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      05-10-2014, 05:36 AM   #1
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The M4 is a nice overall package but I don't think it's going to be considered the benchmark 7 years from now like how previous gen M's are still compared to new models. The Stingray has improved most this generation and the Z06/ZR1, Z28, etc obliterate the M4 in every performance category not to mention that a many year old model GTR which costs the same as a M4 embarrasses it also. It's a good car but is can't compete with the competition now let alone years from now and M Division wasn't suppose to make a good car they were suppose to make the benchmark of this generation but it doesn't look like that will be the case.
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      05-10-2014, 06:09 AM   #2
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Stingray and Z6 are sold mainly in US, where petrol is almost for free, and EU fleet emission regulations do not apply.
M3/4 is sold worldwide, and must meet EU regulations.
Voila, that's why it has a 3L turbo, and not a 5L NA.

GTR is still 25-30% more expensive.
(And it's a Datsun. And it's ugly. )
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      05-10-2014, 06:35 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
The M4 is a nice overall package but I don't think it's going to be considered the benchmark 7 years from now like how previous gen M's are still compared to new models. The Stingray has improved most this generation and the Z06/ZR1, Z28, etc obliterate the M4 in every performance category not to mention that a many year old model GTR which costs the same as a M4 embarrasses it also. It's a good car but is can't compete with the competition now let alone years from now and M Division wasn't suppose to make a good car they were suppose to make the benchmark of this generation but it doesn't look like that will be the case.
Have you seen many track comparisons of the F8x, since you conclude the way you do?

The reviews are even more positive than they where when the E9x came. And this has a lot more potential for CSL and CP versions since the engine is more easily tuneable. There's also a lot of heavy standard equipment they can get rid of for a CSL version Like power seats, folding rear seats, AC. An easy 100+lbs in weight saving, even without going for lightweight race seats...

Only time will tell if the F8x lives up to the E46 (which many considers a more pure M3 than the E9x).
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      05-10-2014, 07:00 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
Stingray and Z6 are sold mainly in US, where petrol is almost for free, and EU fleet emission regulations do not apply.
M3/4 is sold worldwide, and must meet EU regulations.
Voila, that's why it has a 3L turbo, and not a 5L NA.
You suggest relative fuel prices explain where the Corvette and M3 makes sales?
The last two generations of M3 were classified as "gas-guzzlers" in the USA. How many Corvettes? Not the 7.0 liter Z06. For the last several years Corvettes have generally been faster around tracks too, even before the Stingray.

I don't say this to suggest the Corvette is a better car or even a better performance car. I've owned both a recent M3 and Corvette. Visibility out of Corvettes is poor and has only gotten worse with the Stingray. If you enjoy driving one on a small winding road, you're in the minority. Many different and often conflicting factors go into making a car what it is. And BMW has explained several decisions about the new M3/M4 in terms of solutions to improving emissions and fuel economy. But GM did as well with their move to direct injection and cylinder deactivation.

While I'm not sold on a number of other aspects, I submit the Corvette's recent and current performance-to-fuel-economy ratio is world class.

I eagerly await US EPA numbers for the new M3/M4, and will be pleased if they match the Corvette's numbers. Regards
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      05-10-2014, 07:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
The M4 is a nice overall package but I don't think it's going to be considered the benchmark 7 years from now like how previous gen M's are still compared to new models. The Stingray has improved most this generation and the Z06/ZR1, Z28, etc obliterate the M4 in every performance category not to mention that a many year old model GTR which costs the same as a M4 embarrasses it also. It's a good car but is can't compete with the competition now let alone years from now and M Division wasn't suppose to make a good car they were suppose to make the benchmark of this generation but it doesn't look like that will be the case.
Have you seen many track comparisons of the F8x, since you conclude the way you do?

The reviews are even more positive than they where when the E9x came. And this has a lot more potential for CSL and CP versions since the engine is more easily tuneable. There's also a lot of heavy standard equipment they can get rid of for a CSL version Like power seats, folding rear seats, AC. An easy 100+lbs in weight saving, even without going for lightweight race seats...

