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      05-07-2015, 11:15 PM   #1
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Got Camber?

TC Kline plates are in, both front and rear are set to maximum negative camber. It looks ridiculous, and I know it is too much However, for me to approximate the camber curve of this car, I had to set it to maximum, drive on track and take some measurements, and compare them with stock settings; eventually I'll find the correct range for my tires.

It is not as bad as this:

Reddit Kill Me Please

But...






Max Camber

Fronts now are -4.1 and rears are -2.2. Certainly my street tires will suffer for couple of weeks, but I think it will be worth it. In the mean time, the turn-in with MPSS tires has noticably improved, I no longer feel the weight of the front end any more, it is much more sure-footed through interstate ramps. We'll see how this translates to R888s on track.

Did I mention it looks ridiculous? It does, LOL. Although the side benefit is that now I can fit 295/30 tires up front
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      05-08-2015, 11:14 AM   #2
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Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352
Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT
WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889
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      05-08-2015, 11:18 AM   #3
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, yeah no sh$t.

Test setup for end of month, pyrometers and digi pressure gauges warmed up, test crew ready, I just need some gas

I forgot to mention, caster now is 9 deg.
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      05-08-2015, 04:22 PM   #4
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Start with -2.5 or just call TC for recommendation.
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      05-08-2015, 04:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
, yeah no sh$t.

Test setup for end of month, pyrometers and digi pressure gauges warmed up, test crew ready, I just need some gas

I forgot to mention, caster now is 9 deg.
Remember as the caster goes up you need less static camber as your camber gain will be greater when the wheel is cranked.
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      05-11-2015, 08:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Remember as the caster goes up you need less static camber as your camber gain will be greater when the wheel is cranked.
Certainly, and of course the reverse is true as well I think the stock caster was pretty good, so when we dial the camber down a little later on, I think we will end up around 8 deg.

Btw, the MPSS tires loved the -4 deg. camber, the wear were right at the outer marks after our autox yesterday and grip was superb and carcass heat distribution was near perfect. Of course this is another indication that for track duty the camber will be too high as expected. This is also an indication why many keep chucking MPSS at the track, they seem to really want a lot of camber if my results are any indication at all.
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      05-11-2015, 11:17 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
Start with -2.5 or just call TC for recommendation.
+1. FTS with E36/46 chassis you needed -3 degree up front but with the E9X there was dynamic camber built in (where you didnt lose a whole bunch of camber when turning the wheel), I dont know the technical term to describe this in detail but basically you didnt need crazy camber. -2.4 was recommended to me by race teams (Malek from MRF in West Coast) and Bimmerworld (I have a good relationship with them). I dialed in from -3 to -2.4 and my outside tire was wearing MUCh better. I have set it in at that setting now.

Rear -1.8 again slight bit less than previous gen. Anything more and the benefit curve falls (lose traction on putting power down, not utilizing the outside tire etc).

That said this was previous gen. I doubt you'd need -4 camber and would start with -2.5 and -1.8. I have spent half dozen visits to the alignment shop and used pyrometer on the track to get readings and this is VERY consistent with lowered Eibach and R comps I am running.

New gen (post E46) are much easier on camber....

FYI

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      05-11-2015, 12:02 PM   #8
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Any idea how does the camber plate come together? HPA mentioned you reuse the stock trust bearings, but it would be nice to see some installation pictures or shots from the wheel wells.

Also what suspensions are you running with? Adaptive or non-adaptive? Or some aftermarket coilovers perhaps?
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      05-11-2015, 08:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNoSol View Post
Start with -2.5 or just call TC for recommendation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lutfy View Post
+1. FTS with E36/46 chassis you needed -3 degree up front but with the E9X there was dynamic camber built in (where you didnt lose a whole bunch of camber when turning the wheel), I dont know the technical term to describe this in detail but basically you didnt need crazy camber. -2.4 was recommended to me by race teams (Malek from MRF in West Coast) and Bimmerworld (I have a good relationship with them). I dialed in from -3 to -2.4 and my outside tire was wearing MUCh better. I have set it in at that setting now.

