[SimonB]

Hi all,

I've been invited to take part in a BMW Drive Day in a bit over a week. I received a form to fill in tonight, which includes these two items as part the Release/Idemnity fine print, which you asked to sign and have witnessed:

3. Accept all risks of injury, loss, damage or liability arising out of or in any way relating to the Course or which might occur at any location at which the Course is conducted;

4. Release BMW Australia, its servants, agents and contractors and all persons and companies which sponsor it or the Course and all persons involved in the provision of the Course from any and all liability for loss, damage or injury caused or contributed to by BMW Australia or in any way arising out of the Course, whether arising out of negligence or contract or common law or statute law;

Now, I'm not after legal advice, but I seem to recall that this type of thing isn't worth the paper it's written on, even if you sign it.

Your comments? Am I correct?

Simon...

[HFW003]

Good morning Simon,

I can't comment on the worth of the extract but I can tell you, after having done many track days, they won't let you on the track if you don't sign it!

Sign it and have a shit load of fun!

[SimonB]

Originally Posted by HFW003

I can't comment on the worth of the extract but I can tell you, after having done many track days, they won't let you on the track if you don't sign it!

Sign it and have a shit load of fun!

Morning! It's not a track day, as such, but a familiarization say, as I understand it. On a skid pan type course. I expect it'll be about handling, braking etc. We'll see. Is the 13th of Nov.

I fully expected the 'no sign, no drive' response, just curious about the 'we assume no responsibility ' nature, but will see if there is anyone else out there familiar with these things.

Cheers (getting closer now, only 2 weeks until she's here in Perth!)...

[jctg]

My understanding, and this is based on what I remember about tort law from one semester in uni 20 years ago, is that the organisers owe you a reasonable duty of care regardless of what you sign.

But I am not a lawyer.

[SimonB]

jctg, thanks for that. I just checked with one of my colleagues here, who's in the contracts area and she says that those two para's are valid, but that they cannot over-ride any Australian laws and that they take precedence. What extra rights that gives you, if any, I still don't know

[jctg]

Let's say there is a patch of oil on the track and the organisers know about it. There is a reasonable chance that a driver will hit the oil and they had reasonable opportunity to stop activities until it is cleaned up but they did nothing other than watch you hit the oil, spin off, smack into a wall and hurt yourself - I say they would be liable regardless of what you sign.

[ab156]

These kinds of statements are like all waivers, they are contestable and interpretable - the better the lawyer you can afford the more chance you have to break it. Under the right conditions they are not worth the ink used to print. In the case of the BMW day it is likely that BMW will be able to prove that all reasonable care and attention has been applied and have the evidence to prove the participant was fully aware.

I have done several of these types of events and the BMW run operation is at or near the top. Some of the events run by car "clubs" can be a bit sketchy and should definitely be approached with caution and serious personal risk assessment. I have unfortunately seen things go very wrong, very quickly in circumstances that might surprise. All of these events are (or at least should be!) underwritten, I am aware of a case where a significant settlement was made regardless of a similar waivers.

At the end of the day, if you are worried about your legal position in the case something goes very wrong you probably should re-consider involvement. Ultimately you are responsible for putting yourself in a position where you have limited control on the outcome (of course, this applies every time you cross the street....).

[SimonB]

I agree. Let's hope I don't find out for sure

[SimonB]

Originally Posted by ab156

At the end of the day, if you are worried about your legal position in the case something goes very wrong you probably should re-consider involvement. Ultimately you are responsible for putting yourself in a position where you have limited control on the outcome (of course, this applies every time you cross the street....).

Ab156, excuse me for cutting down your great post. I agree with you 100%, but particularly with the above para! which is why I left it.

As you say, it comes down to personal responsibility to a very large degree. I did a rally driving day in Finland a couple of years ago in -26C and, if the snow drifts hadn't been as big and fluffy as they were on the bends, I would have bailed. The level of prep was terrible and the briefing was almost non-existent. It taught me a lesson, for sure.

Things like that and talks with a mate who works for an Oil and Gas company, where they are very strong on personal safety and responsibility means that I have now had the balls to chat several taxi drivers about their driving style and offering to get out if they don't slow down, back off and drive more responsibly. Funnily enough, they have all been in Oz.

So, yes - while I am not worried, per se, I know my limits, but will aim to enjoy the day!

Simon....

[Sherweeeny]

They are just covering their rear end. Take it as it comes and just don't have an accident!

[AMJAM]

It's more for their insurance