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      04-25-2017, 07:31 AM   #1
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Civic Type R

I am surprised the new civic type r lapped the Nurburgring in a quicker time than the M2. Would never get that over an M2, but that is some amazing engineering in a front wheel drive car.
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      04-25-2017, 08:04 AM   #2
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I'm thinking about getting one. Never driven such a high performace FWD car.
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      04-25-2017, 08:08 AM   #3
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I have a soft spot for fun fast FWD cars. I used to race an Integra Type R, and my last car was a Cobalt SS sedan. The Cobalt was an awesome sleeper car. I used to refer to it as the best Type R Honda never built. Guess that isn't true anymore.

Should be a really fun car.
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      04-26-2017, 01:40 AM   #4
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7:43.8 for FWD Civic

Not the biggest fan for the cartoon-ish cosmetic makeups for the new civic, but that's some spectacular results from a Civic. Honda is officially back, now where is my
next gen S2K?

Just some interesting number

Civic Type R 7:43.8

996 GT2 7:46
996 GT3 RS 7:43
Ferrari F430 Scuderia 7:39
997 911 Turbo 7:47

;This is ridiculous for a FWD Civic with close to minimum modifications. With the right tire, small ECU tune and some weight reductions 7:40 is definitely a possibility. Kudos to Honda
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      04-26-2017, 02:39 AM   #5
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It was a modified car afaik. Not for sale to the public?

Just put an M2 on a dry day on Sport Cup2 tyres and one of those BMW engineers/testdrivers can manage >10s off of the 7:58 I'm sure. Just like the tyre choice of the M4CS(Sport Cup2) makes 90% of the 7:38, not the rest of their marketing 'nonsense' of losing weight lol.

It's a great achievement etc etc, but at the end of the day you still drive an ugly FWD as a daily. That's not fun in real life IMHO
(it sometimes rains overhere you know) , been there done that

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      04-26-2017, 03:12 AM   #6
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It's not the first FWD to put impressive times on the Ring. It's currently the fastest but the M2 get's also beaten by Leon Cupra, Golf GTI Clubsport S, previous Type-R and maybe even by Megane RS 275. FWD is not a disadvantage on a dry Ring track, actually FWD are so well sorted these days in terms of getting power to the tarmac, weight distribution, some aero, that at any track at around 300 hp power the fwd it's the fastest. On the fun side of things there is nothing they can do .

I drove a Type-R at the track, first ride in that car for 3-4 laps gave me work for the whole day . I had to lap it over and over to beat the time of the Civic in my mk5 Golf GTI Edition 30 Revo remaped to 308hp and 446Nm.
I'm not very proud with the driving but I'm pasting the urls any way

vs
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      04-26-2017, 03:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StefanV View Post
It's not the first FWD to put impressive times on the Ring. It's currently the fastest but the M2 get's also beaten by Leon Cupra, Golf GTI Clubsport S, previous Type-R and maybe even by Megane RS 275. FWD is not a disadvantage on a dry Ring track, actually FWD are so well sorted these days in terms of getting power to the tarmac, weight distribution, some aero, that at any track at around 300 hp power the fwd it's the fastest. On the fun side of things there is nothing they can do .
Some of the newer FWD cars are indeed VERY impressive and put out exceptionally good times.

However, I would be very careful about those Nürburgring times. People like to mix unreproducible manufacturer claims (that are sometimes shady) with actual real tested numbers and/or other claims.

The only numbers I somewhat trust in that respect are those by the Supertest of SportAuto, and those paint a different picture from that of the manufacturer claims for the cars that you mentioned:

M2 (2016): 8:01 min by SportAuto (7:58 claimed by BMW)
Leon SC Cupra 280 (2015): 8:14 min by SportAuto (7:58 claimed by Seat)
Civic Type R (2016): 8:15 min by SportAuto (7:50 claimed by Honda)
Golf Clubsport S (2016): 7:57 min by SportAuto (7:47 claimed by VW)

So, a big grain of salt is appropriate.
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      04-26-2017, 04:12 AM   #8
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Exactly outcast

The claimed 7:58 is BMWs way of saying M2 stay out of M4's way. There was an 7:52 in it (M2) but because of marketing reasons they chose the more appropriate 7:58.

All of the FWD brands are doing their utmost and kudos to them off course, but their cars aren't really 50/50 balanced, no fun, not playable with the throttle(wet) and the brands are a bit misinforming their prospects imho(prototypes/other tyrecompounds etc) and other marketing blablabla

FWD is a nice principle for mass produced cars, it's cheaper and less maintenance, but from 200/250 turbo HP in real life circumstances the torque steer and everything an FWD does is getting a bit annoying imho.


Cheers
Robin
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      04-26-2017, 04:12 AM   #9
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I fully agree. I just remembered what discussions the GT-R official laptimes vs private times lead to.
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      04-28-2017, 06:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBimmer View Post
I am surprised the new civic type r lapped the Nurburgring in a quicker time than the M2. Would never get that over an M2, but that is some amazing engineering in a front wheel drive car.
Keep in mind that Type R is nowhere near street legal and heavily modified.
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      04-29-2017, 09:25 PM   #11
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I call BS on that ring time...

The new Type R is 306 BHP and the M2 is 340 WHP...

No way that car can shave that much time vs an M2.
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      04-30-2017, 12:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S1monQc View Post
I call BS on that ring time...

The new Type R is 306 BHP and the M2 is 340 WHP...

