked for the password the next time I went out and did not have it.
Despite explaining that I had been at the mechanic shop for the past two hours and had missed my driving session and lunch running back and forth to the ATM downtown, the guy at pit out chewed me out and said my entire explanation did not exonerate me. Mind you, I did not use the previous classroom's password as my car broke down, but no explanation was good enough for the guy in pit out lane!
I guess the only acceptable solution is to not fix a broken car and instead spend your day attending class, only working on the car in the moments the gracious organizers have deemed you are allowed to fix it

Finally, be clear that the absolutely ridiculous policy of 'two wheels off only once over the weekend or you can be invited to leave' in the same classroom slide as 'if you are going to go off, do not pinch the wheel' is a contradiction if there was ever one.
You guys are risking people's lives with this policy and the day someone dies at your event due to pinching a wheel I hope you realize part of the blame is on you and your policy
Two wheels off is not the end of the world. It's different than four wheels off and also different than a spin. Two wheels off is what the driver *should* do when he has overcooked a corner. At most, two off should earn you a pit in to talk to the guys and make sure everything is ok.
Having a policy that only allows one instance of 'two wheels off' is a serious affront to safety. The decision to remove someone from the event should be taken by instructors, the chief instructors and the flaggers for undue danger and aggressiveness.
It is obvious that the second time a person is about to commit the cardinal sin of two wheels off, the driver *will* pinch the corner and do everything in their power to stay on track. This driver, after all, has paid a lot of money for a track weekend and does not want to go home because he overcooked the corner by ten inches. Again, over 100 track days under my belt with organizers all over the Northeast and Mid Pacific and I've never seen something like this.

These may all be the rantings of one of your members, but you are in a competitive landscape where a car owner has a lot of options for track weekends. You should pay attention to what other groups and organizations are doing and try to improve these deficiencies

leo95se · 07-18-2016, 02:55 PM

That's really unfortunate. As an instructor I know how hard it is to run and manage an event while keeping it safe and fun. hope they reply, please keep the thread updated. Did you email bill and Jim? Pm me if you need their addresses.

beats · 07-18-2016, 09:37 PM

OP, was there anything positive about the event ie track etiquette, amt of track time etc? I think there are pro's and con's with any event, and have yet to find a club that 'has everything'. Having said that their push for 'safety' / learning does seem a little over the top.

I have been to many clubs (BMW included) where they don't even have classroom time, while other clubs have passed out cards in class to submit in pit lane. For beginner levels, classroom time is great, especially for drivers with limited experience at that specific track. Sounds like the guys took it a bit too far in your case though.

SYT_Shadow · 07-19-2016, 07:48 AM

Yes, there were positive things

The track is magnificent. I wish it was closer to NYC because I would go more often.

They managed to have 4 25-30 minute sessions per day which is quite good as well

As it's a long drive, this event is never crowded and the 3.2mile track ensures you are not stuck behind trains.

PrimeBMW · 07-19-2016, 10:10 AM

Thank you for posting. I share some of the general frustration and disappointment with BMW CCA track days. A few years ago I traveled 8 hours one direction to Thunderhill with a few advanced driving friends. We were treated like children and with distrust even though we came with reference. It was a very dissatisfying experience that was brought up to instructors, lead instructor, event organizers and even someone higher up in BMW CCA.............hoping some constructive feedback would help and spur some change (because they need some change in high intermediate and advanced). In every instance I was greeted with the attitude of "that is how we run our track days and we will not change". Unfortunately you thread and concerns will probably be met with resistance. Everyone in our group will not attend a BMW CCA track until they change...........I'm not holding my breath.

Edit: In general I am a big BMW CCA fan and long time member............I'm just not a fan of how they run their track days for advanced drivers.

SYT_Shadow · 07-19-2016, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Thank you for posting. I share some of the general frustration and disappointment with BMW CCA track days. A few years ago I traveled 8 hours one direction to Thunderhill with a few advanced driving friends. We were treated like children and with distrust even though we came with reference. It was a very dissatisfying experience that was brought up to instructors, lead instructor, event organizers and even someone higher up in BMW CCA.............hoping some constructive feedback would help and spur some change (because they need some change in high intermediate and advanced). In every instance I was greeted with the attitude of "that is how we run our track days and we will not change". Unfortunately you thread and concerns will probably be met with resistance. Everyone in our group will not attend a BMW CCA track until they change...........I'm not holding my breath.

