Jb4 Vs Full Ecu Flash

[BPe90M3]

so is set up an appoinment for a full ECU flash this weekend. I have been trying to research the benefits but the technology is too new with not many people running the systems. my question is this.....

I understand that a full remap where fuel, timing etc can be altered is the more reliable route, but the JB4 has been around for years and it's obviously reliable. what are the other advantages of a full flash? is it really worth more than double the price? will a full flash even make more power than the Jb4? thanks for the input.

[Bahn360Photo]

IMO re-flash is not worth it, can be argued.

benefits of JB

1. cost
2. support
3. flexibility
4. reversibility
5. cheap updates/upgrades
6. more controls available
7. various maps for various types of driving/fuel type etc
.
.
8. more power
if your car gets software update from the dealer, you need to go back to re flash (not sure if all companies offer to redo it for free)

[tom @ eas]

And limited by the skills of the person tuning/flashing your vehicle. This is an area where experience is everything.

[BPe90M3]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

And limited by the skills of the person tuning/flashing your vehicle. This is an area where experience is everything.

so at this point. JB4 seems the best way to go. even over the flash?

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by BPe90M3

so at this point. JB4 seems the best way to go. even over the flash?

That's purely up to the end user and how involved one wants to get tinkering to get the settings just right. Others want to get in and drive.

Flash will be the only way to get full control over the DME/ECU. Who are you inquiring with to perform your tuning?

[FC4]

Until you can actually dyno tune the ECU, there is no performance benefit to an off-the-shelf ECU flash.

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by FC4

Until you can actually dyno tune the ECU, there is no performance benefit to an off-the-shelf ECU flash.

It would be best if we all used common terminology here. What off-the-shelf ECU flash are you referring to? The JB4 does not flash the ECU. It's simply a piggyback style tuning solution.

[BPe90M3]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

It would be best if we all used common terminology here. What off-the-shelf ECU flash are you referring to? The JB4 does not flash the ECU. It's simply a piggyback style tuning solution.

correct. I'm talking about a true ecu flash, where the DME needs to be removed

[BPe90M3]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

That's purely up to the end user and how involved one wants to get tinkering to get the settings just right. Others want to get in and drive.

Flash will be the only way to get full control over the DME/ECU. Who are you inquiring with to perform your tuning?

ACM out here on the east coast

[Myaddiction]

As of right now the only thing unique to a "full flash" is the ability to remove the top speed limiter and the cold start.

When people say that an ECU is cracked and flash able it is the same as opening a door to a house. The tuner still has to go inside and see what's in all the rooms (maps) and what can be done. This just takes time and motivation.

We can only hope that one day the tuning software for S55 ECU's gets close to what ECUTEK has done for the GTR ECU. Total control of the engine ECU as well as the transmission ECU to change the DCT's clamping pressure, touch points etc...

Right now flashes are just doing what a JB4 stage 1 does. Adding some boost and adjusting fuel and timing. That's why you don't see any dynos for them yet. It's 4X the price with the same result. I'm sure the tuners are working right now to figure out how they can change big things and remove the fueling limits and adjust VANOS etc... It'll happen but they are not there yet. JB4 will be the way to go for a long time for more power and all the features we'll probably never get out of the ECU like boost by gear, on the fly adjusting for mixed fuels and logging and...

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by FC4

Until you can actually dyno tune the ECU, there is no performance benefit to an off-the-shelf ECU flash.

Being that these platforms are target-based, this isn't necessarily true.

Originally Posted by BPe90M3

ACM out here on the east coast

Should be just fine, just be sure to ask plenty of questions up front so you are fully informed along the way.

[BPe90M3]

Originally Posted by Myaddiction

As of right now the only thing unique to a "full flash" is the ability to remove the top speed limiter and the cold start.

When people say that an ECU is cracked and flash able it is the same as opening a door to a house. The tuner still has to go inside and see what's in all the rooms (maps) and what can be done. This just takes time and motivation.

We can only hope that one day the tuning software for S55 ECU's gets close to what ECUTEK has done for the GTR ECU. Total control of the engine ECU as well as the transmission ECU to change the DCT's clamping pressure, touch points etc...