Rear -1.8 again slight bit less than previous gen. Anything more and the benefit curve falls (lose traction on putting power down, not utilizing the outside tire etc).

That said this was previous gen. I doubt you'd need -4 camber and would start with -2.5 and -1.8. I have spent half dozen visits to the alignment shop and used pyrometer on the track to get readings and this is VERY consistent with lowered Eibach and R comps I am running.

New gen (post E46) are much easier on camber....

FYI

Lutfy
I truly appreciate the inputs. I am old school I know, but part of my learning this new 'platform' is to go through these exercises, struggle a little but earn the knowledge if you will. If I set the alignment to BW's or TCK's recommendations, first I won't know based on what they are making the recommendations and under which assumptions. If I map out at least the camber curve by trying different settings, I will have much better idea of cause-effect relationship with this car, so I can make informed decisions. This is just going to be an approximation, not very accurate, but it is better than not having anything. Also, sometimes we discover some unexpected results while going through the process, you never know

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
Any idea how does the camber plate come together? HPA mentioned you reuse the stock trust bearings, but it would be nice to see some installation pictures or shots from the wheel wells.
This is an example of learning while going through the process. I am sorry about the long answer, but I am trying to make a point: Since I never worked on Bimmers before, I thought I better take it to a speciality shop and observe the work, learn the little tricks and how alignment changes with various bolts here and there, and get armed for the next project. I took my car to a well-known race shop, generally they know what they are doing. To my dismay, they would not even let talk with the tech and not let me into the shop. I handed the keys, and when all was said and done, I got the keys back.

The installation of camber plates and alignment took 6.5 hours. I was very disappointed and thought it took too long for such a small job, however work done was really done well without any side effects of any kind and very cleanly; credit is given where it is due. Today, I tried to change the alignment myself and after seeing the amount of work involved and how poorly BMW designed the chassis setup, I gave up and took it to my usual shop where they also know performance cars very well. After seeing how they struggled to change the alignment and fail, because once you take off the strut braces and loosen the plates, nothing fits back in so nicely and easily. 2.5 hours of wasted work and we towed the car to the original race shop and they will fix it So, at the end, although I was disappointed that the work originally took so long, I now understand why it does and won't criticize the race shop's work for a second.

For comparison purposes, I could align my GT3 in less than 1.5 hour; camber, toe, caster, ride height and A/R bars; my shop used to do it in half that time with proper alignment machine. The car was designed for easy maintenance. This is where i miss the Porsche frankly. BMW just made it so hard with their strut tops and overall adjustment points in general that I find it ridiculous. Camber plates are probably the first and only mod I will do to this car.

And btw, because it takes so much longer to do these things on this car the maintenance costs thus far has been higher for me than on the Porsche, I am sure many other small things are worse than they first sound, e.g. removing the brake dust shield or the wheel hub etc. Apparently you cannot just remove the shield, the whole hub assembly has to come out and then you have to replace the darn hub assembly with new

So, as I said it is all a learning process for me, I appreciate the patience, yours and mine

So the short answer to your question, I do not know if they reused it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
Also what suspensions are you running with? Adaptive or non-adaptive? Or some aftermarket coilovers perhaps?
I have stock adaptive shocks.
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      05-11-2015, 08:48 PM   #10
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6.5 hours for camber plates and alignment, wow! Sounds like the F8x is kind of a bear to work on up front? Glad it's done for you though.
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Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352
Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT
WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889
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      05-29-2015, 03:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
I truly appreciate the inputs. I am old school I know, but part of my learning this new 'platform' is to go through these exercises, struggle a little but earn the knowledge if you will. If I set the alignment to BW's or TCK's recommendations, first I won't know based on what they are making the recommendations and under which assumptions. If I map out at least the camber curve by trying different settings, I will have much better idea of cause-effect relationship with this car, so I can make informed decisions. This is just going to be an approximation, not very accurate, but it is better than not having anything. Also, sometimes we discover some unexpected results while going through the process, you never know


This is an example of learning while going through the process. I am sorry about the long answer, but I am trying to make a point: Since I never worked on Bimmers before, I thought I better take it to a speciality shop and observe the work, learn the little tricks and how alignment changes with various bolts here and there, and get armed for the next project. I took my car to a well-known race shop, generally they know what they are doing. To my dismay, they would not even let talk with the tech and not let me into the shop. I handed the keys, and when all was said and done, I got the keys back.