No way that car can shave that much time vs an M2.
Why not?
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      04-30-2017, 01:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster View Post
Why not?
Because physics.
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      04-30-2017, 02:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S1monQc View Post
Because physics.
Explain.
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      04-30-2017, 06:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmzanatta View Post
Keep in mind that Type R is nowhere near street legal and heavily modified.
It has a cage and took out the rear seats... that's pretty legal everywhere...
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      05-01-2017, 07:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S1monQc View Post
Because physics.
you realize the civic R weighs less right?

and probably has more downforce/less lift.

it seems to me the civic R wasn't all that modified. we may all love the BMW marque, but objective times are just that, objective. can't just say "fake news" because we don't like the outcome.

i hope the competition forces BMW to progress
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      05-01-2017, 11:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chillindrdude View Post
you realize the civic R weighs less right?

and probably has more downforce/less lift.

it seems to me the civic R wasn't all that modified. we may all love the BMW marque, but objective times are just that, objective. can't just say "fake news" because we don't like the outcome.

i hope the competition forces BMW to progress
BMW needs to step up the game and change their direction or lose the prestige of sportiness. Everyone in the class has caught up in acceleration. Weight reduction is the key to improvement with a great chassis and hydraulic steering with minimum gadgets for the sporty variants for M and non M division. It can be done.
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      05-02-2017, 12:02 AM   #18
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It is a no brainer much easier than RWD, however hardly as fun and no where near as dynamic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtr View Post
I'm thinking about getting one. Never driven such a high performace FWD car.
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      05-02-2017, 09:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outcast View Post
Some of the newer FWD cars are indeed VERY impressive and put out exceptionally good times.

However, I would be very careful about those Nürburgring times. People like to mix unreproducible manufacturer claims (that are sometimes shady) with actual real tested numbers and/or other claims.

The only numbers I somewhat trust in that respect are those by the Supertest of SportAuto, and those paint a different picture from that of the manufacturer claims for the cars that you mentioned:

M2 (2016): 8:01 min by SportAuto (7:58 claimed by BMW)
Leon SC Cupra 280 (2015): 8:14 min by SportAuto (7:58 claimed by Seat)
Civic Type R (2016): 8:15 min by SportAuto (7:50 claimed by Honda)
Golf Clubsport S (2016): 7:57 min by SportAuto (7:47 claimed by VW)

So, a big grain of salt is appropriate.
Exactly why I also only use sport auto reference times to compare cars.
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      05-10-2017, 07:58 AM   #20
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http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/s...-10982289.html

I read the supertest of the M2 now. Translated by google. Seems they had some problems when testing the M2 on the Nordschleife. First of all they only had ONE lap with a fully dry track. And the nature of the track (bumpy?) didn't go well with the chassis of the M2. (too firm?)

Maybe the M2 just isn't built for the 'Ring? Should make James May happy. And on that bombshell...


"1.12.2 minutes - the GPS meter today not only shows a three-tenths of a second faster lap time compared to the comparison test , but also the fastest ever in the sportauto test history on the small circuit in Hockenheim with a BMW series lap time. The M2 does not only wet the big brother M4 (1.12.8 min), but also legends like the M3 CSL (1.13.5 min) and those who would like it, like the M3 E92 GTS (1.12.5 min ). And by the way, without any semi-slicks. Applause please: The smallest M is now also the fastest - at least so long until the hardcore model named M4 GTS is left in the super test from the leash."

"Chassis tuning is not ideal for the Nordschleife
Enough enough, the concentration now applies to the north loop. Already in the Hatzenbachbogen, however, announces what will continue over the entire round - the M2-Heck always wants to nail to the corner outside. Above all, in hanging curves, the M2 requires a lot of concentration and you want more mechanical grip and traction to accelerate out of the curve much earlier."

"As a development driver confirmed, the focus in M2 development was ultimately placed on an agile steering behavior on the highway and on the agility on top-round circuits à la Hockenheim."

"With a lap time of 8.01 minutes, the M2 approaches up to three seconds of its factory default. But the conditions in the supertest were anything but ideal. On barely one lap the track was completely dry. In addition, the fox's tube was filthy with a binder. The grip level during the supertest was accordingly. As a matter of principle, the M2 requires its driver with a tendency to exceed the driving range on the north loop at any time. With a more conservative tuning and more traction on the rear axle, the ring would be much more possible."
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      05-10-2017, 09:16 AM   #21
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Exactly Verdi.

Civic/Megane/Leon/Golf fwd powerstations aren't exactly M2's marketing competition for Ring laptimes.

But brothers F8x M3/4 are!

Conservative M2 Ring laptimes are there for a reason....

Cheers
Robin
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      05-24-2017, 01:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
It was a modified car afaik. Not for sale to the public?

Just put an M2 on a dry day on Sport Cup2 tyres and one of those BMW engineers/testdrivers can manage >10s off of the 7:58 I'm sure. Just like the tyre choice of the M4CS(Sport Cup2) makes 90% of the 7:38, not the rest of their marketing 'nonsense' of losing weight lol.

It's a great achievement etc etc, but at the end of the day you still drive an ugly FWD as a daily. That's not fun in real life IMHO
(it sometimes rains overhere you know) , been there done that

Cheers
Robin
When you think about it.. It took an M4CS with Pilot Cup tires to be only 5 seconds around the ring.. That Damn Type R Honda is pretty damn good. We are talking 996 GT3 numbers here around the Nurburgring in a 4 Cylinder engine car!
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