F1 2022: Italian GP - Imola (Apr 24)

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The new Ferrari 'diffuser upgrade ..

It seems like only this year Ferrari is splashing the cash meaningfully as opposed to the many previous they have wasted on garbage 1

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

It seems like only this year Ferrari is splashing the cash meaningfully as opposed to the many previous they have wasted on garbage 1

Lol and don't forget their race engineers have finally woken up this year, no more "copy we're checking". It's almost as if they want to win again.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

FTFY

F1 veteran Mark Surer has said that RB simply had a too weak fuel line part, either that or it was not properly fitted leading to Max's race retirement.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

F1 veteran Mark Surer has said that RB simply had a too weak fuel line part, either that or it was not properly fitted leading to Max's race retirement.

If it is a "too weak part" that could be a consequence of trying to make the material "just strong enough" for weight savings. Which isn't a good thing when redbull need to shave another 10 kg.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

If it is a "too weak part" that could be a consequence of trying to make the material "just strong enough" for weight savings. Which isn't a good thing when redbull need to shave another 10 kg.

Probably not much to be saved by a just fuel pipe lol, it's more likely it wasn't fitted well, a human error as Surer suggests. It's bad enough on the M cars as you know thinking you made a connection when it's not in properly.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Probably not much to be saved by a just fuel pipe lol, it's more likely it wasn't fitted well, a human error as Surer suggests. It's bad enough on the M cars as you know thinking you made a connection when it's not in properly.

Yeah but when every gram matters they will shave weight off of the weirdest spots, like removing paint saves them 300ish grams. So if making the lines thinner saves weight they will do it.


I'm not sure how fuel lines are on other M cars, but on the n55 m2 and s55 it is quite easy, the clips won't snap down unless the fuel line is all the way in. Then the rest are threaded fittings.


It's possible for human error to be a factor, but that's really hard to believe because even a low pressure line would provide enough pressure that it will blow off if not fitted properly. So upon startup it should have failed immediately or started leaking immediately if it was human error. I'm thinking it is a parts defect, because if it was human error redbull would have said so immediately upon realizing no hoses were broken and it looked more like a leak due to cross threaded hoses fittings or a hose that has fallen off. But since there has been no real news as of late, I would think the issue is more complicated than it seems meaning it is more likely to be a part issue.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah but when every gram matters they will shave weight off of the weirdest spots, like removing paint saves them 300ish grams. So if making the lines thinner saves weight they will do it.


I'm not sure how fuel lines are on other M cars, but on the n55 m2 and s55 it is quite easy, the clips won't snap down unless the fuel line is all the way in. Then the rest are threaded fittings.


It's possible for human error to be a factor, but that's really hard to believe because even a low pressure line would provide enough pressure that it will blow off if not fitted properly. So upon startup it should have failed immediately or started leaking immediately if it was human error. I'm thinking it is a parts defect, because if it was human error redbull would have said so immediately upon realizing no hoses were broken and it looked more like a leak due to cross threaded hoses fittings or a hose that has fallen off. But since there has been no real news as of late, I would think the issue is more complicated than it seems meaning it is more likely to be a part issue.

Well then the part in question was either weak or the connection was not strong enough, we must remember the fuel pressure is far more than in our cars so weighing up lightness and strength in the part is a tricky decision.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Well then the part in question was either weak or the connection was not strong enough, we must remember the fuel pressure is far more than in our cars so weighing up lightness and strength in the part is a tricky decision.

Yes the HPFP on an F1 engine makes the regulated max fuel pressure of 500 bar. The HPFP on my n55 m2 makes a max of 200 bar, and the s55 about 260 bar. So pretty much double the pressure that DI street cars see (I think the F10 m5 runs around the same pressure as the s55 but likely more due to it requiring 8 injectors vs 6).

However those lines from the HPFP to the direct injectors tend to be made of stainless steel piping not hosing, because hoses can't tolerate 500 bar of pressure (even on street cars it is stainless steel), and the failure is reported to be from the lift pump or low pressure side to the high pressure pump. This low pressure side is much much much lower in pressure, as its job is to deliver volume and the HPFP's job is to pressurize it.