The installation of camber plates and alignment took 6.5 hours. I was very disappointed and thought it took too long for such a small job, however work done was really done well without any side effects of any kind and very cleanly; credit is given where it is due. Today, I tried to change the alignment myself and after seeing the amount of work involved and how poorly BMW designed the chassis setup, I gave up and took it to my usual shop where they also know performance cars very well. After seeing how they struggled to change the alignment and fail, because once you take off the strut braces and loosen the plates, nothing fits back in so nicely and easily. 2.5 hours of wasted work and we towed the car to the original race shop and they will fix it So, at the end, although I was disappointed that the work originally took so long, I now understand why it does and won't criticize the race shop's work for a second.

For comparison purposes, I could align my GT3 in less than 1.5 hour; camber, toe, caster, ride height and A/R bars; my shop used to do it in half that time with proper alignment machine. The car was designed for easy maintenance. This is where i miss the Porsche frankly. BMW just made it so hard with their strut tops and overall adjustment points in general that I find it ridiculous. Camber plates are probably the first and only mod I will do to this car.

And btw, because it takes so much longer to do these things on this car the maintenance costs thus far has been higher for me than on the Porsche, I am sure many other small things are worse than they first sound, e.g. removing the brake dust shield or the wheel hub etc. Apparently you cannot just remove the shield, the whole hub assembly has to come out and then you have to replace the darn hub assembly with new

So, as I said it is all a learning process for me, I appreciate the patience, yours and mine

So the short answer to your question, I do not know if they reused it

I have stock adaptive shocks.
FTS Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts. From all I have gathered, the front suspension on the F8x seems to be huge pain to deal with (fixed camber, myriad of plastic covers and strut brace to remove). The setup on the 911s are much more simple (http://www.elephantracing.com/tool-b...n-overview.htm) in comparison, but again we are comparing a dedicated sports car chassis to what is basically a heavily modified sedan. But again, you have to remove the rear bumper on the 991 just to replace the air filter... and the centerlocks on the newer 991s are quite annoying to deal with (do look nice though)

It is nice to know these little details that only come with a long term ownership. Which GT3 do you also own, 997.2 perhaps? Would be nice to hear some comparison between a well sorted out F8x like yours to a 911 down the line. Kind of gathering information at the moment on future car purchase.
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      05-29-2015, 07:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
FTS Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts. From all I have gathered, the front suspension on the F8x seems to be huge pain to deal with (fixed camber, myriad of plastic covers and strut brace to remove). The setup on the 911s are much more simple (http://www.elephantracing.com/tool-b...n-overview.htm) in comparison, but again we are comparing a dedicated sports car chassis to what is basically a heavily modified sedan. But again, you have to remove the rear bumper on the 991 just to replace the air filter... and the centerlocks on the newer 991s are quite annoying to deal with (do look nice though)

It is nice to know these little details that only come with a long term ownership. Which GT3 do you also own, 997.2 perhaps? Would be nice to hear some comparison between a well sorted out F8x like yours to a 911 down the line. Kind of gathering information at the moment on future car purchase.
Thank you! Some of my comments on the GT3 is in this thread starting with post #68: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1019409&page=4

And my first review of the F8x that includes some comparisons are here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=999575

I don't think I am yet qualified to compare the F8x to any Porsche from a track perspective, I am quite far off the M4s capabilities still. However, I'll add few thoughts: I have a renewed appreciation on how easy it is to work on Porsches compared to Bimmers, and believe me, for me it has been less costly to maintain a Porsche than a BMW thus far.