Only time will tell if the F8x lives up to the E46 (which many considers a more pure M3 than the E9x).
I haven't seen any track comparisons but we know the track times for most of the models out now and can conclude that the Z06, Z28, GTR, etc is significantly faster but many models have been faster then the M3 in previous generations but the M made up for it in soul so hopefully despite the reviewers saying the car is cold and uninspiring that it's still the best ride around. And a CSL version would be amazing so let's pray for that.
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      05-10-2014, 08:15 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I haven't seen any track comparisons but we know the track times for most of the models out now and can conclude that the Z06, Z28, GTR, etc is significantly faster but many models have been faster then the M3 in previous generations but the M made up for it in soul so hopefully despite the reviewers saying the car is cold and uninspiring that it's still the best ride around. And a CSL version would be amazing so let's pray for that.
Cold and uninspiring? Yeah, that's not what the reviewers are saying.

You people do enjoy reading into what you want to hear from these reviews to back up your biased viewpoints.
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      05-10-2014, 09:13 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I haven't seen any track comparisons but we know the track times for most of the models out now and can conclude that the Z06, Z28, GTR, etc is significantly faster but many models have been faster then the M3 in previous generations but the M made up for it in soul so hopefully despite the reviewers saying the car is cold and uninspiring that it's still the best ride around. And a CSL version would be amazing so let's pray for that.
Really???

Please post the quotes from reviewers that say the car is cold and uninspiring...

Look forward to see if Chris Harris Calls it cold and uninspiring
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      05-10-2014, 09:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Really???

Please post the quotes from reviewers that say the car is cold and uninspiring...

Look forward to see if Chris Harris Calls it cold and uninspiring
Oh, I already called him out on that comment. I'm guessing he's still searching.
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      05-10-2014, 12:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I haven't seen any track comparisons but we know the track times for most of the models out now and can conclude that the Z06, Z28, GTR, etc is significantly faster but many models have been faster then the M3 in previous generations but the M made up for it in soul so hopefully despite the reviewers saying the car is cold and uninspiring that it's still the best ride around. And a CSL version would be amazing so let's pray for that.
Really???

Please post the quotes from reviewers that say the car is cold and uninspiring...

Look forward to see if Chris Harris Calls it cold and uninspiring
I believe it's the Car magazine review that uses the words cold and uninspiring. All the reviews mention good qualities while they also say some negative things as well. With the competition being amazing this gen it's not enough to just make a great car. They needed to make a benchmark like previous gens were but it remains to be seen whether that's the case. Regulations made this car. Pedestrian regs forced the big bulging front bumper and other regs forced this engine for mpg concerns. This isn't the car M Division would have made without the new stricter laws. It's the car they did the best with what they had and hopefully the sound isn't as bad in person as it is in the videos. I'll still be test driving the moment one is available and I'm rooting for it to be the benchmark once again but it's got it's work cut out for it.
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      05-10-2014, 12:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Really???

Please post the quotes from reviewers that say the car is cold and uninspiring...

Look forward to see if Chris Harris Calls it cold and uninspiring
Oh, I already called him out on that comment. I'm guessing he's still searching.
No I wasn't searching but I have very important business with the gf to attend too.

All of the reviews have positive points but most have negative things that are griped about also. The cayman gts and m135 got a 5 while the m4 got a 4.5 from Evo which if you know Evo then 4.5 isn't good and past M's have gotten 5's.

The car is good but it still has a lot to prove to live up to its predecessors and I'm hoping it does.
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      05-10-2014, 12:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Really???

Please post the quotes from reviewers that say the car is cold and uninspiring...

Look forward to see if Chris Harris Calls it cold and uninspiring
Oh, I already called him out on that comment. I'm guessing he's still searching.
No I wasn't searching but I have very important business with the gf to attend too.

