10-14-2014, 03:20 AM | #2 |
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I love his books. I have them all.
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10-14-2014, 03:45 PM | #3 |
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"Smooth is Fast" is definitely a concept I'm familiar with from my days of competing in Strongman. You want to be smooth when running with an 800lb yoke on your back. Different sport, same concept.
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Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352 Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889 |
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10-14-2014, 10:29 PM | #4 |
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I agree with the goal. Any tips or tricks that you (or any of the other pros) care to share about how to achieve it - or things we might be doing wrong that are keeping us from it?
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10-14-2014, 11:02 PM | #5 |
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Ross Bentley has a weekly speed secrets email subscription worth a few bucks.
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10-15-2014, 12:15 AM | #6 |
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Subscribed.
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die Welt ist meine Auster 2015 M4, MW, Black Full Merino, DCT, CCB, Adaptive M Suspension, Premium, Executive. Technology, ConnectedDrive, CF Trim, Convenience Telephony, European Delivery |
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10-15-2014, 10:42 PM | #7 | |
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Obviously that sounds quite ridiculous when you are approaching a 40-mph corner at high speed (say at 150 mph), you have to slow down fast and have to turn hard to make the corner, then you have to accelerate hard and you smash the throttle. When you go through this sequence you are most likely slow, because it is not the smooth way of doing it. When you are approaching such a corner, first you don't slam the brakes, but gradually increase brake pressure to maximum and gradually release the brakes. You may then put, for a moment, a large steering angle at the beginning of the corner (depends on several factors) and almost immediately straighten it leaving a very small angle, while rolling off the brakes and onto the throttle (squeezing the pedal) and manage the cars angle and attitude through more with the throttle than steering (I am not talking drifting here). I am not sure if the above makes any sense, but there are couple of things to also keep in mind:
A lot of this comes with seat time and techniques also different from car to car, for example an M3 (front-engine rear-drive with 52/48% static weight distribution) vs. a 911 (rear-engine, rear-drive, 37/63% static weight distribution); their dynamic weight distribution cannot be any more different, so you need to take advantage of the configuration while practicing smoothness One last point; 'seat time' does not mean anything and it is a waste of time if one does not have baselines and works towards well-defined improvement goals, otherwise you are just turning around in circles. So, I always recommend that drivers have some way of collecting data, look at it at every opportunity to understand what the difference are between what they think they are doing vs. what they are actually doing, then define new goals and techniques. Continue rinse cycle |
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10-16-2014, 04:24 AM | #8 | |
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Race in the wet as much as you can! I see so many people who get annoyed when it rains at the track. Some people at club level don't even turn up if it is wet, or pack up and go home early. I understand the frustrations, it is slow, it is hard to benchmark times etc. However, when it is wet embrace it and use it as an opportunity to learn. It doesn't matter what tires you are on. In the wet you have to be smooth in transitions. It forces you to be smooth, and punishes you if you are not. |
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10-16-2014, 12:36 PM | #9 | ||
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A couple of questions. Can you please distinguish between the bad habit of "taking multiple stabs at a corner" and what you describe at the initial turn-in of using (where warranted) a large steering angle at the beginning of a corner? I think I know the answer, but there is a difference between knowing and guessing. Secondly, In trying to be a good pilot of my M4 buggy I'd like to know what areas you would consider to be its strengths (areas that would allow me to push my comfort zone ) and weaknesses (where I should ease off)? I guess this may have to wait until after you take delivery (I am certainly looking forward to your impressions!). Quote:
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10-16-2014, 09:31 PM | #10 | |
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Other than that I understand you're describing a slow in / fast out corner and "steering with the rear" of the car?
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Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352 Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889 |
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10-16-2014, 09:42 PM | #11 | |
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But yeah, if you look at the braking data (g and pedal pressure) trace of a good driver in a track sprung car it gets steep very very quickly.
