Grossglockner, Stelvio and Summer Tires in October

[///BYU]

**Before you read this, yes, I've never driven on summer tires in anything close to low temps before.**

I'm doing European Delivery this Thursday and decided I'd wait until I saw the weather forecast before reserving winter tires from edwintertires.com. I figured if the late-October weather was nice, I wouldn't need to incur the expense.

This turned out to be not a good idea, especially since I was hoping to drive some of the Alpine passes. Obviously I wasn't thinking...

All winter tire setups for the 1M are now reserved. The forecast is sunny and dry for Munich during the days I'll have the car, however temperatures range from the mid-50s (13 C) for daytime highs down to high-20s (-2 C) for overnight lows.

My questions:

#1. Is there another good company that rents winter tire setups other than edwintertires.com?

#2. Assuming roads are dry, what temperature would you recommend I stop driving on performance tires?

#3. Assuming there is light to moderate rain, what temperature would you recommend I stop driving on performance tires?

#4. I was hoping to do either the Grossglockner High Alpine Road or Stelvio Pass or both, but now that I (probably) won't have winter tires I'm thinking it wouldn't be a good idea to try in late October. Any advice here? Grossglocker might work (1,953 m / 6,407 ft). I'm thinking Stelvio definitely won't (2,757 m / 9,045 ft + snow is in the forecast). Attempting this and its aftermath could be a quick way to get on the front page of BIMMERPOST, but I don't think that's the outcome I want. Plus I have a wife and kids.

Thanks, everyone, for your help!

[LOVEM]

anything after nov-15 u must have winter tires its the law.

[fermat1313]

Originally Posted by ///BYU

**Before you read this, yes, I've never driven on summer tires in anything close to low temps before.**

I'm doing European Delivery this Thursday and decided I'd wait until I saw the weather forecast before reserving winter tires from edwintertires.com. I figured if the late-October weather was nice, I wouldn't need to incur the expense.

This turned out to be not a good idea, especially since I was hoping to drive some of the Alpine passes. Obviously I wasn't thinking...

Thanks, everyone, for your help!

If you haven't already, check out the European Delivery forum on Bimmerfest. There are lots of discussions on this topic, and lots of experienced people there to answer your questions.

[Dackelone]

Snow tires are not required until Nov 15th. Most Germans have not put their snows on - yet. The Germans have a funny law... basically... you do not need snow tires until Nov 15th - and then... only when it is colder than 7' C or colder. Its optional. IF you get into an accident... you can be found at fault... EVEN if the accident wasn't you fault - bc you did not have snow tires! lol SO... needless to say, once Nov 15th comes... EVERYONE puts their snow tires on. Btw... you also need a snow/ice scraper, windshield washer fluid(in the tank/blue fluid) in the car as well. Thats another ticket if you don't have those.

I would think you might get by. Just might. When the temps are around 7'C or colder... just take it easy. This morning it was 2'C @6am and I went to go pass a buss in the city... I just spun my big/wide (255's) summer Michelin's! lol Also... when it rains in say Munich... when you get over 700m and again over 900m, you uslally see snow or ice. Next week the weather is suppose to be milder - at least here in Bayern. By mild, I mean highs of 14'C or so. Normally in Nov is when it starts to snow, middle to the end of the month. There will be signs at the Alpine Pass's when they require snow tires AND/or tire chains! Yes, tire chains can be also required too!

IF it is dry ad you are on summer tires... I would say to stop driving when the temps are under minus 3' C. IF it is snowing/raining, stop driving at 3' C.

The Stelvio Pass is really bumpy and tight. I really prefered the Gross Glockner Pass. And everyone seems to know of the Stelvio while the Gross Glockner was somewhat an insiders place. I only saw a few performance cars in Glockner... but at Stelvio I saw all sorts of rare sports cars coming and going: Lambos, Ferarri's, Porsche GT2's & GT3's, Ariel Atoms, ect. AT the Glockner I only saw bikers and some normal performance cars like M3s and Z4Ms.

Have fun!
Dackel


PS: Remember you need a warning vest for every person in your car when you enter Austria. Also you need an autobahn tax/decall. And a spare light bulb kit.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by LOVEM

anything after oct-15 u must have winter tires its the law.

It is Nov 15th, not Oct!

[LOVEM]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

It is Nov 15th, not Oct!

sorry my bad .. u r always helpful.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by LOVEM

sorry my bad .. u r always helpful.

No biggie. At first I thought maybe the Austrian's had a different law/date than the Germans. Anyways... we are all here to help each other.

[Papethova]

The BMW paperwork they send us for ED says October 15th on it, maybe thats where the confusion arises.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Papethova

The BMW paperwork they send us for ED says October 15th on it, maybe thats where the confusion arises.

Ok... I did some digging around and found out some more info on winter tires. I guess I kind of got it wrong.