All of the reviews have positive points but most have negative things that are griped about also. The cayman gts and m135 got a 5 while the m4 got a 4.5 from Evo which if you know Evo then 4.5 isn't good and past M's have gotten 5's.

The car is good but it still has a lot to prove to live up to its predecessors and I'm hoping it does.
The way I read the various reviews a very good car but not a true great.
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      05-10-2014, 12:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I believe it's the Car magazine review that uses the words cold and uninspiring. All the reviews mention good qualities while they also say some negative things as well. With the competition being amazing this gen it's not enough to just make a great car. They needed to make a benchmark like previous gens were but it remains to be seen whether that's the case. Regulations made this car. Pedestrian regs forced the big bulging front bumper and other regs forced this engine for mpg concerns. This isn't the car M Division would have made without the new stricter laws. It's the car they did the best with what they had and hopefully the sound isn't as bad in person as it is in the videos. I'll still be test driving the moment one is available and I'm rooting for it to be the benchmark once again but it's got it's work cut out for it.
The actual words were "highly impressed but just a little cold". Here they are, in context
Quote:
The new M4 is a great car, but it feels more competent than its predecessor rather than any more enjoyable to drive, and I desperately miss the sound, the delivery and the response of the V8. More than anything, I want a little more feel and interaction from my M3/M4, something approaching the hardwired M3 GTS. Who knows, maybe a drive of manual car on a favourite UK road will warm me to it. But first impressions leave me highly impressed but just a little cold.
If one is allowed to spin words, one might equally say that the reviewer found the old model to be fun but incompetent. In any case, as I have said repeatedly, what some reviewers are pining for in the old ///M is something I found to be blemishing. An engine that needs to be above 7000 rpm to be enjoyed is unenjoyable most of the time. I guess that separates an owner vs someone who is only borrowing the car for a few laps.
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      05-10-2014, 02:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
The car is good but it still has a lot to prove to live up to its predecessors and I'm hoping it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cc3 View Post
The way I read the various reviews a very good car but not a true great.
Well, it sounds pretty great to me

Quote:
...the M3 and M4 are a stirring return to form for an M division we’d feared had lost the plot a little
And to qualm some fears about the engine.

Quote:
...the M3’s new twin-turbo feels like an authentic M engine, with a hint of classic RB26 Skyline motor on the side. Basically the whole reach of the rev counter is your playground but it’s very happy in the upper reaches.
Since some people like to pull one thing from one single review to strengthen their negative viewpoint, I'll do some for the positive side.
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      05-10-2014, 02:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdss6 View Post
You suggest relative fuel prices explain where the Corvette and M3 makes sales?
The last two generations of M3 were classified as "gas-guzzlers" in the USA. How many Corvettes? Not the 7.0 liter Z06. For the last several years Corvettes have generally been faster around tracks too, even before the Stingray.

I don't say this to suggest the Corvette is a better car or even a better performance car. I've owned both a recent M3 and Corvette. Visibility out of Corvettes is poor and has only gotten worse with the Stingray. If you enjoy driving one on a small winding road, you're in the minority. Many different and often conflicting factors go into making a car what it is. And BMW has explained several decisions about the new M3/M4 in terms of solutions to improving emissions and fuel economy. But GM did as well with their move to direct injection and cylinder deactivation.

While I'm not sold on a number of other aspects, I submit the Corvette's recent and current performance-to-fuel-economy ratio is world class.

I eagerly await US EPA numbers for the new M3/M4, and will be pleased if they match the Corvette's numbers. Regards
I suggest US emission rules are not as strict as EU, explaining the downsizing of engine cylinders and displacement in EU manufactured cars, as opposed to US manufactured cars.
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      05-10-2014, 02:45 PM   #15
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So mixed reviews on the steering, sound, and engine which are the three things M needed to perfect the most. It's lighter which is good but it's obvious it's not going to compete with proper sports cars this generation. So for getting groceries and hauling kids this will be the most fun car but for true sports car sounds and engines it seems we might have to look elsewhere and with how underwhelming the M5/M6 were it's no surprise that BMW made another grand tourer instead of having a sports car in their M line up. Hopefully the aftermarket exhausts fix the sound because when I own one I don't want to sound like the fart can civics that pull up next to me.
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      05-10-2014, 02:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
...it's obvious it's not going to compete with proper sports cars this generation
Ah, I found the problem. You're confused on what the M3 actually is.