Edit: In general I am a big BMW CCA fan and long time member............I'm just not a fan of how they run their track days for advanced drivers.

Fortunately, the Ottawa BMWCCA registrar, Dieter, replied to my concerns immediately and says he is looking into the different things as well as clarifying the 2/4/spin rule.

I am honestly surprised at how accepting and willing to hear me out he has been.

The HACK · 07-19-2016, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Fortunately, the Ottawa BMWCCA registrar, Dieter, replied to my concerns immediately and says he is looking into the different things as well as clarifying the 2/4/spin rule.

I am honestly surprised at how accepting and willing to hear me out he has been.

We (the event organizers) are not all the monsters you all think us to be.

Believe you me, there's a reason why all those rules are in place. Different organizations have different threshold/tolerance for pain. For every "they treat me like a f**king child by asking for password!" there's a "douche skipped every driver's meeting, went out there like an idiot, crashed his car and now blames the organization" story. For every "2 wheels off and asked to leave" stories, there's probably a dozen "someone spent half the day getting stuck in the ditch and costing everyone else run time" stories too. For every "I come HIGHLY RECOMMENDED by so-and-so" stories, I've heard just as many "I've raced in [insert organization] for XX numbers of years and I should be in advanced" stories only to find out the guy would struggle to keep up with beginners in his 560HP Corvette.

Not saying anyone is in one camp or another, but I've seen some poorly run organizations that error WAY on the other end of the spectrum, runs a loosey-goosey school, and everyone loves going because it's cheap, no instructors, no download sessions, do whatever you want...Until someone stuffs their car with their girlfriend riding in the passenger seat into a corner worker station.

It's happened. Trust me. Helicopter was involved. Don't know if either participant lived. Even if they had lived, neither will EVER be remotely same again (physically and mentally).

As an event organizer (used to be) myself, I've heard enough of the "you guys suck, I will never run with you ever again" type stories, and 90% of the time it's either a simple mis-understanding, or poorly managed expectations. There's really only about 10% legitimate gripes. I am far more willing to work with people that is willing to give me constructive criticism though, than those that simply vent about their poor experience without giving me a chance to explain and examine how my own organization is run.

Which is part of the reason why I don't do it anymore. DE organizers gets sh*t on and gets ZERO credit. Not that credit is why we work, but if I'm going to catch all the flack and none of the glory, I'd rather be spending my time working and getting paid for it (yes most event organizers, especially for the non-profits like CCA and PCA, don't actually get paid).

SYT_Shadow · 07-19-2016, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The HACK

We (the event organizers) are not all the monsters you all think us to be.

Hack

I have not stated anyone is a monster. I have done many track days and routinely thank the organizers and volunteer when needed. Organizers spend massive amounts of time working to make events work for us

If someone in an advanced group is trying to kill himself I don't think a class is going to make a difference. Said idiot should be identified by the CIs and flaggers.

I am sure it is a thankless job.

