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      01-07-2016, 08:30 PM   #1
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Better Handling and More Agile: M2 or M3/M4?

I know the M3/M4 has more power than the M2. But does anyone know if the M2 will have better handling and more agility due to less weight than M3/M4?
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      01-07-2016, 08:41 PM   #2
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Should be the M2 - but this could be really subjective. Shorter wheelbases are usually more playful, might be a better designation.
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      01-07-2016, 08:53 PM   #3
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Can't remember which BMW engineer made the statement but he said that the M2 is a better pure handling car for his taste.
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      01-07-2016, 09:10 PM   #4
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What less weight? An inconsequntial 50 lbs or so?

I'm going to guess the M2 will be more agile but not necessarily better handling than the M3/4.
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      01-07-2016, 09:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auf Deutsch View Post
What less weight? An inconsequntial 50 lbs or so?

I'm going to guess the M2 will be more agile but not necessarily better handling than the M3/4.
Actually it will be much more than that for most markets in real life. Why? Because most M3/4 will be specced with adaptive damper, HUD, full leather etc etc, whereas M2s will not have additional options like those to spec. The factory figures are at the lightest available configuration, but markets like Australia for example have the M3 fully optioned as standard.
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      01-08-2016, 06:38 AM   #6
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Also, the interviews with the M engineers have revealed that the M2 is focused more on performance and does not have to strike a balance between performance and comfort as the M3/M4 must (due to the more grown-up customers). This was one of the reasons given for not providing adaptive dampers since the spring must be compromised to work between significantly different damping points - though this is convenient excuse for not providing adaptive damping on the M2!

Even with my limited experience of the M4, it doesn't set a particularly high bar for handling on a wet or poorly surfaced road (in other words, 90% of UK road driving) so the M engineers would need to have screwed up pretty badly for the M2 not to be at least as good.

Of course, everyone's perception will be different. I'm prepared to drop £50K on an M2 so I'm sure I'll find reasons that it's handling is good. Equally, anyone who's paid £60K for an M3/M4 will find reasons that the handling is better! We'll need Evo magazine to arbitrate and, as they don't like the M3/M4 much...
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      01-08-2016, 08:09 AM   #7
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Has to be the M2 or aside from a small price difference little point.

Will be the M2 for sure, shorter wheelbase and smaller car will make it feel nimble.
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      01-08-2016, 08:19 AM   #8
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M2 should "feel" more nimble and agile but on a track, M3/M4 may have better lap time due to more power on straightaways
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      01-08-2016, 10:39 AM   #9
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Let's wait for the M2 test reviews later this Winter. But we may already assume that BMW has properly done its homework.

The 1M got the E9X M3 underpinnings and wasn't particularly lightweight with its 3296 lbs / 1495 kg curb weight. But its compact size was/is an advantage.

Though the M2 (6MT) is 3.46 in / 88 mm longer and 2.01 in / 51 mm wider + got 30 hp more than the 1M, both cars share exactly the same curb weight: 3296 lbs / 1495 kg. I trust that the M2 will also be a blast to drive.

Comparison of figures about size and weight:

BMW 1M
  • Length: 172.4 in / 4380 mm | Width: 71.0 in / 1803 mm | Height: 55.9 in / 1420 mm
  • Wheelbase: 104.7 in / 2660 mm | Front Track: 60.7 in / 1541 mm | Rear Track: 60.7 in / 1541 mm
  • Curb Weight: 3296 lbs / 1495 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3461 lbs / 1570 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
BMW M235i
  • Length: 174.5 in / 4432 mm | Width: 69.8 in / 1774 mm | Height: 55.8 in / 1418 mm
  • Wheelbase: 105.9 in / 2690 mm | Front Track: 59.9 in / 1521 mm | Rear Track: 61.3 in / 1556 mm
  • EU Curb Weight 6MT: 3373 lbs / 1530 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3538 lbs / 1605 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • EU Curb Weight auto: 3406 lbs / 1545 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3571 lbs / 1620 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • US Curb Weight (including full fluids and frequently ordered options) 6MT: 3505 lbs / 1590 kg
  • US Curb Weight (including full fluids and frequently ordered options) auto: 3535 lbs / 1603 kg
BMW M2
  • Length: 175.9 in / 4468 mm | Width: 73.0 in / 1854 mm | Height: 55.5 in / 1410 mm
  • Wheelbase: 106.0 in / 2693 mm | Front Track: 62.2 in / 1579 mm | Rear Track: 63.0 in / 1601 mm
  • EU Curb Weight 6MT: 3296 lbs / 1495 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3461 lbs / 1570 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • EU Curb Weight DCT: 3351 lbs / 1520 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3516 lbs / 1595 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
BMW E46 M3
  • Length: 176.8|176.9 in / 4491|4493 mm | Width: 70.1 in / 1781 mm | Height: 54.0|53.9 in / 1372|1369 mm)
  • Wheelbase: 107.5 in / 2730 mm
  • Curb weight: 3415 lbs / 1549 kg
BMW F80 M3
  • Length: 183.9 in / 4671 mm | Width: 73.9 in / 1877 mm | Height: 56.0 in / 1424 mm
  • Wheelbase: 110.7 in / 2812 mm | Front Track: 62.1 in / 1579 mm | Rear Track: 63.1 / 1603 mm
  • Weight: 3300 lbs / 1497 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | 3466 lbs / 1572 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • US curb weight (including full fluids and frequently ordered options): 6MT: 3530 lbs / 1601 kg | DCT: 3585 lbs / 1626 kg
BMW F82 M4
  • Length: 183.9 in / 4671 mm | Width: 73.6 in / 1870 mm | Height: 54.4 in / 1383 mm
  • Wheelbase: 110.7 in / 2812 mm | Front track: 62.1 in / 1579 mm | Rear track: 63.1 / 1603 mm
  • Weight: 3300 lbs / 1497 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | 3466 lbs / 1572 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • US curb weight (including full fluids and frequently ordered options): 6MT: 3530 lbs / 1601 kg | DCT: 3585 lbs / 1626 kg
Throwing in this one just for fun: Porsche Cayman GT4
  • Length: 174.7 in / 4438 mm | Width: 71.5 / 1817 mm | Height: 49.8 in / 1266 mm
  • Wheelbase: 97.8 in / 2484 mm
  • Curb Weight: 2954 lbs / 1340 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3120 lbs / 1415 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
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      01-08-2016, 11:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanum-UK View Post
Even with my limited experience of the M4, it doesn't set a particularly high bar for handling on a wet or poorly surfaced road (in other words, 90% of UK road driving) so the M engineers would need to have screwed up pretty badly for the M2 not to be at least as good.
I would assume that the bigger car will handle better in those conditions you described. What will make the M2 fun is also a detriment. A larger wheelbase will provide more stability. Also if the mass of both vehicles is almost the same, the one with the mass spread over a greater area will rotate more slowly. This is the spinning figure skater effect - when the skater brings their arms in closer, they spin faster. In wet weather, I think the last thing you want is a car with more oversteer.
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      01-08-2016, 12:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperzulu View Post
I would assume that the bigger car will handle better in those conditions you described. What will make the M2 fun is also a detriment. A larger wheelbase will provide more stability. Also if the mass of both vehicles is almost the same, the one with the mass spread over a greater area will rotate more slowly. This is the spinning figure skater effect - when the skater brings their arms in closer, they spin faster. In wet weather, I think the last thing you want is a car with more oversteer.
Hyperzula is on point.

In other words, rotational energy. The closer the mass is to it's rotation axis, the less the moment of inertia, so the greater the angular velocity (assuming no loss of energy due to outisde forces i.e. friction).