Carry on in that case.
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      05-10-2014, 02:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
...it's obvious it's not going to compete with proper sports cars this generation
Ah, I found the problem. You're confused on what the M3 actually is.

Carry on in that case.
I'm not confused. I've stated many times that as a fan of BMW and M I was hoping that I'd be able to get a proper sports car from their Motorsport division. I don't want to jump ship but neither do I want to be driving the minivans of performance cars that gets great mpg and can haul groceries and kids and sounds like crap. Is it really too much to ask for a proper M sports car?! If Chevy and Nissan can make sports cars then BMW should be able to as well. Maybe I'll be looking into Porsche for my next car.... sigh.
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      05-10-2014, 03:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
So mixed reviews on the steering, sound, and engine which are the three things M needed to perfect the most. It's lighter which is good but it's obvious it's not going to compete with proper sports cars this generation. So for getting groceries and hauling kids and handing the e92 M3's ass to it, lap after lap this will be the most fun car but for true sports car sounds and engines it seems we might have to look elsewhere and with how underwhelming the M5/M6 were it's no surprise that BMW made another grand tourer instead of having a sports car in their M line up. Hopefully the aftermarket exhausts fix the sound because when I own one I don't want to sound like the fart can civics that pull up next to me.
Edited your post for you.
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      05-10-2014, 03:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
So mixed reviews on the steering, sound, and engine which are the three things M needed to perfect the most. It's lighter which is good but it's obvious it's not going to compete with proper sports cars this generation. So for getting groceries and hauling kids and handing the e92 M3's ass to it, lap after lap this will be the most fun car but for true sports car sounds and engines it seems we might have to look elsewhere and with how underwhelming the M5/M6 were it's no surprise that BMW made another grand tourer instead of having a sports car in their M line up. Hopefully the aftermarket exhausts fix the sound because when I own one I don't want to sound like the fart can civics that pull up next to me.
Edited your post for you.
And the M4 will get it's ass handed to it by Camaros, Corvettes, Mustangs, GTR's, Porsches and probably the turbo v8 AMG, so what's your point? A car 7 years newer beats the previous generation which is expected but is going to be crushed by its modern competition.
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      05-10-2014, 03:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
And the M4 will get it's ass handed to it by Camaros, Corvettes, Mustangs, GTR's, Porsches and probably the turbo v8 AMG, so what's your point? A car 7 years newer beats the previous generation which is expected but is going to be crushed by its modern competition.
We'll see about it.
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      05-10-2014, 03:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
And the M4 will get it's ass handed to it by Camaros, Corvettes, Mustangs, GTR's, Porsches and probably the turbo v8 AMG, so what's your point?
Just like the E9X. The M3 was never the fastest car around the track.
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      05-10-2014, 03:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Jockey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
And the M4 will get it's ass handed to it by Camaros, Corvettes, Mustangs, GTR's, Porsches and probably the turbo v8 AMG, so what's your point?
Just like the E9X. The M3 was never the fastest car around the track.
Very true but it was still the benchmark which is why I got it. The M3 platform has always be so good and fun to drive that it didn't matter if it wasn't the fastest around the track even though they dominate in racing and it was universally considered the best. The competition is really good this gen however and the mixed reviews on the steering, engine, and sound is troubling. Until I actually drive one and see comparisons against its rivals I won't know how it is for sure I'm just saying that I have legit reasons to be concerned and it's not too much to ask for a BMW sports car.
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