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      05-11-2015, 10:15 PM   #1
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F8x and AutoX

Many do not expect the F8x to be competitive in SCCA Solo or Prosolo circles particularly how it is classed right now, and they may be right. The last time I autox'd in the national circles, it was 12 years ago, I just cannot take working 1.5 hrs, standing around for 4-6 hrs to run 4-5 mins. Although its very close competitive nature is alluring certainly.

Anyways... I do not know if this car can be competitive, but here is some data: I participated with my son in the local BMWCCA chapter's autox last weekend in the Tuner 1 class. We had just installed TCK camber plates, so that moved us from Stock to Tuner, everything else was stock on the car including wheels/tires. My son competed in the Novice class for the very first time.

Driving the car was immensely fun, even my son commented on how much he is enjoying the M4, and that he and his friends have new found respect for BMW The camber (-4.1 front and -2.2 rear) helped a great deal, grip was superb in this large course full of sharp off-camber turns.

We played around with settings a little and ended up with Throttle: Sp+, Susp: Sp (it was quite bumpy and Sp+ resulted in quite a bit lost grip through the bumps), Steering: Sp, DCT: S3. And the tire pressures we ended up with 35 hot front and 34 hot rear, anything higher resulted in premature ABS kicking in and understeer.

My best time was 49.890 and my son's was 53.103, I was really proud about how cleanly he drove, not a single cone penalty. What is interesting is I was 1.9 secs off first place car, which seemed to be an experienced driver in a 2004 M3 SMG. More importantly his car is configured with the following:
DINAN CAI, AP Headers, SS Race Cats, ESS Euro Software /w Direct Flash Unit, UUC Sways (Sway Barbarian), EvoSport Pulleys, Eisenmann Meisterschaft TI, TCK DA c/o, and DZII tires.

You can find the winner's (congrats! ) runs here.

Given my rustiness, I think the M4 really did quite well by being only 1.9 secs of off first place. There was also another F80 that also did quite well in the same class with a best of 50.291 secs, which had some mods on it, but not sure what exactly, never met the driver.

I think the F8x is really a promising platform contrary to expectations; I am sure CSBM5 will have counter points
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      05-11-2015, 10:21 PM   #2
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Congrats to you and your son on a good showing
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      05-12-2015, 06:52 AM   #3
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LOL, counterpoints from me?

Sounds like a blast, and wow with over 4 degree negative camber up front one would think braking would be suffering (I'm betting you can back that off into the mid-low 3s?). I know how much fun it is to have one's kids involved too...what a blast you must have had. My son and daughter in years past have done autocrosses, HPDEs and Performance Center events with me, and we've had incredible times. Both of them were very quick learners and have turned into outstanding drivers. That involvement started my daughter down the path to multiple degrees in mechanical engineering and then the car industry where she works today for a major tire company as a tire performance engineer.

You can't really take BMWCCA autocross results too serious in that their classing structure is awful, especially for those with near stock cars (i.e. SCCA stock class car), and btw as an aside, I used to be co-chair of the autocross committee of your chapter with Gary Toyama (literally 30 years ago now!).

My comment on the F8x SCCA autox classing was that it is in B-stock, whoops B-street, with much smaller-sized competition, so trying to horse an E39 M5-sized car through the gates/Chicago boxes/slaloms will be a challenge on typical parking lot type courses; however, on a wide open course the F8x will definitely close that deficiency with its brute power as long as you can put it down effectively coming off elements.

Build it and let's see! It will take some work to get your car back to B-street level. We can co-drive it at Nationals this year, I'll buy all the tires and help cover other expenses.

Cheers,
Chuck
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      05-12-2015, 09:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
I know how much fun it is to have one's kids involved too...what a blast you must have had. My son and daughter in years past have done autocrosses, HPDEs and Performance Center events with me, and we've had incredible times. Both of them were very quick learners and have turned into outstanding drivers. That involvement started my daughter down the path to multiple degrees in mechanical engineering and then the car industry where she works today for a major tire company as a tire performance engineer.
I am sure you are one very proud papa, well done to you, your wife and children I hoping to see such days soon as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
You can't really take BMWCCA autocross results too serious in that their classing structure is awful
I certainly agree; the SCCA circles are quite different in driver caliber as well as car prep levels, aside from classing issues.

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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
My comment on the F8x SCCA autox classing was that it is in B-stock, whoops B-street, with much smaller-sized competition, so trying to horse an E39 M5-sized car through the gates/Chicago boxes/slaloms will be a challenge on typical parking lot type courses; however, on a wide open course the F8x will definitely close that deficiency with its brute power as long as you can put it down effectively coming off elements.
Yes, B-stock for the F8x will be tough and I do not think it will ever get into F-stock. We'll see how they class the new Mustang GT.

