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      05-07-2017, 07:36 AM   #1
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M2 to BMW i3

Well, I took my 2017 BMW m2 with 1700 miles on it to my favorite detail shop and they gave me a BMW i3 as a loaner. All I have to say is if this is the future of the automotive industry im keeping my m2 for the next 50 years. I know it was an i3 and not a "high performance" EV but it's absolutely awful ...

What I don't understand is how a company like tesla which sells only 80,000 cars per year, has some quality issues, looses hundreds of million dollars a year has a market cap bigger than GM and Ford motor company.

I personally never see EV's as more than a niche product for tree huggers who are fooling themselves as they plug their cars into outlets supplied by coal burning power plants. Oil is cheap and plentiful and evs are expensive to build and do absolutely nothing for the environment.

Give me and ICE any day of the week over an electric car .... even a tesla.

What do people think?
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      05-07-2017, 08:05 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heart_doctor View Post
Well, I took my 2017 BMW m2 with 1700 miles on it to my favorite detail shop and they gave me a BMW i3 as a loaner. All I have to say is if this is the future of the automotive industry im keeping my m2 for the next 50 years. I know it was an i3 and not a "high performance" EV but it's absolutely awful ...

What I don't understand is how a company like tesla which sells only 80,000 cars per year, has some quality issues, looses hundreds of million dollars a year has a market cap bigger than GM and Ford motor company.

I personally never see EV's as more than a niche product for tree huggers who are fooling themselves as they plug their cars into outlets supplied by coal burning power plants. Oil is cheap and plentiful and evs are expensive to build and do absolutely nothing for the environment.

Give me and ICE any day of the week over an electric car .... even a tesla.

What do people think?
My neighbor has an i3 (and a 1M & 235i). I've driven the i3...terrible, IMO. In any case, this part of your statement is spot on:

"...who are fooling themselves as they plug their cars into outlets supplied by coal burning power plants. Oil is cheap and plentiful and evs are expensive to build and do absolutely nothing for the environment..."

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Lithium is only mined in 5 countries and will probably be in short supply (sooner than oil?)...then there's the eventual disposal of the batteries etc...I might consider Hydrogen some day...?
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      05-07-2017, 08:10 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by heart_doctor View Post
Well, I took my 2017 BMW m2 with 1700 miles on it to my favorite detail shop and they gave me a BMW i3 as a loaner. All I have to say is if this is the future of the automotive industry im keeping my m2 for the next 50 years. I know it was an i3 and not a "high performance" EV but it's absolutely awful ...

What I don't understand is how a company like tesla which sells only 80,000 cars per year, has some quality issues, looses hundreds of million dollars a year has a market cap bigger than GM and Ford motor company.

I personally never see EV's as more than a niche product for tree huggers who are fooling themselves as they plug their cars into outlets supplied by coal burning power plants. Oil is cheap and plentiful and evs are expensive to build and do absolutely nothing for the environment.

Give me and ICE any day of the week over an electric car .... even a tesla.

What do people think?
I have never driven an EV, however, they don't pollute quite the same. Agreed that the electrical power may not be as clean as some would like everyone to believe, but a gas engine pollutes pretty badly when cold short trips are not just hard on the engine, but the environment as well. So depending on what you are comparing the EV might be better environmentally. If your commute is lets say 8 miles or less each way, or you daily driver is only making short trips for groceries and other needs the electric car might make more sense.

Further, as solar gets better and more houses are equipped with them AND if the solar panels can recharge the car, then obviously there is no comparison pollution wise. Will we get there? Maybe, I think the electric/hybrid car is pretty much here to stay, in 20 or 30 years they might be the majority of cars on the road depending on how the technology develops. We will still need the fossil fuels for aircraft, shipping and probably other things. My .02

PS, I'm keeping my M2.
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      05-07-2017, 08:29 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by BMWZ4 View Post
My neighbor has an i3 (and a 1M & 235i). I've driven the i3...terrible, IMO. In any case, this part of your statement is spot on:

"...who are fooling themselves as they plug their cars into outlets supplied by coal burning power plants. Oil is cheap and plentiful and evs are expensive to build and do absolutely nothing for the environment..."

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Lithium is only mined in 5 countries and will probably be in short supply (sooner than oil?)...then there's the eventual disposal of the batteries etc...I might consider Hydrogen some day...?
You raise a good point about the lithium. It can and is recycled. There are a lot of them out there now in all kinds of devices. Science is continuing to advance battery technology and I bet there will be some other battery technology at some point down the road. Other types will work as well and they all have disposal issues. look at all the lead-acid batteries that are in use now, they are much harder on the environment if not disposed of correctly.