The German law use to say that winter tires were required from Oktober 15th until April 15th (“von O bis O” Oktober bis Ostern(Easter)).... The way the law was written it did not specificaly state what was considered “appropriate set of tires”. They meant winter tires, but there have been some fake Chinese tires with the "M+S" logo on the sidewalls. So last year the law was changed. No more is there a date/time that you need to have snow tires installed. BUT you do need "appropriate set of tires” that carry a M+S logo AND a snow flake symbol.

Also... under icy conditionsyou must HAVE snow tires on your vehicle! No more the 7'C rule.

Also... In Austria, winter tires are mandatory from November 1 to April 15. You need at least 4mm of thread profile.

In Germany it is only 1.6mm, but the normally when you get around 4mm most people buy new tires.


http://www.german-way.com/ice-snow-tires.html

Btw... here is the complete driving rules in Germany. But I could not even find mention of what kind of snow tires are required and when.

http://www.verkehrsportal.de/stvzo/stvzo.php

§32 Abmessungen von Fahrzeugen und Fahrzeugkombinationen talks a little bit of what is required... but it is not complete. ?

[KIYO]

It is mandatory to put on the winter tires from 1st Nov. in Austria.
In the Grossglockner road, one section is a viaduct which is sometimes frozen. Be careful even if you have put on the winter tires.

I went to Col de l'Iseran in the biginning of October to find out that although it is still open, it is not possible to drive with summer tires. My 1M was summer tire so I was not able to climb to the top. The temperature was minus 5.5 degrees C.

This web might be handy to know which pass is open.
http://www.alpen-journal.de/alpenpaesse.html

[ND40oz]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Ok... I did some digging around and found out some more info on winter tires. I guess I kind of got it wrong.

The German law use to say that winter tires were required from Oktober 15th until April 15th (“von O bis O” Oktober bis Ostern(Easter)).... The way the law was written it did not specificaly state what was considered “appropriate set of tires”. They meant winter tires, but there have been some fake Chinese tires with the "M+S" logo on the sidewalls. So last year the law was changed. No more is there a date/time that you need to have snow tires installed. BUT you do need "appropriate set of tires” that carry a M+S logo AND a snow flake symbol.

Also... under icy conditionsyou must HAVE snow tires on your vehicle! No more the 7'C rule.

Also... In Austria, winter tires are mandatory from November 1 to April 15. You need at least 4mm of thread profile.

In Germany it is only 1.6mm, but the normally when you get around 4mm most people buy new tires.


http://www.german-way.com/ice-snow-tires.html

Btw... here is the complete driving rules in Germany. But I could not even find mention of what kind of snow tires are required and when.

http://www.verkehrsportal.de/stvzo/stvzo.php

§32 Abmessungen von Fahrzeugen und Fahrzeugkombinationen talks a little bit of what is required... but it is not complete. ?

Do they have to have the snow flake symbol as well as the M+S marking? The german-way link just said M+S, so it's a little confusing. I've used all-seasons with M+S in the past and don't want to get in trouble the next time I drove over.

OP, we rented both an X1 on summers and a 320i on all-seasons two weeks ago when I was in Munich and on the colder days, I felt more comfortable driving the 3er over the X1, didn't go nearly as high as you are going, but did have it up to the base of the Zugspitze. I'd second Dackel's temp recommendations if you can't find a rental set of tires.

[Rikx1M]

Originally Posted by ///BYU

[COLOR="Blue"]

I'm doing European Delivery this Thursday and

Hey if you are coming past Heidelberg, send me a pm and we can have a beer....

You won't need M&S or even winter tires here :-)

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ND40oz

Do they have to have the snow flake symbol as well as the M+S marking? The german-way link just said M+S, so it's a little confusing. I've used all-seasons with M+S in the past and don't want to get in trouble the next time I drove over.

OP, we rented both an X1 on summers and a 320i on all-seasons two weeks ago when I was in Munich and on the colder days, I felt more comfortable driving the 3er over the X1, didn't go nearly as high as you are going, but did have it up to the base of the Zugspitze. I'd second Dackel's temp recommendations if you can't find a rental set of tires.

I'm pretty sure that you need both the M+S marking and the SNOW FLAKE symbol for winter weather driving over here, now. I know my BMW snows (RFT) have both. But to be honest... its the sort of thing that most cops would not check for unless you got into an accident here.

Going off of my memory from last year's court case ruling... the guy who protested his "winter tire" ticket (his lawyers) cited some of the new Chinese imported tires(nto Germany)... some that are clearly summer profiles and rubber compounds, but have a M+S logo molded on the sidwall. Those tires "met" German law, but were clearly not wise to use for winter tires. Because the law was not specific enough... that guy got his ticket thrown out of court. Now... even motorcycles and trucks need snow tires when it is winter outside. Even though the tire makers do not make snow tires for motorcylces or large trucks!

[comar1979]

The newest Law in Germany is, you Need tires that fits the weather!

There is no Law like "you Need Winter tires on 15 November" or anything like that.

So, if its snows this Week, i Need Winter tires, if Next Week the Sun come out and we have 15* Celsius, you can Switch to summer tires again.