However, this brief experience tells me couple of things:
  • Putting power down on street tires was a non-issue frankly. On the contrary, the power on tap any time helped with rotation immensely and very precisely. I truly believe the so called 'traction' or lack thereof is exaggerated significantly
  • For autox purposes the stock shock tuning and travel was perfect on this course and this day. Even though I had such exaggerated camber, the inside tires never lost traction, although maybe slightly stiffer front A/R may prove helpful. The directional changes and the chassis responsiveness is not anywhere similar to the E39, so beyond size, comparisons are not quite what you may expect
  • The steering is so precise, although a little more feel would be good, you can truly carve through the sea of cones very closely
  • The car, or the ABS system, is a little more sensitive to tire pressures than I was expecting. This maybe an issue when selecting tire sizes, particularly front to rear ratios
  • The real issue is lack of camber of course. -4.1 was near perfect for the MPSS, I would guess ideal for these tires would be -3.6-3.7. Obviously that's not possible in stock classes, so one would have to beef up the front A/R and possibly shock compression, which would put the whole car out of balance of course. I am sure the e92 drivers know how to deal with this for autox purposes. For track the setup would be significantly different of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Build it and let's see! It will take some work to get your car back to B-street level. We can co-drive it at Nationals this year, I'll buy all the tires and help cover other expenses.
The idea and the challenge is mighty attractive in many ways
However, I am a track guy, I cannot get back into Solo, although sharing the car with you would be superbly fun for sure.
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      05-12-2015, 11:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
Yes, B-stock for the F8x will be tough and I do not think it will ever get into F-stock. We'll see how they class the new Mustang GT.
Do you mean the GT350? The 2015 GT is in F-street. Really close battle at the last tour event between some of the best drivers in the country in the Mustang and an E92 M3 with the M3 just eeking out the win. F-street is going to be a serious battleground this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS
Putting power down on street tires was a non-issue frankly. On the contrary, the power on tap any time helped with rotation immensely and very precisely.
Cool! My comment about putting down the power was based on the shuffling that's going on right now with PAX values and classing as stock class transitions to street tires from Hoosiers/Kumho R-comps where the major torque cars (Vettes, Vipers) seem to be at a relative disadvantage in longitudinal versus lateral grip tradeoffs compared to less powerful cars classed similarly (Lotus). Hence I was thinking about the lighter, much less powerful B-street competition might have a relative advantage coming off elements on street tires...just random babble on my part perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS
The directional changes and the chassis responsiveness is not anywhere similar to the E39, so beyond size, comparisons are not quite what you may expect.
Absolutely! Yeah, I was not thinking about the chassis but instead the relative disadvantage in B-street with the main competitors being much shorter and narrower cars (which therefore travel less distance on course and can carry higher relative speeds (shorter path) through tighter elements, etc.).

To compare the F80 to the E39 in chassis responsiveness makes the E39 look like a Town Car. I've owned the E39 M5 for 11-12 years, and even setup like mine (suspension, rears all around, etc), the F80 is a go kart by comparison. Plus the E39 was about *the* stiffest body-in-white in the world when it arrived on the scene ages ago (wow, almost 20 years now), but at 40,000 N-m/degree, the F80 is out of this world in that respect too.

See, now you have me really wanting to wring out an F80 setup for B-street just to show it can be done!
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      05-12-2015, 12:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
What is interesting is I was 1.9 secs off first place car, which seemed to be an experienced driver in a 2004 M3 SMG. More importantly his car is configured with the following:
DINAN CAI, AP Headers, SS Race Cats, ESS Euro Software /w Direct Flash Unit, UUC Sways (Sway Barbarian), EvoSport Pulleys, Eisenmann Meisterschaft TI, TCK DA c/o, and DZII tires.
So assuming this modifications are correct, you driving the m4 was 1.9 seconds slower than a 2 generation old m3 with a significantly inferior transmission, some very modest power mods (which don't do much in autocross), a set of coilovers and sway bars, and some slightly more serious tires...