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10-17-2014, 09:22 PM | #12 | |||
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The other advantage I hope will be the trick differential. With this diff, the car should not understeer in corner entry, and should be able to put a lot of the power down on exit. Again to be able to take advantage of this I think we will need as big tires as we can fit on the rears, I am hopeful of 325s, but we'll see. I am really looking forward to going through the journey of finding all these answers over the coming years, it is like an expedition for me Quote:
First, I think we can dedicate several pages to what 'slow in/fast out' means, but for me it means late apexing, which I try to avoid as best as I can. I subscribe to the idea of 'fast in/fast out'. You are right, we have been taught since childhood that on a straight line we should get to maximum braking force as quickly as we can. However, I find that it just does not work with street cars, it works great with GT3 Cup cars, but those have 1200# front and 1400# rear spring, either lack ABS or have motorsports ABS and DSC. When you slam on the brakes on a street car on a straight line, the weight transfer out of the rear axle is so significant that ABS/DSC systems get confused to the level of becoming dangerous (a.k.a. Ice Pedal, see lecture vid here). Additionally, street cars' suspension components are designed for street tires and at best we get to use r-comps, but they don't do well at all with racing slicks. I had a lot of issues in learning how to brake frankly, so I collected a lot of data, and I think I am starting to understand how to best brake with street based cars. The progressive braking results in smoother transition of the weight, hence better grip and does yield shorter distances and more stable braking. However, it is important to note that when I say progressive, the difference in time using this technique to get to threshold vs. slamming to get to threshold is less than 0.2-0.3 secs. In absolute times, it seems inconsequential, but when going 120-150 mph that is very significant. I hope this makes some sense. If you don't mind getting bored reading data stuff, you can see some of the data I collected and my conclusions over here. Last edited by FTS; 10-17-2014 at 09:45 PM.. |
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10-19-2014, 11:24 AM | #13 |
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I think I'm going to have to take your word for it on the above described cornering technique. At least for now. The braking one, however, I get. I'm getting the impression that learning good track technique is akin to walking with a book balanced on your head - only it's more like balancing while running very fast, with hard braking, acceleration and sharp turns. :-)
I'm enjoying this, so I want to try and keep it going. What are the top 3 noob mistakes in your experience and how are they best corrected? Where do us rookies typically make our biggest gains? Great blog btw. I'm glad you've made your way back into the seat of an ///M. I hope it does not disappoint. I also liked the CCB section - having tried to defend them mostly unarmed. The link is here if anyone else is interested in the blog. http://drivingsatisfaction.blogspot.ca/?m=1 |
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10-19-2014, 11:12 PM | #14 |
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Great write up FTS. The first section was funny too talking about the typical macho stuff you see at the track.
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Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352 Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889 |
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10-20-2014, 12:10 AM | #15 | ||
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I have three more parts to edit and post on the data stuff, but its stiff and not so entertaining. It is more about keeping my own notes for next season classroom sessions. Last edited by FTS; 10-20-2014 at 02:54 PM.. |
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10-20-2014, 02:08 PM | #16 |
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10-20-2014, 03:11 PM | #17 | |
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The fundamental piece of fast-in/fast-out is early turn in, the advantages are immense. It is about putting very slight steering angle early on while carrying the speed and letting the car drift on four wheels, within slip angles, and staying on the power. This works for high speed corners. For slow speed corners, you still put slight steering angle early on and manage the attitude of the car with the brakes, but it is almost never threshold braking. Some people mistake this with trail-braking, but I found out that most pro drivers don't like that terminology at all. Trail-braking to them implies slowing down using the brakes; whereas managing the attitude of the car with the brakes with minimal momentum loss is something else, but I have not yet come across a proper term that would describe it and is commonly accepted. So, I just call it early turn-in and fast-in/fast-out. So along the lines of the previous question, what would be your top 3 mistakes experiences driver tend to make? My list would be:
Last edited by FTS; 10-20-2014 at 03:19 PM.. |
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10-27-2014, 01:04 PM | #20 |
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fastest lap smooth
2nd fastest lap (lost some time because not smooth in one section, but then gave up on the test of the lap so im curious what the difference would have been) rest of video - bunch of not so smooth moments!! no love from e92 section but fits this smooth/not smooth discussion. (there are more replies to exhaust sound vids than an actual trackday vid!!!) |
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10-27-2014, 07:06 PM | #21 |
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@M4isKing, I do not know this track at all, it is tough for me to comment intelligently; however, it did look mostly quite smooth to me. It may be just the angle of the video, but during the first set of essess your hands looked a little slow for the speed, but the second set seemed quite good.
Also, that was a very good save I think, well done. I think as soon as the backend started coming around, you seemed to have lifted and the angle increased very rapidly, thankfully you stayed ahead of that rotation. Nice driving |
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10-27-2014, 08:51 PM | #22 |
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Enjoyed the video and commentary. The exhaust on your M4 sounds great!
Assume that was a point-by only passing group? Those Miatas can get annoying. That was a tricky section where you're turning while your weight is unsprung. Good to see you were trying different approaches to that turn but still keeping your speed up. That last spin was predictable, though, since you were off line a bit passing that Miata (probably a little annoyed too). Thanks for posting. What tires were you running?
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Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352 Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889 |
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