Debate: Can BMW detect a Piggyback and will they void your warranty for it

[Myaddiction]

Since this topic always derails any thread it's brought up in figured it should have its own thread. Let me first say I've never seen anything in the last 4 years of tuning turbo BMW's that indicates a piggyback alone caused an engine failure, so this is mainly for the sake of argument.

Seems to be two issues at hand.

Can BMW detect a piggyback after its been removed? YES
Several people and a few vendors claim it can't be seen by BWM since it changes the signals from the sensors hiding the extra boost and airflow. However BMW knows exactly how much fuel the car uses at all temperatures and authorized fuels (E0-E10) so if it is outside that range there is a mechanical failure/change or the tune has been altered. On a stock car the trims stay below 10%. A car with a piggy routinely sees above 20% during wide open throttle but goes back to normal while cruzing. It's very obvious looking at data logs.

Secondly they can take the time it takes for the car to accelerate based on speed or rpm rise over time and determine how much power it takes to accelerate the known mass of the car in the known amount of time. not perfectly accurate due to varying conditions but they can clearly see an extra 80-100 hp. It's how programs like virtual dyno work. http://virtualdyno.net/

Second, will they void your warranty due to a tune?
If you make a warranty claim for a major failed part BMW opens a PUMA case and requests the ECU data. They will see the tune/piggyback data and void the claim. I'm sure someone somewhere has gotten away with it for whatever reason but based on numerous posts on the forums and conversations with many SA's, the claim will not be honored.

Would love to hear from SA's with first hand knowledge of warranty work being denied and why.

[Mandi90TT]

That's an easy answer, to both questions. Maybe, and maybe.

By that, I mean every situation is going to be different, and you are not going to get a definitive answer. You will get anecdotal information from SA, and other folks, and while the plural of anecdote is actually data (despite the popular quote that "the plural of anecdote is not data"), you will not get enough anecdotal evidence to have a definitive answer one way or another.

[parky1215]

Nobody will be able to provide definite answer to this.
Experience will differ depending on the dealer and your relationship with SA.

If someone is so worried about warranty being voided due to tune, then simple suggestion would be not to tune the car at all.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

First, if you modify your car and cause damage as a result, you are responsible for the repairs. Period.

Regarding how the piggyback tuning works, the JB4 for example modifies the fuel trims to keep those within stock specs on the milder maps. BMW has a tuner code detection system that is based around fuel consumption. It's very complex because high trims alone do not indicate a tuner. It's a combination of high trims and high wastegate duty cycle. It was introduced in 2008 with the MSD81 and easily avoided by the better piggybacks. To do this requires fuel pressure control and in some cases wastegate control. In additon CANbus piggybacks can purge incriminating codes and freeze frame data before they are stored into long term memory.

The most common way someone gets flagged is by going in with parts installed especially downpipes or things that you can't easily remove.

Mike

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

That's an easy answer, to both questions. Maybe, and maybe.

By that, I mean every situation is going to be different, and you are not going to get a definitive answer. You will get anecdotal information from SA, and other folks, and while the plural of anecdote is actually data (despite the popular quote that "the plural of anecdote is not data"), you will not get enough anecdotal evidence to have a definitive answer one way or another.

100% agree. I highly doubt any BMW employee would freely share what methods/areas are used to detect tunes (whether it be piggyback or flash-based).

Originally Posted by parky1215

Nobody will be able to provide definite answer to this.
Experience will differ depending on the dealer and your relationship with SA.

If someone is so worried about warranty being voided due to tune, then simple suggestion would be not to tune the car at all.

SAs can only do so much, shop foreman usually calls the shots, along with the higher-ups.

This is clearly an area in which one needs to be ready to "pay to play". One shouldn't expect BMW to cover the bill if something catastrophic happens when pushing the envelope and vendors should make it perfectly clear there is always minimal risk involved. Most aftermarket offering will be perfectly fine, but if you're wanting to push the envelope further: you need to do so at your own risk. It's simply unethical to expect the the vehicle warranty to be your safety net.

Mod conservatively, research, and the and none of this becomes an issue.

[AlphaOmega4]

Sure would be nice if BMW had an M Performance Line Tune... something in the realm of a Stage 1.. for people craving more power.. and BMW getting to make some Extra $$

All while the consumer gets to stay within Warranty Worry Free.

I really want to do the JB1 Tune.. but being that the car is leased and I'm not prepared to battle them if something goes wrong.. I am just gonna have to pass on the Tune..

My only option I suppose is to go with a wider rim and tire package to help get some of the power that is already there down to the ground better

[Clark_Kent]

Standby...it's called the Competition Package.

[nicknaz]

For my experience with N54 I think a tune can definitely be detected if left installed because the car will fail DME programming.