I like the Hydrogen option as well, it burns perfectly clean when used as a fuel, explosions notwithstanding, we should be able to manage the fuel either as a direct source or fuel cell for electric power generation.
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      05-07-2017, 08:45 AM   #5
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One thing that most people buying electrics and hybrids fail to recognize is that just the production process for all the batteries necessary for their vehicles causes an immense amount of pollution, in addition to using valuable resources. Improper disposal of batteries and the expense of replacement battery packs are issues too.

In addition, what's going to happen to the electric car market when the 2025 CAFE standards are lowered? Americans aren't buying electrics now; in fact, how many electric or hybrid models have already disappeared from the marketplace?

I'm also tired of the attitude of many hybrid owners, who think their vehicles with an electric-only range of 11 miles are actually doing some good for the environment. Every time I look at the nameplate "Prius," I see the word "Pious."

And, just so you don't think I'm being overly negative about this subject, check what I think is one of the best ads ever produced by "Saturday Night Live." I wish I had written it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1tbf8muMc.

Last edited by Spa2k; 05-07-2017 at 08:57 AM..
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      05-07-2017, 09:11 AM   #6
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In owning an EV, I would also suffer horribly from "range anxiety". While ok for commuting, errands etc, I have a cottage that's roughly 360 miles from my home and would obviously never make it on a single charge. I'm not willing to pull off the main highway to charge my vehicle (at best) for 15 mins.

I don't have the solution obviously, but seems to me Lithium isn't the final solution (IMO).
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      05-07-2017, 09:35 AM   #7
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Best thread title since Austin yellow M2!!!
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      05-07-2017, 09:50 AM   #8
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Nice review of the i3. EVs are the best!
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      05-07-2017, 09:59 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWZ4 View Post
Also, if I'm not mistaken, Lithium is only mined in 5 countries and will probably be in short supply (sooner than oil?)...then there's the eventual disposal of the batteries etc...I might consider Hydrogen some day...?
It's mined/recovered by 5 countries but those just happen to be the major ones. Nobody else is doing it because there's not enough demand. Basically there is a ton of lithium out there. The world has a very plentiful supply.

Yes; an electric motor is more efficient so you could argue that it doesn't matter if power plants are creating the electricity. But it really is the full cycle that concerns me. We seem to be completely unconcerned about what exactly we will do with the mountains of useless expended batteries. Some people seem to think we can recycle them; those people weren't paying attention in high school chemistry.

The fuss about GHGs can be largely mitigated quickly from a switch off coal power production to natural gas, solar, and nuclear. Right away that would take global emissions way down.

As for the i3. Horrendous.
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      05-07-2017, 10:14 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
It's mined/recovered by 5 countries but those just happen to be the major ones. Nobody else is doing it because there's not enough demand. Basically there is a ton of lithium out there. The world has a very plentiful supply.

Yes; an electric motor is more efficient so you could argue that it doesn't matter if power plants are creating the electricity. But it really is the full cycle that concerns me. We seem to be completely unconcerned about what exactly we will do with the mountains of useless expended batteries. Some people seem to think we can recycle them; those people weren't paying attention in high school chemistry.

The fuss about GHGs can be largely mitigated quickly from a switch off coal power production to natural gas, solar, and nuclear. Right away that would take global emissions way down.

As for the i3. Horrendous.
Are you saying that the batteries cannot be recycled? There is just a small amount of Lithium but there are other metals more valuable that factor into the recycling of the Li-ion batteries. It's an economic problem not chemistry, were you paying attention?

Last edited by Zippster; 05-07-2017 at 10:20 AM.. Reason: more info
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      05-07-2017, 10:29 AM   #11
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A very good thread! Have not driven the i3, but I have driven in a Nissan Leaf and there is nothing wrong with it as a mode of transport. Actually kind of peppy. No driving dynamics to speak of, but lots of go.

I do believe that electric, and perhaps more immediately hybrid, is the way of the future for road travel. Power generation and storage are big challenges. But they have obviously figured out the mechanics of how to use the power to deliver a workable vehicle. That being said, there are a lot of places in society where the energy density of petroleum hydrocarbons cannot be replaced (I am thinking air travel and space travel in the foreseeable future). Plus the oil-based industry and infrastructure is like a huge post-panamax container ship... it will take a loooooong time to change direction.

As others have noted, an electric vehicle is not 'zero emission' it is displaced emission. Many miss that aspect of it, that somewhere there is a smokestack that is replacing the tailpipe of their vehicle. Hopefully the source material to energy conversion (and subsequent transmission) is more efficient than in an IC engine, but I do not know if that is currently the case. If the power plants are fueled by natural gas, it is likely much more efficient, but I don't know about coal. But don't forget it is easier to regulate the efficiency and compliance of a large power plant than it is chasing down and testing the thousands of cars on the road that would be the IC equivalent. Also, hydro, solar and wind are growing - different impact footprints I know, but still much better than carbon to electricity.