I still maintain though the M4 is a bargain. I believe we are getting about 80% of the performance that a 997 or 991 GT3 offers at 50% price discount, and to me that is a bargain. As long as one can accept the fact that the 20% gap cannot be eliminated in any way, can be narrowed, but not eliminated. With the use I get from the M4, that gap is not important to me; however, for people that have never had it and don't know what that 20% is, getting a GT3 is an obsession nowadays. At the prices the 997 cars are selling, I am in shock there are people paying and driving them. They are not worth it IMHO.

The first and most important problem I have with the 991 GT3 is that it is not motorsports derived. To most people that does not mean anything, it is similar to ///M no longer means Motorsports, and I understand that. However, a Porsche GT has to be linked to the GT3R and GT3RSR and the GT3 Cup has to be based on the homologation of the GT3RS. The reason I believe that is important is because:
  • The engine and transmission have to be designed for endurance reliability and quick serviceability
  • The chassis and geometries have to be optimized for endurance racing in mind
  • The obsession of Porsche on weight is not an accident and comes from strict need and desire to win in endurance racing
  • Cooling of all essential mechanical components, including front and rear brakes need to be accounted for in the base car

None of the above are part of the 991 GT3, and to me it is not a GT car, but a marketing ploy, similar to ///M brand. So, if I am right, why would I pay a premium to Porsche over an ///M?

As you probably know, there are major engine and chassis changes to the 991.1 GT3RS. It is supposed to truly homologate the upcoming GT3R that is in testing right now, and the GT3RSR will follow shortly. Wonderful and I am on the list for a 2016 model, but I have to see it win first. It is likely I will wait for 991.2 or 992 GT3RSR just for that reason. It may be silly to most, but it is important to me if I am to pay double the price of an M car.

So, IMHO again, the best performance or sports car from Porsche today is probably the GT4. However, I'd never buy that either because of its compromised rear suspension. Again, if I am to pay a premium to Porsche I want all of the above, not a compromise. If I need to accept a compromise, the best compromise car is an M car in my determination, hence the reason I am here

Btw, here are my views and discussion with Pete_VB on the topic of GT4 (although he still ordered one and I did not ), starting with post #28: http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...1061058&page=2
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      06-01-2015, 02:13 PM   #13
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I have the same camber plates and am running -3.2 degrees in the front (middle setting) and -2.3 in the rear (if I remember correctly) - seems good so far.
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      06-01-2015, 02:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
I truly appreciate the inputs. I am old school I know, but part of my learning this new 'platform' is to go through these exercises, struggle a little but earn the knowledge if you will. If I set the alignment to BW's or TCK's recommendations, first I won't know based on what they are making the recommendations and under which assumptions. If I map out at least the camber curve by trying different settings, I will have much better idea of cause-effect relationship with this car, so I can make informed decisions. This is just going to be an approximation, not very accurate, but it is better than not having anything. Also, sometimes we discover some unexpected results while going through the process, you never know


This is an example of learning while going through the process. I am sorry about the long answer, but I am trying to make a point: Since I never worked on Bimmers before, I thought I better take it to a speciality shop and observe the work, learn the little tricks and how alignment changes with various bolts here and there, and get armed for the next project. I took my car to a well-known race shop, generally they know what they are doing. To my dismay, they would not even let talk with the tech and not let me into the shop. I handed the keys, and when all was said and done, I got the keys back.

The installation of camber plates and alignment took 6.5 hours. I was very disappointed and thought it took too long for such a small job, however work done was really done well without any side effects of any kind and very cleanly; credit is given where it is due. Today, I tried to change the alignment myself and after seeing the amount of work involved and how poorly BMW designed the chassis setup, I gave up and took it to my usual shop where they also know performance cars very well. After seeing how they struggled to change the alignment and fail, because once you take off the strut braces and loosen the plates, nothing fits back in so nicely and easily. 2.5 hours of wasted work and we towed the car to the original race shop and they will fix it So, at the end, although I was disappointed that the work originally took so long, I now understand why it does and won't criticize the race shop's work for a second.