For the piggyback and you have to turn screws to access stuff that's a typical way it is detected

You need to build a GREAT relationship with SA and tech and go to a team that is proven as mod friendly by other forum members

[Zerouali]

Anyone with any computing/electronics experience will tell you that 100% BMW can tell if you have interfered with the ECU. Any tune/remap/box/piggyback will be traceable from the ECU data if BMW decide to look closely enough.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Will they void your warranty? There is no one right or wrong answer to this. It depends on the failure, the tune, your relationship with your dealer, what mood your dealer is in on the day etc.

[thehank]

The answer is YES, ALWAYS!

Let’s end the paranoia…. Do we care? Only if we are trying to fix your, car not changing your oil. If you have drivability issues, you better own up to your modifications and maybe spend a little $$$ to remove it or make sure it’s not the issue. I hear the argument that people say there is so many of “this piggyback” and no one on the internet has this problem it’s the car. The fact is there is a more of “this car” on the road and they don’t have “this problem”.

If you come in with a check engine light and your car has a piggyback its best to be honest. If a technician spends time to try and fix your car only to find out you were the cause of the problem be prepared to spend some $$$ to fix your mistake or expect to be flagged.

You want more power? You buy an inexpensive piggyback that can’t communicate on all bus systems or is inline to let’s say to a MAP sensor but causes drivability issues because it’s cheaply made. You run the risk of spending more $$ to fix your car and possibly voiding your warranty forever.

Or…. You spend a little bit more money, get a DINAN piggyback that does not interrupt vehicle programing, has a warranty and can be serviced or removed at a dealership with no hassles. DINAN pays the dealer if it’s their problem, not you.

Yes several companies offer flash tunes and say they are better, can BMW see? YES. What did you achieve? Nothing, gets flashed over when the car gets programed.

BMW is spending a ton of money in fighting buyback cases and they will not roll over anymore. If it can be proven that you tampered/modified your vehicle and you were the problem expect to pay legal fees.

There is no dealer that is “mod friendly” FACT! You have to pay to play. Be up front and honest or be prepared to pay the consequences in extra repair time or termination of your warranty.

The choice is up to you...

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by Zerouali

Anyone with any computing/electronics experience will tell you that 100% BMW can tell if you have interfered with the ECU. Any tune/remap/box/piggyback will be traceable from the ECU data if BMW decide to look closely enough.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Will they void your warranty? There is no one right or wrong answer to this. It depends on the failure, the tune, your relationship with your dealer, what mood your dealer is in on the day etc.

EXACTLY!! This man gets it!

Its 100% detectable. This is based off of real experience, not reading peoples opinions on a forum. However I will not share details. Sorry.

[verbs]

Originally Posted by thehank

Or…. You spend a little bit more money, get a DINAN piggyback that does not interrupt vehicle programing, has a warranty and can be serviced or removed at a dealership with no hassles. DINAN pays the dealer if it’s their problem, not you.

That's not always a guarantee...one of my local bmw dealers dropped Dinan for not holding up their end of the bargain.

[jwilliams]

I had my last cars data taken from the ECU, sent to BMW HQ to be looked at in depth for any tune or tampering etc on a routine service for some odd reasin. I had a JB4 and downpipes, running a backend flash. I was accused of possibly having a tune according to some data found, (minipulation or some kind) i denied any knowledge and asked to see an actual Map, Piggyback, Module etc etc. They came back with nothing and my warranty was left perfectly intact. So basically unless they can ultimately prove it without reasonable doubt they can do nothing. Leave a tune on, or a piggyback plugged in etc then yes. If not some simple arguing will see you without issue from experience.

[Jorgem2009]

Originally Posted by jwilliams

I had my last cars data taken from the ECU, sent to BMW HQ to be looked at in depth for any tune or tampering etc on a routine service for some odd reasin. I had a JB4 and downpipes, running a backend flash. I was accused of possibly having a tune according to some data found, (minipulation or some kind) i denied any knowledge and asked to see an actual Map, Piggyback, Module etc etc. They came back with nothing and my warranty was left perfectly intact. So basically unless they can ultimately prove it without reasonable doubt they can do nothing. Leave a tune on, or a piggyback plugged in etc then yes. If not some simple arguing will see you without issue from experience.

this was with BMW NA?

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by Myaddiction

Can BMW detect a piggyback after its been removed? YES
... However BMW knows exactly how much fuel the car uses at all temperatures and authorized fuels (E0-E10) ... On a stock car the trims stay below 10%. A car with a piggy routinely sees above 20% during wide open throttle but goes back to normal while cruzing. It's very obvious looking at data logs.
...