So the main focus is on the LPFP side, sure pressure isn't as high as the HPFP but it can still fail if the material was too weak due to weight savings, or it could have been a bad connection who knows. But my point is this is the side where expertise should be the highest from all the knowledge of port injection and prior f1 engine building. So it would be really strange to see this part fail because it is really common now, and probably not as changed as the HPFP parts. Maybe the ethanol weakened the hose, but I doubt that they would use anything not made of teflon or teflon lined.

[GuidoK]

apparently RB won't have enough time to complete the planned updates before Imola, so no new parts for Max and Checo this race.

So I'm altering my prediction:

1. LEC
2. SAI
3. VER
4. PER
5. ALO
6. HAM

BTW the HPFP in my Volvo diesel does 1800 bar. I win

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yes the HPFP on an F1 engine makes the regulated max fuel pressure of 500 bar. The HPFP on my n55 m2 makes a max of 200 bar, and the s55 about 260 bar. So pretty much double the pressure that DI street cars see (I think the F10 m5 runs around the same pressure as the s55 but likely more due to it requiring 8 injectors vs 6).

However those lines from the HPFP to the direct injectors tend to be made of stainless steel piping not hosing, because hoses can't tolerate 500 bar of pressure (even on street cars it is stainless steel), and the failure is reported to be from the lift pump or low pressure side to the high pressure pump. This low pressure side is much much much lower in pressure, as its job is to deliver volume and the HPFP's job is to pressurize it.


So the main focus is on the LPFP side, sure pressure isn't as high as the HPFP but it can still fail if the material was too weak due to weight savings, or it could have been a bad connection who knows. But my point is this is the side where expertise should be the highest from all the knowledge of port injection and prior f1 engine building. So it would be really strange to see this part fail because it is really common now, and probably not as changed as the HPFP parts. Maybe the ethanol weakened the hose, but I doubt that they would use anything not made of teflon or teflon lined.

Isn't it 5 bar not 500. ie 5 bar equals 72.5 psi.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

apparently RB won't have enough time to complete the planned updates before Imola, so no new parts for Max and Checo this race.

So I'm altering my prediction:

1. LEC
2. SAI
3. VER
4. PER
5. ALO
6. HAM

BTW the HPFP in my Volvo diesel does 1800 bar. I win

I'm afraid I can only take your first prediction

[iamwingman]

I’m in.
Ver
LeC
Russel
Sainz
Perez
Lando
Ham
Alonso
Mags
DannyRic……

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by iamwingman

I’m in.
Ver
LeC
Russel
Sainz
Perez
Lando
Ham
Alonso
Mags
DannyRic……

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

F1 veteran Mark Surer has said that RB simply had a too weak fuel line part, either that or it was not properly fitted leading to Max's race retirement.

"Toto Wolff questions legality of Ferrari engine" !
=> https://gp33.nl/toto-wolff-zet-vraag...ferrari-motor/

Toto that wont help you ...

[///M Power-Belgium]

The weather prediction for next weekend is rain ...

[3798j]

“It’s still pretty early to think about the championship."
“[We will] just focus on ourselves, try to maximise the package and I think [the next race at] Imola will probably be a better track for our car.” ---Charles Leclerc

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The weather prediction for next weekend is rain ...

Wonder how Lec will be in the rain against Max, the bulbous red car could be a bit 'jumpy' in the rain

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Wonder how Lec will be in the rain against Max, the bulbous red car could be a bit 'jumpy' in the rain

More HP and a new rear wheel suspension for the Ferrari in Spain => https://gp33.nl/ferrari-introduceert...link-meer-pks/

It won't be easy for MAX to beat the Ferrari...

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

More HP

Toto must be going mad.....

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Isn't it 5 bar not 500. ie 5 bar equals 72.5 psi.

No, the hpfp on F1 cars run 500 bars. Yeah it's crazy, street cars run 200 bars or more.

The lpfp side might be around 5 bar.

[GuidoK]

They limit GDI to approx. 200 bar due to wear on the injectors.
This is not a real issue on F1 engines as they run 3000km?, not 300.000km which is normal for a street car.
Of course diesel is a lubricant itself (it's an oil) so 10 times that pressure is no big deal for injectors.

[///M Power-Belgium]

*****