I don't think that its a good Idea going with Summer tires to the Alps in october... Its warm in the Valley and freezing Cold n the Mountains.

[steve79]

I think it's now a bit late to drive Alps passes, here in Europe, and to have the real fun to drive these routes!! Actually, they are all open, but it's not a great fun, in the rain and at these temperatures!!
I just came back 1 1/2 week ago from Italy with my 1M, and i didn't take the risk to drive Stelvio, with my 1M, on summer tyres!!
I will go back for this next year!;-)There was also a lot of snow on the Grossglockner!!
When you will pass in Luxembourg, give me sign!!;-)

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by comar1979

The newest Law in Germany is, you Need tires that fits the weather!

There is no Law like "you Need Winter tires on 15 November" or anything like that.

Correct!

§2 StVO states the following:

(3a) Bei Glatteis, Schneeglätte, Schneematsch, Eis- oder Reifglätte darf ein Kraftfahrzeug nur mit Reifen gefahren werden, welche die in Anhang II Nummer 2.2 der Richtlinie 92/23/EWG des Rates vom 31. März 1992 über Reifen von Kraftfahrzeugen und Kraftfahrzeuganhängern und über ihre Montage (ABl. L 129 vom 14.5.1992, S. 95), die zuletzt durch die Richtlinie 2005/11/EG (ABl. L 46 vom 17.2.2005, S. 42) geändert worden ist, beschriebenen Eigenschaften erfüllen (M+S-Reifen). Kraftfahrzeuge der Klassen M2, M3, N2 und N3 gemäß Anlage XXIX der Straßenverkehrs-Zulassungs-Ordnung in der Fassung der Bekanntmachung vom 28. September 1988 (BGBl. I S. 1793), die zuletzt durch Artikel 3 der Verordnung vom 21. April 2009 (BGBl. I S. 872) geändert worden ist, dürfen bei solchen Wetterverhältnissen auch gefahren werden, wenn an den Rädern der Antriebsachsen M+S-Reifen angebracht sind. Satz 1 gilt nicht für Nutzfahrzeuge der Land- und Forstwirtschaft sowie für Einsatzfahrzeuge der in § 35 Absatz 1 genannten Organisationen, soweit für diese Fahrzeuge bauartbedingt keine M+S-Reifen verfügbar sind. Wer ein kennzeichnungspflichtiges Fahrzeug mit gefährlichen Gütern führt, muss bei einer Sichtweite unter 50 m, bei Schneeglätte oder Glatteis jede Gefährdung anderer ausschließen und wenn nötig den nächsten geeigneten Platz zum Parken aufsuchen.

No, I am not going to translate all of that.

It basically states, that you may not drive your vehicle if your tires are not suited for the weather. Just as comar1979 states above. If you hit snow in June, you don't drive if you have the wrong tires. Rather simple.

The bavarian police elaborates (for those that speak German). The text there also states the fines.

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by ///BYU

#1. Is there another good company that rents winter tire setups other than edwintertires.com?

#2. Assuming roads are dry, what temperature would you recommend I stop driving on performance tires?

#3. Assuming there is light to moderate rain, what temperature would you recommend I stop driving on performance tires?

Renting tyres? Sorry, I have no idea. I've never rented them. Didn't know you could.

Temperatures: It's not that easy! The question is not what temperature you have outside, but what temperature you have in your tire. A rule of thumb we have on the Nordschleife... below 10° (Celcius!) it is virtually impossible to get slicks to work unless you have a supersoft slick. Slicks need 60-70° (Celcius!) to bite and it is very, very difficult to make that happen on a public road type surface. And the more high performance a tyre is, the closer it handles to a slick. My personal rule of thumb on the street with HP or UHP tires is "added care below 15° (Celcius!)" and "very careful below 10° (Celcius!)".

Me personally, I just had my Pirellis changed for Conti winter tyres yesterday. Because we have around 0° (Celcius!) in the mornings right now and the Pirellis simply didn't work any more.

Low temperatures and rain? Woah. Very, very careful! IF you have enough car control training, then you can try playing. IF! Would I recommend it? No. Alpine passes rarely leave room for errors.

[comar1979]

Thanks EmmDrei!

Its not so easy to translate all that law Stuff from German to English (if youre not a native speaker )

I wouldnt go in the Alps! Maybe the next two weeks with Wintertires, after that, just with a 4wd and Wintertires!!!

Here are some Pics from the User Marowol... Those Pixx are from the Sudelfeld which is on 800-1200 Meters, from 12.10.11 . They have to turn without Winters

[EmmDrei]

Nix zu danken, Comar!

I like the white one with the foiled roof! Looks good!

[1560]

here you can see which "passes" are "open"
http://www.alpen-journal.de/alpenpaesse.html

very nice webcams on the Stelvio:
http://webcam.popso.it/cm/pages/Serv...T/IDPagina/39#

[comar1979]

couse it fits to the thread...

I mounted my Winterwheels today