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      06-25-2022, 04:23 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWriter View Post
It's actually lighter.
Yeah I was also a bit surprised by this statement. May be BMWs one is heavier? or he compared autobox vs manual, and we now think of DCT vs Manual where DCT is lighter?... But it makes no sense, isnt dual clutch literally by the sound of it implies a bit heavier setup? I am confused like you.
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      06-25-2022, 07:25 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest View Post
Yeah I was also a bit surprised by this statement. May be BMWs one is heavier? or he compared autobox vs manual, and we now think of DCT vs Manual where DCT is lighter?... But it makes no sense, isnt dual clutch literally by the sound of it implies a bit heavier setup? I am confused like you.
The facts are the DCT is significantly heavier than the 6MT (55 lbs according to BMW, C&D measured the difference at 67 lbs). The ZF automatic is similarly heavier than the 6MT also.
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      06-25-2022, 07:33 AM   #69
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If they didn't offer a manual when I was shopping for my M4 I'd be in a Porsche right now.
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      06-25-2022, 08:34 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by NightWriter View Post
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Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp View Post
What do they mean no technical reason? There is a blatantly obvious technical reason for MT availability and it's that people buy them! There was a time when I believe BMW thought that the manual transmission was going to be phased out. However, as other manufacturers stopped making them, those people who like MT cars started gravitating to the few brands that still offer them thus increasing demand for MT cars.
By "technical," he means "performance." i.e. They're slower to shift and can't offer as many gears (lower fuel economy).
If car guys only cared about performance/mpg's then we'd all be driving a Tesla Plaid. I'd gladly sacrifice performance on paper but have a MT.

Good job BMW
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      06-25-2022, 08:40 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC05 View Post
The biggest problem I think is that BMW performance cars getting too big and too heavy and numb, it's not about manual or quick automatic nor how many wheels driven.
Agreed. If I had a time machine, I'd go back and tell myself to get the 1M instead of the 135i, because it turns out that given the smaller size and (relatively speaking) lower weight, tactile feedback through the steering wheel, and etc. that instead of swapping it in a few years I'd actually end up thinking that I might keep it forever.

A Toyota 86 is like 1,000 lbs lighter than any BMW. I know it's apples / oranges, and you don't really cross shop the two. But come on, 1,000 lbs! Certainly a decent BMW can be made... 500 lbs lighter?
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      06-25-2022, 08:54 AM   #72
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The problem is - they are making it a tough choice even for enthusiasts.
Manual is an afterthought now with no research and development going into it.
Therefore the performance gap is huge - and makes it a tough sell even for die hard manual guys. When e46 m3 manual was pretty similar in perfornace to smg
The new m3/m4 is a different car with Awd comp auto vs manual.
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      06-25-2022, 12:56 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyam5 View Post
The problem is - they are making it a tough choice even for enthusiasts.
Manual is an afterthought now with no research and development going into it.
Therefore the performance gap is huge - and makes it a tough sell even for die hard manual guys. When e46 m3 manual was pretty similar in perfornace to smg
The new m3/m4 is a different car with Awd comp auto vs manual.
I wouldn't call the performance gap "huge" between the M2C 6MT (driven properly) and DCT. In fact, C&D were able to obtain a faster 0-60 time with the manual probably due to being able to better control the launch with the 6MT without excessively hazing the tires and because DCT's 1st gear is insanely steep. The 0-100mph time difference between the two cars is 0.3 seconds. So for any road purpose, the acceleration difference between the two cars up to any legal or close to legal speeds is very close. In fact, if you put the two cars in the most equivalent gear and accelerate through that gear, the 6MT car is faster since it has a 1.5% better power/weight ratio than the DCT car.
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      06-25-2022, 01:05 PM   #74
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If you're so concerned about manuals BMW, stop watering down the horsepower numbers to basically force people to choose the auto. What they did with the 6MT in the G8X is an absolute crime, watering down the HP and torque numbers (torque massively) in comparison to the auto. The G8X 6MT is slower in a straight line than the F8X with DCT (and barely quicker than a F8X 6MT due to increased weight!) which is just ridiculous for a newer model. The 6MT needs the same power output as its auto brother!
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      06-25-2022, 01:57 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelwright View Post
Thanks for correcting me regarding 911 S. But the point still stands: there are multiple companies, including BMW, where you must unfairly pay the same regardless your transmission choice. This drives manual enthusiasts away, except the most dedicated ones.
In the past, the "normal" version was the MT and the extra hocus-pocus in production was needed to integrate the AT. So the AT costed more, also because it was not yet a commodity and therefore expensive.