The M2 has a lower moment of inertia. Much lower. Even if the weight is close. It will be more eager to turn, and thus feel more nimble. Mathematically.
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      01-08-2016, 01:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adem1534
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperzulu View Post
I would assume that the bigger car will handle better in those conditions you described. What will make the M2 fun is also a detriment. A larger wheelbase will provide more stability. Also if the mass of both vehicles is almost the same, the one with the mass spread over a greater area will rotate more slowly. This is the spinning figure skater effect - when the skater brings their arms in closer, they spin faster. In wet weather, I think the last thing you want is a car with more oversteer.
In other words, rotational energy. The closer the mass is to it's rotation axis, the less the moment of inertia, so the greater the angular velocity (assuming no loss of energy due to outisde forces i.e. friction).

The M2 has a lower moment of inertia. Much lower. Even if the weight is close. It will be more eager to turn, and thus feel more nimble. Mathematically.
Wanted to state things in simpler terms, but yeah. Haha

The 1M is a bit squirrelly sometimes which is why I think the M2 will be so good. It's like the perfect size.
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      01-08-2016, 02:08 PM   #13
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i think the shorter wheel base alone will make it more fun, though maybe not necessarily better.

i've driven a 228 m-sport and compared to my 328 msport it was noticeably more playful.

and its pretty much the same sort of weight difference there too so i'd imagine it'd be a similar difference.
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      01-08-2016, 02:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auf Deutsch View Post
What less weight? An inconsequntial 50 lbs or so?

I'm going to guess the M2 will be more agile but not necessarily better handling than the M3/4.
I believe handling and agility tend to be one in the same. If a car is agile, people are talking about how it moves---how it handles curves, corners, transitions.

Usually when someone says "this car can really handle", one could also say that the car is "very agile". Most cars that are agile are good handling cars, and most cars that good handling cars are agile.


Agility definition
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agility
1.
the power of moving quickly and easily; nimbleness:
exercises demanding agility.

Automobile Handling
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_handling

Automobile handling and vehicle handling are descriptions of the way wheeled vehicles perform transverse to their direction of motion, particularly during cornering and swerving. It also includes their directional stability when moving in steady state condition. Handling and braking are the major components of a vehicle's "active" safety. The maximum lateral acceleration is sometimes discussed separately as "road holding". (This discussion is directed at road vehicles with at least three wheels, but some of it may apply to other ground vehicles.) Automobiles driven on public roads whose engineering requirements emphasize handling over comfort and passenger space are named sports cars.


So, chances are the M2 with the shorter wheelbase and marginal loss of weight will be the more agile and better handling car.
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      01-08-2016, 05:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis
Let's wait for the M2 test reviews later this Winter. But we may already assume that BMW has properly done its homework.

The 1M got the E9X M3 underpinnings and wasn't particularly lightweight with its 3296 lbs / 1495 kg curb weight. But its compact size was/is an advantage.

Though the M2 (6MT) is 3.46 in / 88 mm longer and 2.01 in / 51 mm wider + got 30 hp more than the 1M, both cars share exactly the same curb weight: 3296 lbs / 1495 kg. I trust that the M2 will also be a blast to drive.

Comparison of figures about size and weight:

BMW 1M
  • Length: 172.4 in / 4380 mm | Width: 71.0 in / 1803 mm | Height: 55.9 in / 1420 mm
  • Wheelbase: 104.7 in / 2660 mm | Front Track: 60.7 in / 1541 mm | Rear Track: 60.7 in / 1541 mm
  • Curb Weight: 3296 lbs / 1495 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3461 lbs / 1570 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
BMW M235i
  • Length: 174.5 in / 4432 mm | Width: 69.8 in / 1774 mm | Height: 55.8 in / 1418 mm
  • Wheelbase: 105.9 in / 2690 mm | Front Track: 59.9 in / 1521 mm | Rear Track: 61.3 in / 1556 mm
  • EU Curb Weight 6MT: 3373 lbs / 1530 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3538 lbs / 1605 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • EU Curb Weight auto: 3406 lbs / 1545 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3571 lbs / 1620 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • US Curb Weight (including full fluids and frequently ordered options) 6MT: 3505 lbs / 1590 kg
  • US Curb Weight (including full fluids and frequently ordered options) auto: 3535 lbs / 1603 kg
BMW M2
  • Length: 175.9 in / 4468 mm | Width: 73.0 in / 1854 mm | Height: 55.5 in / 1410 mm
  • Wheelbase: 106.0 in / 2693 mm | Front Track: 62.2 in / 1579 mm | Rear Track: 63.0 in / 1601 mm
  • EU Curb Weight 6MT: 3296 lbs / 1495 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3461 lbs / 1570 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • EU Curb Weight DCT: 3351 lbs / 1520 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3516 lbs / 1595 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
BMW E46 M3
  • Length: 176.8|176.9 in / 4491|4493 mm | Width: 70.1 in / 1781 mm | Height: 54.0|53.9 in / 1372|1369 mm)
  • Wheelbase: 107.5 in / 2730 mm
  • Curb weight: 3415 lbs / 1549 kg
BMW F80 M3
  • Length: 183.9 in / 4671 mm | Width: 73.9 in / 1877 mm | Height: 56.0 in / 1424 mm
  • Wheelbase: 110.7 in / 2812 mm | Front Track: 62.1 in / 1579 mm | Rear Track: 63.1 / 1603 mm
  • Weight: 3300 lbs / 1497 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | 3466 lbs / 1572 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • US curb weight (including full fluids and frequently ordered options): 6MT: 3530 lbs / 1601 kg | DCT: 3585 lbs / 1626 kg
BMW F82 M4
  • Length: 183.9 in / 4671 mm | Width: 73.6 in / 1870 mm | Height: 54.4 in / 1383 mm
  • Wheelbase: 110.7 in / 2812 mm | Front track: 62.1 in / 1579 mm | Rear track: 63.1 / 1603 mm
  • Weight: 3300 lbs / 1497 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | 3466 lbs / 1572 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
  • US curb weight (including full fluids and frequently ordered options): 6MT: 3530 lbs / 1601 kg | DCT: 3585 lbs / 1626 kg
Throwing in this one just for fun: Porsche Cayman GT4
  • Length: 174.7 in / 4438 mm | Width: 71.5 / 1817 mm | Height: 49.8 in / 1266 mm
  • Wheelbase: 97.8 in / 2484 mm
  • Curb Weight: 2954 lbs / 1340 kg (all fluids / 90% fuel / no driver) | Weight unladen: 3120 lbs / 1415 kg (+ 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)
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      01-08-2016, 05:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auf Deutsch View Post
What less weight? An inconsequntial 50 lbs or so?

I'm going to guess the M2 will be more agile but not necessarily better handling than the M3/4.
It's on the order of 200 lbs.

The M2 will feel more lively given the shared suspension on a shorter wheelbase.
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      01-09-2016, 04:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperzulu View Post
I would assume that the bigger car will handle better in those conditions you described. What will make the M2 fun is also a detriment. A larger wheelbase will provide more stability. Also if the mass of both vehicles is almost the same, the one with the mass spread over a greater area will rotate more slowly. This is the spinning figure skater effect - when the skater brings their arms in closer, they spin faster. In wet weather, I think the last thing you want is a car with more oversteer.
That's a good and fair point, but it leaves out spring rates, damping, geometry (particularly toe), power delivery (smooth or spiky), tyre sizes and tyre pressures. Even an otherwise identical car with wider tyres at a higher pressure will handle worse in the wet. Factor in different spring rates, damper tuning, toe, etc and that will make a big difference. Particularly on rough/poor wet road. OK, we can safely assume that magazines and owners will generally be running appropriate tyre sizes at an optimal pressure. My point is just that there are a lot of other factors than weight or wheelbase which will effect handling and provide scope for the M2 to handle better than the M3/M4. Especially as the M3/M4 appears to be leaving a lot of opportunity to play for.
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      01-09-2016, 09:08 AM   #18
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Depends who's sitting in the driver's seat

The best weight shedding is done in the driver's seat: assuming same driving abilities, Danica's weight wins vs Konishiki's weight all the time.

M2 or M3/M4? I agree, we have to wait and see. It's like the old football proverb: that's why they play the games...you just never know what the final outcome will be on a given day. Go Chiefs!

Last edited by m981addicts; 01-09-2016 at 10:34 AM..
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