My guess is you'd crush him just by getting yourself back up to par
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      05-13-2015, 08:18 AM   #7
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I'm still learning auto-x and classifications. I've been F-street in SCCA with my e92 M3. Why would the F8x be B-street?
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      05-13-2015, 08:24 AM   #8
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I'm still learning auto-x and classifications. I've been F-street in SCCA with my e92 M3. Why would the F8x be B-street?
SCCA SEB classified the car into B-street. A serious driver will need to actually compete at a high level to see whether or not that classification is appropriate.
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      05-13-2015, 10:52 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
See, now you have me really wanting to wring out an F80 setup for B-street just to show it can be done!
That's all I wanted to hear I would trust your judgement in this matter more than mine frankly

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post

My guess is you'd crush him just by getting yourself back up to par
I am not so sure. I did make couple of mistake during my best run, probably big enough to cause a 0.3-0.4 sec difference, but overcoming the rest of the time difference with just my driving probably is not realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
SCCA SEB classified the car into B-street. A serious driver will need to actually compete at a high level to see whether or not that classification is appropriate.
As I was checking the FastTrack bulletins, December 2014 classifies the F8x as AS, I am not sure where BS is coming from, I could not find any publication for it. I think AS competition also seems more reasonable
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      05-13-2015, 11:53 AM   #10
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B-street (well, B***S**** actually) is coming from my aged brain (sorry). I was in a conversation at my last autocross where the topic was brought up and a number of people talked about how tough a time the F80 would have against the S2000 and setup C5s in B-street, and I just joined the conversation assuming it was right. I guess that's where it stuck with me from.

You'd think that since I was the one who submitted the request to the SEB back in June, and I got the reply that it was classed into A-street late last year...seriously, one would think that I would actually remember that? Guess that's what 56 years does to you though.

Yeah, so now it's actually a bit tougher since it's actually classed with the faster Vettes and the S2000CR; doesn't mean it can't get it done though. If only it could get decent camber up front like the Vettes can, stock...

BTW, I know you mentioned you're not into autox, BUT if you can get the chance to do it, take the Evolution Phase1, Phase2, and Challenge schools with your son. These will teach more about car control, fine car control at/past the limits, recovery, etc,etc than 10 years of HPDE. You guys will have an absolute blast in these schools -- promise. It will greatly complement any HPDE/track school training also.


Sorry about the class mix-up thing.

Regards,
Chuck
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      05-13-2015, 02:54 PM   #11
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#14083 M3 and M4 Classing Proposal
Per the SAC, add a new listing in class A Street, as follows:
BMW M3 and M4 (2015)

At 56 you're just a baby, it's all downhill from there, I know from experience.
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      05-14-2015, 12:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
You'd think that since I was the one who submitted the request to the SEB back in June, and I got the reply that it was classed into A-street late last year...seriously, one would think that I would actually remember that? Guess that's what 56 years does to you though.
This is too funny, funny just because I can relate to it

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
BTW, I know you mentioned you're not into autox, BUT if you can get the chance to do it, take the Evolution Phase1, Phase2, and Challenge schools with your son. These will teach more about car control, fine car control at/past the limits, recovery, etc,etc than 10 years of HPDE. You guys will have an absolute blast in these schools -- promise. It will greatly complement any HPDE/track school training also.
I went through Evolution more than a decade ago, I think I went through 3 levels of training, but maybe I am remember it wrong. Strano and Jr. Johnson were my instructors through it all, amazing training, definitely helped in the National tour and regionally too.

For my son, I think he needs to struggle a little to appreciate what it takes to drive at some competence, then'll sponsor his Evo sessions


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffM-Houston View Post
At 56 you're just a baby, it's all downhill from there, I know from experience.
Ohh please don't say that, its has been only getting better I thought, I am turning 50 this summer
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      05-18-2015, 06:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
I went through Evolution more than a decade ago, I think I went through 3 levels of training, but maybe I am remember it wrong. Strano and Jr. Johnson were my instructors through it all, amazing training, definitely helped in the National tour and regionally too.
Excellent! Jr was a blast to work with. I did the Extreme school with him and Tim Aro about 8-9 years back, using the E39 M5, and Jr loved the car and disproved long-held and non-useful beliefs I had about a few things too. Great guys to work with.
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      06-19-2015, 11:57 AM   #14
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Alright, perhaps I wasn't totally brain-fading with thinking I had seen the F8x classed into AS (A-street)! Apparently that IS the current SCCA class for the cars. Per the current Fastrack just released today:

Quote:
#16951 BMW M3/M4 (F80/F82) street classing
Per the SAC, effective immediately upon publication add the following listing:

AS
BMW
M3/M4 (F80/F82) (2015)
Note: These models were classed in the December Fastrack; the listing was inadvertently omitted from the rule book.
So, unless this is now wrong in some way, they are classed into AS which I do think they will have a very hard time running with the top of that class at the Nationals...still would be fine to set one up and try it though.

EDIT: just saw JeffM-Houston's post up above about it being in AS also. Thanks Jeff; I missed your post before.
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