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      12-04-2016, 01:58 PM   #1
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BMW flagging cars with flash and possible piggyback

Just a FYI over on the M3/M4 forums it has been announced that a new SW update is automatically sending info to BMWNA regarding tunes. No confirmation if it applies only to the M's only but just be on the lookout.
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      12-04-2016, 02:54 PM   #2
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Is the software upgrade done automatically or when you take your car to the dealer?
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      12-04-2016, 03:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HitmanHearns View Post
Is the software upgrade done automatically or when you take your car to the dealer?
I believe it is.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1327330
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Last edited by F32Fleet; 12-04-2016 at 03:49 PM..
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      12-04-2016, 03:06 PM   #4
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I smell a lawsuit coming for any manufacturer that actively collects information on privately owned vehicles.
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      12-04-2016, 03:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
I smell a lawsuit coming for any manufacturer that actively collects information on privately owned vehicles.
I'd like to hope that would dissuade them from doing it, but these car companies have such powerful lawyers who knows what they could come up with.
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      12-04-2016, 03:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
I smell a lawsuit coming for any manufacturer that actively collects information on privately owned vehicles.
Not likely since they're on the hook for warranty.
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      12-04-2016, 03:27 PM   #7
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No vehicle is programmed unless a module is replaced or there is a open campaign on it to do so.

Test plans are performed as needed per customer complaints or per maintenence. Otherwise the vehicle won't even get scanned when in. No tech wants to program a vehicle unless it needs it trust me!!!! Warranty programing pays crap to the tech performing the work and there is always a chance the car might fail programing turning into a nightmare situation.

But note that any vehicle scanned has the data recorded and sent to germany. The tech has no control over that. It's used for diagnosis and warranty purposes.

My car was just in at Bmw for a edge protector "not sealing" (torn, not sure how)
And headlight adjustment rod broken. (Might have gotten broken during the dyno session) Did not get scanned. Went in with a downpipe and tune.

Last edited by Roki187; 12-04-2016 at 03:38 PM..
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      12-04-2016, 04:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roki187 View Post
No vehicle is programmed unless a module is replaced or there is a open campaign on it to do so.

Test plans are performed as needed per customer complaints or per maintenence. Otherwise the vehicle won't even get scanned when in. No tech wants to program a vehicle unless it needs it trust me!!!! Warranty programing pays crap to the tech performing the work and there is always a chance the car might fail programing turning into a nightmare situation.

But note that any vehicle scanned has the data recorded and sent to germany. The tech has no control over that. It's used for diagnosis and warranty purposes.

My car was just in at Bmw for a edge protector "not sealing" (torn, not sure how)
And headlight adjustment rod broken. (Might have gotten broken during the dyno session) Did not get scanned. Went in with a downpipe and tune.
Check the link. I recommend you start on the last page. Apparently this went into effect within the last week.
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      12-04-2016, 05:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Check the link. I recommend you start on the last page. Apparently this went into effect within the last week.
Is it possible Bmw is collecting data to protect themselves from spending $$$ on failures caused by aftermarket products? Of course!!!!! They were flagging cars when I worked as a tech some 5 years back.
Just be smart and remove any questionable parts and reinstall oem.
I had a few customers I had to send home to remove mods because I knew they would red flag it.

We all know the risks of modding.
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      12-04-2016, 06:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HitmanHearns View Post
Is the software upgrade done automatically or when you take your car to the dealer?
I believe it is.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1327330
Reading that thread, it seems like there is no way to know for sure.
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      12-04-2016, 06:32 PM   #11
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I'll say what most are saying from the F8x side.

It probably has mainly to deal with ECU tampering as Flash messes with a car's ECU. It makes sense BMW does not want people to mess with the ECU, just like some tunes doesn't want other aftermarket companies to get their tunes. BMW can easily tell if someone has tampered with their stuff. It isn't hard for them to figure it out, regardless if it is the newer BM3.

A piggyback like Jb4 or Dinan is safer as it doesn't do anything extremely harmful or having you to pull apart your engine.

When you do these types of mods, you do it very much at your own discretion. Once they (dealership, SA) plug your car in, the computer will know. And again it isn't the SA flagging you, it's BMW doing the flagging.
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      12-04-2016, 09:40 PM   #12
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BMW has been collecting data for well over 10 years. Google FASTA data, thats what the engineers use. Its been in place 10+ years.

IMO this is probably a reaction to BM3, they're probably not happy about a easy flash solution. And its probably aimed at OBD flashing on the F8x

My opinion is they should do the same thing they do for the S1000RR, offer a factory tuning solution that fully unlocks the ECU and just void the factory warranty. Granted it tougher on a car becasue of how much more advanced the control scheme on a car is (many more torque, PID, and compensation tables) and they want to protect how they operate the motors from competitors (Hyundai) as much as from us.