Right now flashes are just doing what a JB4 stage 1 does. Adding some boost and adjusting fuel and timing. That's why you don't see any dynos for them yet. It's 4X the price with the same result. I'm sure the tuners are working right now to figure out how they can change big things and remove the fueling limits and adjust VANOS etc... It'll happen but they are not there yet. JB4 will be the way to go for a long time for more power and all the features we'll probably never get out of the ECU like boost by gear, on the fly adjusting for mixed fuels and logging and...

thank you for the great response my friend. and this is why I became skeptical in the 1st place. on my Evo, which used ECUTEK, it was obvious that full ecu flashes were better than say a Cobb access port but I'm not getting the same vibe for the M4

[BPe90M3]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Being that these platforms are target-based, this isn't necessarily true.

Should be just fine, just be sure to ask plenty of questions up front so you are fully informed along the way.

true. I have no doubt that ACM is trustworthy with the tunes, but I'm not dumping triple the price just to remove top speed which I'll never hit on the street anyway.

[8600RPM]

Originally Posted by BPe90M3

thank you for the great response my friend. and this is why I became skeptical in the 1st place. on my Evo, which used ECUTEK, it was obvious that full ecu flashes were better than say a Cobb access port but I'm not getting the same vibe for the M4

Boost, timing and a/f are 99 percent of engine tuning. A ecu tune really offers very little aside from cold start delete and top speed

[pikkagtr]

Ecu flashing currently still a one size fits all bench flash,
Until there is dyno custom tunning and maps tailored to individual vehicles and their mods/ nuances the
Jb4 is more than enough IMHO

[Myaddiction]

Originally Posted by 8600RPM

Boost, timing and a/f are 99 percent of engine tuning. A ecu tune really offers very little aside from cold start delete and top speed

Not really anymore. Current ECU's use hundreds of tables to draw from when deciding how much boost fuel and timing to use. Often its an indirect effector that tuners will modify to make the changes they want.

You can't just go in and tell it at X rpm you want X fuel or timing. It's looking at numerous data sets to determine what it is going to do next. Additionally you have the tables for VANOS and VALVETRONIC which impact power and drivability then there are the load request or torque request tables that impact fueling, boost, timing and even clamping pressure for the DCT.

This is why they are not making the power JB4 is yet. JB4 can go around those issues to a extent. But it to has limits like short term and long fuel trims. If they exceed a limit you get check engine lights and limp modes.
We've rolled in the dirt with all of this before on the N54 platforms and are doing it again for the S55 but at least we have what we learned on the older platform to help this time around.

[TwinMTurbo]

Originally Posted by Myaddiction

Not really anymore. Current ECU's use hundreds of tables to draw from when deciding how much boost fuel and timing to use. Often its an indirect effector that tuners will modify to make the changes they want.

You can't just go in and tell it at X rpm you want X fuel or timing. It's looking at numerous data sets to determine what it is going to do next. Additionally you have the tables for VANOS and VALVETRONIC which impact power and drivability then there are the load request or torque request tables that impact fueling, boost, timing and even clamping pressure for the DCT.

This is why they are not making the power JB4 is yet. JB4 can go around those issues to a extent. But it to has limits like short term and long fuel trims. If they exceed a limit you get check engine lights and limp modes.
We've rolled in the dirt with all of this before on the N54 platforms and are doing it again for the S55 but at least we have what we learned on the older platform to help this time around.

Well said! I been waiting for dyno numbers to roll out. EAS is working out the final stages with the ESS Flash Tune.

[saxon]

IMO jb4 offers some advantages to the flash, however a flash tuner like cobb would be superior to jb4 in the long run

[PetrolFumes]

I was also considering the autocotour flash...supposedly stage 2 and down pipes are giving you 500 hp and 500 tq the wheels. Well that's what Dan told me at AC

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Bahn360Photo

IMO re-flash is not worth it, can be argued.

benefits of JB

1. cost
2. support
3. flexibility
4. reversibility
5. cheap updates/upgrades
6. more controls available
7. various maps for various types of driving/fuel type etc
.
.
8. more power
if your car gets software update from the dealer, you need to go back to re flash (not sure if all companies offer to redo it for free)

Agree 100%
Add to that
free firmware upgrades
no down time
And undetectable

Originally Posted by saxon

IMO jb4 offers some advantages to the flash, however a flash tuner like cobb would be superior to jb4 in the long run

Correct, except there is not Cobb like flash at the moment for any F chassis and it does not sound like there will be one anytime soon.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Agree 100%
Add to that
free firmware upgrades
no down time
And undetectable

Correct, except there is not Cobb like flash at the moment for any F chassis and it does not sound like there will be one anytime soon.

Piggybacks are absolutely detectable.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Piggybacks are absolutely detectable.

You might be right but i have not seen any warranty being voided after the user removed the tune.