The argument of the impact of the vehicle production is likely a red herring. There are many other impacts to IC vehicle production as well, so it may be a wash. Lithium mining is a solution mining industry - very water intensive (which has its own constraints) but as long as the water management is robust it can be less of an impact that traditional open pit mining.

My M2 may be my last IC vehicle, so I am going to enjoy the heck out of it!
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      05-07-2017, 10:45 AM   #12
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My family and I were walking in down town Binghamton on Friday night. Our dinner destination was 0.6 miles from our first stop, so not knowing the parking situation, I said let's walk. On the way back we passed a kind of old shack that actually has some machine shops in it and has signage about electric cars or something. But anyway on the side of the building was a Free Hookup to charge your electric car! LOL. Those guys are so 'green' they are giving away their coal-fired-plant-generated-clean-electricity to anyone who has a government-tax-subsidized-electric-car.

Perhaps if the US government ever lets the US install more NUCLEAR power plants then electric cars would make sense. The fact remains that Gasoline/Oil are much more efficient. The infrastructure is in place EVERYWHERE on the planet, and every time we burn a barrel of oil, someone finds 100 more somewhere on the planet. We have plenty.

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      05-07-2017, 10:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heart_doctor View Post
Well, I took my 2017 BMW m2 with 1700 miles on it to my favorite detail shop and they gave me a BMW i3 as a loaner. All I have to say is if this is the future of the automotive industry im keeping my m2 for the next 50 years. I know it was an i3 and not a "high performance" EV but it's absolutely awful ...

What I don't understand is how a company like tesla which sells only 80,000 cars per year, has some quality issues, looses hundreds of million dollars a year has a market cap bigger than GM and Ford motor company.

I personally never see EV's as more than a niche product for tree huggers who are fooling themselves as they plug their cars into outlets supplied by coal burning power plants. Oil is cheap and plentiful and evs are expensive to build and do absolutely nothing for the environment.

Give me and ICE any day of the week over an electric car .... even a tesla.

What do people think?
I drive an i3 as a daily driver along with a few other high performance ICE cars. Not sure how the i3 is "absolutely awful" as it is my go to car for around town daily driving over the likes of C63S, M3, Megane Trophy-R, M135i. The instant torque and the fun rear drive chassis is ideal for around town.
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      05-07-2017, 11:54 AM   #14
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The i3 interior is ideal for road head.




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      05-07-2017, 11:56 AM   #15
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A car is a tool and it's all about matching the right tool to the job. My wife drives a Nissan Leaf and we both love it. It beats the snot out of my M2 in several areas:

- It's nearly silent
- It has a plush, comfortable, ride
- Superb in bumper to bumper traffic which is 99% of the time on Seattle roads
- it hauls significantly more cargo
- I dont worry about where I park it, door dings, if someone is going to steal it
- Our dogs can track dirt and hair inside and I don't have to spend hours detailing it
- In 30,000 miles it's cost us $0 in repairs and $14 in maintenance (cabin air filter)
- Saving over $100/month in gas
- Our aging parents can get in and out of the back seat
- it's awesome in the snow without having to invest in dedicated specialty tires and rims

Would I trade my M2 for the Leaf? Not on your life. But then again, I wouldn't trade my skis for a bicycle, or my tablesaw for a drillpress, or my rock climbing shoes for running shoes. Different tools for different jobs, people.
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      05-07-2017, 12:30 PM   #16
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One things for certain, ICE is on its way out. The next step may not be lithium-based electric, but it will be something like that. The cars are mechanically simpler, the infrastructure to support them will develop, and even if it's a displaced carbon cost, the perceived cost savings for the end user are a driving factor.

My Prius drives like a POS, but the mileage and technology to achieve it are pretty incredible. As we move to autonomous vehicles, the whole idea of "driving pleasure" will become the realm of the true enthusiast. Everybody else will be happy to sit in their plain vanilla box to get to where they're going, as long as it can power their VR headsets and personal portable computers.

Eventually, non autonomous cars will be banned from major freeways, and the only place you'll be able to drive your archaic ICE powered car will be on isolated back roads. Assuming you can even find any gas to put in it.
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      05-07-2017, 12:54 PM   #17
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I drove an i3 at the LA Auto Show right as they were being displayed in the US for the first time, along with the i8 (they weren't letting anyone drive those, though).

For what it is, I thought it was actually a fun, zippy little car. I probably wouldn't buy one, but I can see the appeal for city driving.
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      05-07-2017, 12:58 PM   #18
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All cars will go hybrid or full electric, including BMW M. There's no escape. It's only a matter of time. Not yet tomorrow, but likely the day after tomorrow.