For comparison purposes, I could align my GT3 in less than 1.5 hour; camber, toe, caster, ride height and A/R bars; my shop used to do it in half that time with proper alignment machine. The car was designed for easy maintenance. This is where i miss the Porsche frankly. BMW just made it so hard with their strut tops and overall adjustment points in general that I find it ridiculous. Camber plates are probably the first and only mod I will do to this car.

And btw, because it takes so much longer to do these things on this car the maintenance costs thus far has been higher for me than on the Porsche, I am sure many other small things are worse than they first sound, e.g. removing the brake dust shield or the wheel hub etc. Apparently you cannot just remove the shield, the whole hub assembly has to come out and then you have to replace the darn hub assembly with new

So, as I said it is all a learning process for me, I appreciate the patience, yours and mine

So the short answer to your question, I do not know if they reused it

I have stock adaptive shocks.
FTS... what manufacturer's camber plates did you have installed?
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      06-01-2015, 03:02 PM   #15
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OP, any advice on alignment for stock suspension without camber plates?
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      06-01-2015, 04:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
OP, any advice on alignment for stock suspension without camber plates?
As far as camber in front, you'll be stuck with whatever you car came with. I understand it is not adjustable at all.
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      06-01-2015, 04:15 PM   #17
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As far as camber in front, you'll be stuck with whatever you car came with. I understand it is not adjustable at all.
How about the toe?
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      06-01-2015, 11:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
Thank you! Some of my comments on the GT3 is in this thread starting with post #68: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1019409&page=4

And my first review of the F8x that includes some comparisons are here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=999575

I don't think I am yet qualified to compare the F8x to any Porsche from a track perspective, I am quite far off the M4s capabilities still. However, I'll add few thoughts: I have a renewed appreciation on how easy it is to work on Porsches compared to Bimmers, and believe me, for me it has been less costly to maintain a Porsche than a BMW thus far.

I still maintain though the M4 is a bargain. I believe we are getting about 80% of the performance that a 997 or 991 GT3 offers at 50% price discount, and to me that is a bargain. As long as one can accept the fact that the 20% gap cannot be eliminated in any way, can be narrowed, but not eliminated. With the use I get from the M4, that gap is not important to me; however, for people that have never had it and don't know what that 20% is, getting a GT3 is an obsession nowadays. At the prices the 997 cars are selling, I am in shock there are people paying and driving them. They are not worth it IMHO.

The first and most important problem I have with the 991 GT3 is that it is not motorsports derived. To most people that does not mean anything, it is similar to ///M no longer means Motorsports, and I understand that. However, a Porsche GT has to be linked to the GT3R and GT3RSR and the GT3 Cup has to be based on the homologation of the GT3RS. The reason I believe that is important is because:
  • The engine and transmission have to be designed for endurance reliability and quick serviceability
  • The chassis and geometries have to be optimized for endurance racing in mind
  • The obsession of Porsche on weight is not an accident and comes from strict need and desire to win in endurance racing
  • Cooling of all essential mechanical components, including front and rear brakes need to be accounted for in the base car

None of the above are part of the 991 GT3, and to me it is not a GT car, but a marketing ploy, similar to ///M brand. So, if I am right, why would I pay a premium to Porsche over an ///M?

As you probably know, there are major engine and chassis changes to the 991.1 GT3RS. It is supposed to truly homologate the upcoming GT3R that is in testing right now, and the GT3RSR will follow shortly. Wonderful and I am on the list for a 2016 model, but I have to see it win first. It is likely I will wait for 991.2 or 992 GT3RSR just for that reason. It may be silly to most, but it is important to me if I am to pay double the price of an M car.