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Regarding how the piggyback tuning works, the JB4 for example modifies the fuel trims to keep those within stock specs on the milder maps. BMW has a tuner code detection system that is based around fuel consumption. It's very complex because high trims alone do not indicate a tuner. It's a combination of high trims and high wastegate duty cycle.

I am interested in tackling how does BMW detect modifications wether due to piggyback (JB4) or a tune (VFE/bm3/...)

There are at least two means that are known to the community, direct and indirect. Direct detection is by means of raising a DTC (see example list below), and indirect by analyzing FASTA data (accessible only to BMW and not dealers).

0x107801	Tuningschutz: Luftmasse zu hoch (Tuning protection: Air mass too high)
0x201101	DME, tamper protection: program or data manipulation detected
0x1E5301	Tamper protection: Motor power too high

Collected FASTA data is transmitted to BMW servers when the car is plugged into ISTA. The content of the FASTA data is pretty interesting and encompassing, I've deciphered 95% of it, minus few jobs.

Whether BMW has some system that automatically identifies "special" stuff once FASTA data is transmitted and whether that system raises alarms (ala telco alarms) to some department (piggyback/tuner bounty hunters) is unknown !

I would like to identify the jobs that retrieve that data that is talked about. is there another term used to reference "fuel trims", maybe fuel/air ratio or Total fuel adaption (filling + mixture) Bank1/2? And if anyone has ISTA and JB4 and want to share with me their FASTA data, that'd be very appreciated

[rosenbergendo]

Without specifics BMW mothership has gotten very very very tuned into detecting ECU flashes. They will deny you as the network goes straight to the mothership now and the foreman has little to no say in detection. IE-they won't get paid for the repair on a tune
A piggy is way more difficult for them to prove without other mods also. I can tell you from a personal note I have had major warranty repairs done on JB4/BMS that were taken care of after piggyback was removed. They detected nothing! U gotta pay to play but you are taking an enormous chance with a tune. In fact, if anything goes wrong "tamper prevention code" or not they WILL 10000% detect you.

[Fake News 2017]

Originally Posted by Zerouali

Anyone with any computing/electronics experience will tell you that 100% BMW can tell if you have interfered with the ECU. Any tune/remap/box/piggyback will be traceable from the ECU data if BMW decide to look closely enough.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Will they void your warranty? There is no one right or wrong answer to this. It depends on the failure, the tune, your relationship with your dealer, what mood your dealer is in on the day etc.

There is a right or wrong! If you mod roll in the dealership that way. Or be a liar, strip your mods and play the "Who me" game. It's called integrity!

[Halim@HCP]

It's not safe to run a piggyback, as it is to run a flash tune.
Basically with the piggy you don't do have to open the ECU and cause signs of it being opened. BUT with the piggy you inject more fuel over stock, all this is saved as FASTA data and can be reviewed by BMW - I know for a fact a German guy in his M2 that bent 2 rods and BMW denied repairs and voided his warranty.. He had JB, fuel it PI and some other mods. It's not JB related, but any piggy...

Again, IF you dare to mod the car, you better know you take a risk. IF you do not want to take that risk, simply go buy a faster car lol

[CPWINCH]

They can 100% tell if a car has been piggy'd. My friend recently had to get his engine replaced and they sent someone out from BMWNA and they "saw signs of aftermarket tune" and voided his warranty. He brought his car in 100% stock but they figured it out.

This is why this will be my first car that I dont tune. It sucks really as I wish I had more power but i like the peace of mind and dont want to shell out 25k+ if anything ever happens

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Myaddiction

Can BMW detect a piggyback after its been removed?

The BMW mechanic at our local dealer who has serviced our cars for the last six years (and was promoted to shop foreman in January) told me that yes, BMW can detect tunes of any kind. This happens automatically when the car is hooked up via the OBDII port.

There was one car that came in, very vague about the problem he was having, that was immediately flagged. BMW even called the dealership to discuss the car with them. The owner apparently had been at another shop where it was initially flagged and once he was hooked up at my mechanic's dealership it was immediately flagged there as well.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by parky1215

Nobody will be able to provide definite answer to this.
Experience will differ depending on the dealer and your relationship with SA.

Not sure why you think that "Nobody will be able to provide definite answer to this."

I'm personal friends with our BMW mechanic (now shop foreman) at our local dealership. He's also president of our local BMW CCA Chapter. See my above answer when I asked him specifically about BMW being able to detect tunes. That's first hand knowledge from a reliable source. Now you have it second-hand.

I also know our SA, the Service Manager, the Parts Manager, the Sales Manager, and the GM. I get pretty straight talk from my dealer when I ask questions.

[aboulfad]

so no one else interested in understanding what BMW is really checking to detect a piggy ? (aside from any DTCs). I have access to hundred (if not thousands) of parameters in FASTA data, maybe some pointers to look for ?