I drive also a small 100% electric city scooter since a couple of years. Limited to 45 km/h, which is appropriate for me and my personal safety (city traffic can be crazy - lots of people seem too distracted to notice you). Got mixed feelings about it.

Pretty practical means of transport to move through city traffic and sweet that it's only silently humming, but you got to drive as defensive/anticipatory as practically possible to avoid incidents with other road users who don't notice your approach and/or who are distracted by texting, make-up, etc.

Range anxiety ? Whatever manufacturers say, I can understand that. With the current technology made available, range is not impressive and is going much more 'yo-yo' than petrol engines. Drive a few steeper slopes and the digital range figure can drop fast. In my experience, the digital range indicator is less reliable than those of petrol engines - it remains a rough estimate. Restart the electric engine to get a better idea of the real range. But still, sometimes range drops fast and you get 'low battery' warnings. Personally I prefer not to leave town with my full electric scooter, in order to avoid getting stranded in the middle of nowhere. As a matter of fact, if you run out of juice with a full electric vehicle, it needs to be towed away. There ain't no electric equivalent yet of some small petrol jerrycan to help you out to the next petrol station. If it happens to me, I take out the battery and go home with public means of transport to recharge and return to the stranded vehicle.

And apart from range anxiety there may also be recharge anxiety. The more popular electric vehicles become, the more busy recharging points start to get. And recharging takes time. Manufacturers work hard to provide enough recharging points and speed up recharging, but still you always got to 'organize' this throughout your long journey with your full electric vehicle; less freedom to re-arrange your journey: the recharging point is expecting you or someone else. No such experience with petrol: no refuel anxiety, no wait, or at worst only a brief wait (queue), at the petrol station. More recharging points are a bare necessity.

Furthermore there is the decline of battery life. You all know how battery life of your smartphone evolves over time: faster discharge, longer recharge. Some cells of the lithium-ion battery of my scooter weakened or died over time. Range dropped to less than 50% of what it initially achieved. Tried to find a new battery but the manufacturer went out of business. So the original battery got 'reconditioned' (replacement of cells) by a third party manufacturer: range improved but still cannot match by far the original range. Actually, we need another kind of battery technology, with better range, faster recharge time and longer life.

I asked my scooter dealer what happened to full electric bikes when non-removable batteries weakened over time, from a resale perspective. "Well, after several years, it's scrapyard material; technology moves on; you know that in advance when you buy it", he honestly answered. He also pointed out that lots of full electric manufacturers go out of business or discontinue products, making it difficult to find replacement parts for existing vehicles. Market and technology in movement. All in all can be frustrating. And as buyer you are supposed to know all that when you take delivery.

Would I personally ever buy an old full electric car (thus second hand) with the current existing technology on the basis of my experiences ? No way, except if the full battery set got totally replaced with a brand new set at the time of the resale. And, you bet, it should be from a reputed big manufacturer, such as for example BMW, to avoid spare parts and warranty issues in the future. Resale value remains a difficult topic. Only if the State seriously sponsors electric car resale and/or heavily taxes petrol engines, resale of an old full electric vehicle has a real chance, as long as its technology doesn't get outdated too quickly (compare with smartphones and computer operating systems: support for older models/version dwindles down as time moves on; forcing you into buying the latest model/version).

Quote:
Originally Posted by heart_doctor View Post
What I don't understand is how a company like tesla which sells only 80,000 cars per year, has some quality issues, looses hundreds of million dollars a year has a market cap bigger than GM and Ford motor company.
Well, there seems to be a lot of "Hype-Hype-Hooray!"...

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      05-07-2017, 02:08 PM   #19
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I have an M2 AND an i3. I like them both. Nothing more to add really.
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      05-07-2017, 02:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ClothSeats View Post
The i3 interior is ideal for road head.




Hahahahahahaha
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      05-07-2017, 03:23 PM   #21
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The i3 interior is ideal for road head.
That's almost as dangerous as texting while driving.
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      05-07-2017, 03:27 PM   #22
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Well here's an interesting read about EV. I loved my i3 loaner bc I live in a city. What I didn't like was the lack of charging options.
http://www.nov79.com/elvp.html
IMO Tesla is a Ponzi that will collapse soon. The real potential value is in its battery and autonomous driving tech. I can see those divisions being bought out in a bankruptcy if their competitors don't surpass them outright (they will). Tesla thinks the Model 3 (which isn't even in beta yet) will scale up to 500,000 units and outsell every comparable car in its class--not gonna happen. It takes them a year to sell just as many cars that any one of the Big Five does in a couple of weeks.

In the end I do think folks who like manual transmissions, internal combustion engines, and full driving control at all times--the types who refuse to cede any control to an invisible hand (be it government, technological, or social)--will be anachronisms. Personally I can live with that.
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