So, IMHO again, the best performance or sports car from Porsche today is probably the GT4. However, I'd never buy that either because of its compromised rear suspension. Again, if I am to pay a premium to Porsche I want all of the above, not a compromise. If I need to accept a compromise, the best compromise car is an M car in my determination, hence the reason I am here

Btw, here are my views and discussion with Pete_VB on the topic of GT4 (although he still ordered one and I did not ), starting with post #28: http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...1061058&page=2
Thanks for linking those threads, they were pretty good read. Wasn't aware that the rear suspension on the Cayman/Boxster are macpherson struts, but I guess it might to do with the packaging issue with fitting a flat six in a small mid engine chassis.

I wholeheartedly agree with pretty much everything you said. But it is inevitable that Porsche does away with the old school port injected Mezger engines in search of better efficiency on with newer 9A1 based engines. Nonetheless, chassis upgrades from the Carrera models to the GT3 are substantial, and price that Porsche charges on the GT3 is not so bad in all consideration, IF you can still find a allocation for the 2015-2016 models or a used one that doesn't sell more than the msrp... GT4 is a great car no doubt, but in my opinion it is as much a glorified part-bin special from Porsche as the BMW 1M was (it was nothing more than a 135i with the bolt on M3 suspension parts and some flared fenders...none of which demands the premium that BMW or the used market charges for that car)

On the other hand, GT3 probably has the lowest front clearance of any non-exotic production cars, which will severely limits its drivability in my region, and I don't find the appeal nor have the resource to keep a car as garage queen in the near future. F80 is probably the most logical choice at the moment, given the my familiarity with the chassis, engine, and its aftermarket supports. But the emotional side of my brain has been yelling at myself to get a 911 ever since I was old enough to know what kind of a car it is. Guess I wait and see how does the 991.2 c2s/gts turns out in a few months or just pick up a used 991.1 down the line. From my understanding, if you can confirm, is that even a relatively basic 991 (even more so w/ sport PASM) will out run a well prep'd BMW (due to its stock camber and softly sprung stock suspension), with the same driver and just some track capable tires/brake pads, while still capable as serving as a reasonable DD.
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      06-02-2015, 12:46 AM   #19
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I have the same camber plates and am running -3.2 degrees in the front (middle setting) and -2.3 in the rear (if I remember correctly) - seems good so far.
Are you in the middle settings? I changed to middle and I have -2.5-2.7 up front and readjusted the rears down to -2.0. The MPSS still perform quite well at this level, but they certainly loved -4 camber better.

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FTS... what manufacturer's camber plates did you have installed?
TC Kline.

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OP, any advice on alignment for stock suspension without camber plates?
Front camber is not adjustable, and my rears in stock form were -1.8. I originally left the toe at factory spec, but now reduced it a very tiny bit +0.1 total front and rear.

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Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
From my understanding, if you can confirm, is that even a relatively basic 991 (even more so w/ sport PASM) will out run a well prep'd BMW (due to its stock camber and softly sprung stock suspension), with the same driver and just some track capable tires/brake pads, while still capable as serving as a reasonable DD.
I think the more qualified person to answer this would be lutfy as he has had an M3 and a 997.2 991S, and he is an excellent track driver. IMHO Porsche knows how to tune sportcar chassis quite well. Stock regular 911s lack camber as well; however, the shock travel is so little compared to my M4 and camber/toe curves are so favorable that not much is needed. The GT3 is quite different as you mention.
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      06-02-2015, 11:54 AM   #20
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Are you in the middle settings? I changed to middle and I have -2.5-2.7 up front and readjusted the rears down to -2.0. The MPSS still perform quite well at this level, but they certainly loved -4 camber better.
Middle setting, lowered on HAS.
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      06-02-2015, 01:31 PM   #21
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Middle setting, lowered on HAS.
Ahh yes, I forgot you have HAS. Do you know how much you lowered in the front? This good info on the camber curve
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      06-02-2015, 01:33 PM   #22
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Ahh yes, I forgot you have HAS. Do you know how much you lowered in the front? This good info on the camber curve
About .7 inches.
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