07-18-2016, 02:41 PM	#1
SYT_Shadow ///M Powered for Life 11490 Rep 10,329 Posts Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Greenwich, CT iTrader: (2)	Review: Patroon/BMWCCA Calabogie event at Calabogie 7/15 This was my feedback on the driverseval site. I thought I'd share with the rest of you. I was very disappointed and beyond just that, I was upset at how poorly managed the event was. Here's my review =========== Please be clear: the only reason you are rated a '1' is because it's the lowest possible score. This was the worst experience in over 40 track weekends I have attended. This was a poorly organized event. No loudspeaker warnings of the classroom sessions or when rungroups are due to go out. We were told we were having a track walk which was somehow cancelled hours later without warning of any kind, even though a classroom session that day had confirmed we were good. The food truck did not show up which is a mistake, but after paying $5 for two pizza slices, the food ran out. If you are going to charge people $5 for two slices, for goodness' sake, order plenty of pizza! Again, poor organization My biggest gripe is the classroom. It is unbelievable that BMW track days have two hours of class a day. Effectively, for every minute of being on the racetrack you spend a minute in the classroom. This does not make sense. Go to a PCA track day, your direct competitor, and you'll have one session a weekend -or better yet, none- for the more advanced groups. They would never, ever give passwords in each classroom. This experience reminded me why I stick to PCA events. I agree this is a driving education event, but you are overdoing it by giving a password in each class and request that password on pit out lane to force people to go is ridiculous. We are not children. If someone has skipped every classroom event, the chief instructor can look for him to see what's up I had a serious car problem and had to go to the mechanic to get it fixed and was not able to attend a classroom and also missed a driving session. I was asked for the password the next time I went out and did not have it. Despite explaining that I had been at the mechanic shop for the past two hours and had missed my driving session and lunch running back and forth to the ATM downtown, the guy at pit out chewed me out and said my entire explanation did not exonerate me. Mind you, I did not use the previous classroom's password as my car broke down, but no explanation was good enough for the guy in pit out lane! I guess the only acceptable solution is to not fix a broken car and instead spend your day attending class, only working on the car in the moments the gracious organizers have deemed you are allowed to fix it Finally, be clear that the absolutely ridiculous policy of 'two wheels off only once over the weekend or you can be invited to leave' in the same classroom slide as 'if you are going to go off, do not pinch the wheel' is a contradiction if there was ever one. You guys are risking people's lives with this policy and the day someone dies at your event due to pinching a wheel I hope you realize part of the blame is on you and your policy Two wheels off is not the end of the world. It's different than four wheels off and also different than a spin. Two wheels off is what the driver should do when he has overcooked a corner. At most, two off should earn you a pit in to talk to the guys and make sure everything is ok. Having a policy that only allows one instance of 'two wheels off' is a serious affront to safety. The decision to remove someone from the event should be taken by instructors, the chief instructors and the flaggers for undue danger and aggressiveness. It is obvious that the second time a person is about to commit the cardinal sin of two wheels off, the driver will pinch the corner and do everything in their power to stay on track. This driver, after all, has paid a lot of money for a track weekend and does not want to go home because he overcooked the corner by ten inches. Again, over 100 track days under my belt with organizers all over the Northeast and Mid Pacific and I've never seen something like this. These may all be the rantings of one of your members, but you are in a competitive landscape where a car owner has a lot of options for track weekends. You should pay attention to what other groups and organizations are doing and try to improve these deficiencies Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 07-18-2016 at 02:46 PM..
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07-18-2016, 02:55 PM	#2
leo95se Captain 126 Rep 938 Posts Drives: '09 e92 M3, '15 F15 X5d Join Date: May 2009 Location: CT iTrader: (3)	That's really unfortunate. As an instructor I know how hard it is to run and manage an event while keeping it safe and fun. hope they reply, please keep the thread updated. Did you email bill and Jim? Pm me if you need their addresses.
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07-18-2016, 09:37 PM	#3
beats Lieutenant 225 Rep 599 Posts Drives: 2015 911 GTS Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	OP, was there anything positive about the event ie track etiquette, amt of track time etc? I think there are pro's and con's with any event, and have yet to find a club that 'has everything'. Having said that their push for 'safety' / learning does seem a little over the top. I have been to many clubs (BMW included) where they don't even have classroom time, while other clubs have passed out cards in class to submit in pit lane. For beginner levels, classroom time is great, especially for drivers with limited experience at that specific track. Sounds like the guys took it a bit too far in your case though.
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07-19-2016, 07:48 AM	#4
SYT_Shadow ///M Powered for Life 11490 Rep 10,329 Posts Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Greenwich, CT iTrader: (2)	Yes, there were positive things The track is magnificent. I wish it was closer to NYC because I would go more often. They managed to have 4 25-30 minute sessions per day which is quite good as well As it's a long drive, this event is never crowded and the 3.2mile track ensures you are not stuck behind trains.
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07-19-2016, 10:10 AM	#5
PrimeBMW Major 662 Rep 1,424 Posts Drives: E46 M3+S62, E92 M3 Join Date: May 2009 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	Thank you for posting. I share some of the general frustration and disappointment with BMW CCA track days. A few years ago I traveled 8 hours one direction to Thunderhill with a few advanced driving friends. We were treated like children and with distrust even though we came with reference. It was a very dissatisfying experience that was brought up to instructors, lead instructor, event organizers and even someone higher up in BMW CCA.............hoping some constructive feedback would help and spur some change (because they need some change in high intermediate and advanced). In every instance I was greeted with the attitude of "that is how we run our track days and we will not change". Unfortunately you thread and concerns will probably be met with resistance. Everyone in our group will not attend a BMW CCA track until they change...........I'm not holding my breath. Edit: In general I am a big BMW CCA fan and long time member............I'm just not a fan of how they run their track days for advanced drivers. Last edited by PrimeBMW; 07-19-2016 at 11:18 AM..
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