Last edited by //M; 12-04-2016 at 09:48 PM..
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      12-04-2016, 09:47 PM   #13
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Super easy for engineers to to tell when we're running JB4 on the B58, fuel trims are through the roof under the higher end of the factory boost range.

Also they could monitor value PID requests throught the OBD port, pretty easy to tell the difference between an insurance safe driving dongle always requesting speed or throttle position, vs a jb4 always requesting Low pressure fuel, timing values on each cylinder, Fuel trims, gear.. the list goes on its pretty obvious and easy for them, if they care.

So far they haven't care much.

All this data would be in the FASTA files which dealers cant open and is collected every time the vehicle is connected at the dealer.

Some may be right about the dealers not always scanning via the OBD port because fault codes are stored on the key, so they wouldn't really need to unless they had to run a testplan, program or investigate a concern.
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      12-04-2016, 10:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goj View Post
Reading that thread, it seems like there is no way to know for sure.
Yeah I read through it and it appears to not be true as to a software update detecting high amounts of e85, which we run with our tunes.
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      12-05-2016, 10:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Not likely since they're on the hook for warranty.
Its one thing to collect information with customer consent

Its quite another thing to do it without their consent
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      12-05-2016, 06:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Not likely since they're on the hook for warranty.
Its one thing to collect information with customer consent

Its quite another thing to do it without their consent
Your car is under warranty they can collect and do what they want. If your car, under warranty, blows an engine but your running a tune. They will and can deny your warranty because the Flash tune could be the cause.

Not to mention if you leased the car, it technically still BMW's car, not yours completely. BMW has every right to do so, so scammers can't BS their way into a fix.

Just like some ppl on the F8x side signed up to ask for help only to be caught and admit to money shifting their 6MT. In which case BMW will tell you to go fuck yourself. One scan and look at your car, BMW NA will know if you purposefully shifted that damaged your engine.

This is the same concept.
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      12-05-2016, 08:16 PM   #17
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      12-06-2016, 08:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
Your car is under warranty they can collect and do what they want. If your car, under warranty, blows an engine but your running a tune. They will and can deny your warranty because the Flash tune could be the cause.

Not to mention if you leased the car, it technically still BMW's car, not yours completely. BMW has every right to do so, so scammers can't BS their way into a fix.

Just like some ppl on the F8x side signed up to ask for help only to be caught and admit to money shifting their 6MT. In which case BMW will tell you to go fuck yourself. One scan and look at your car, BMW NA will know if you purposefully shifted that damaged your engine.

This is the same concept.
Lease and Own are fundamentally different animals

If you own the car....you OWN the car and everything in/on it including the data generated from your use of said private property
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      12-06-2016, 08:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f30m View Post
I'd like to hope that would dissuade them from doing it, but these car companies have such powerful lawyers who knows what they could come up with.
It would take a class action lawsuit

Recall that not too long ago the recent case on the digital millenium act where most ALL automobile manufacturers had signed onto a suit trying to bar anyone but the manufacturer from accessing the electronics/computer systems of the car

http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/27/9...g-car-software

Car manufacturers got slapped down HARD and I bet that faced with a class action suit/legal challenge they would be required to provide access to any/all information being collected
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      12-06-2016, 08:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by f30m View Post
I'd like to hope that would dissuade them from doing it, but these car companies have such powerful lawyers who knows what they could come up with.
It would take a class action lawsuit

Recall that not too long ago the recent case on the digital millenium act where most ALL automobile manufacturers had signed onto a suit trying to bar anyone but the manufacturer from accessing the electronics/computer systems of the car

http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/27/9...g-car-software

Car manufacturers got slapped down HARD and I bet that faced with a class action suit/legal challenge they would be required to provide access to any/all information being collected
You're exactly right, I'm somewhat familiar with that case. I just hope that there's no way to get around the laws by claiming something like consumer protection to get around needing consent. I don't want BMW to know when I've tuned my car as much as the next guy!
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      12-07-2016, 03:17 PM   #21
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Update: This is old news apparently. BMW has been collecting ( I. e. FASTA) data for years and is apparently beginning to act on it.

Bad news for Flash tunes.
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      12-07-2016, 11:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
Lease and Own are fundamentally different animals

If you own the car....you OWN the car and everything in/on it including the data generated from your use of said private property
That sounds naive. I own my iPhone, but the second I connect it to the intenet my data is being pilfered by tech companies, the government, the Russians, who the fuck knows who else. Unfortunately any expectation of privacy is no longer reasonable practically speaking for any connected device, including a car. On principle I agree with you but in practice that's just not the world we're living in.
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