Now it's the inverse, it's a lot of hocus-pocus to integrate a MT and to find one that can deal with the torque and fits in, is not obvious. Seen production number is lower, you have to ventilate all fixed costs over smaller volumes. The extra costs is now generated by keeping the MT alive.
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      06-25-2022, 02:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
If you're so concerned about manuals BMW, stop watering down the horsepower numbers to basically force people to choose the auto. What they did with the 6MT in the G8X is an absolute crime, watering down the HP and torque numbers (torque massively) in comparison to the auto. The G8X 6MT is slower in a straight line than the F8X with DCT (and barely quicker than a F8X 6MT due to increased weight!) which is just ridiculous for a newer model. The 6MT needs the same power output as its auto brother!
The max torque the MT can handle dictates the max output of the engine. A slushbox can handle much more. It's not that they are toning down the engine just to screw their customers over that select a MT.
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      06-25-2022, 02:19 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
If you're so concerned about manuals BMW, stop watering down the horsepower numbers to basically force people to choose the auto. What they did with the 6MT in the G8X is an absolute crime, watering down the HP and torque numbers (torque massively) in comparison to the auto. The G8X 6MT is slower in a straight line than the F8X with DCT (and barely quicker than a F8X 6MT due to increased weight!) which is just ridiculous for a newer model. The 6MT needs the same power output as its auto brother!
The max torque the MT can handle dictates the max output of the engine. A slushbox can handle much more. It's not that they are toning down the engine just to screw their customers over that select a MT.
Agreed! It's no different than what Porsche did with the Sport Classic. The MT is mated to a slightly de-tuned TT/S motor for reliability.
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      06-25-2022, 02:19 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FC05 View Post
The biggest problem I think is that BMW performance cars getting too big and too heavy and numb, it's not about manual or quick automatic nor how many wheels driven.
Agreed. If I had a time machine, I'd go back and tell myself to get the 1M instead of the 135i, because it turns out that given the smaller size and (relatively speaking) lower weight, tactile feedback through the steering wheel, and etc. that instead of swapping it in a few years I'd actually end up thinking that I might keep it forever.

A Toyota 86 is like 1,000 lbs lighter than any BMW. I know it's apples / oranges, and you don't really cross shop the two. But come on, 1,000 lbs! Certainly a decent BMW can be made... 500 lbs lighter?
Makes Caymans look ideal weight.
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      06-25-2022, 02:35 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by unfoundnemo View Post
Note: Autocar's take on what the new BMW M2 will look like
The front bumper has been leaked for quite a while now. It's not going to look anything like that.
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      06-25-2022, 03:57 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
Agreed. If I had a time machine, I'd go back and tell myself to get the 1M instead of the 135i, because it turns out that given the smaller size and (relatively speaking) lower weight, tactile feedback through the steering wheel, and etc. that instead of swapping it in a few years I'd actually end up thinking that I might keep it forever.

A Toyota 86 is like 1,000 lbs lighter than any BMW. I know it's apples / oranges, and you don't really cross shop the two. But come on, 1,000 lbs! Certainly a decent BMW can be made... 500 lbs lighter?
It does exist.....just as a GR branded Z4 coupe
A MT is coming and it just might .......maybe be below 3300lbs
A base 3.0 without drivers assistance package with the ZF is right around 3352
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      06-25-2022, 04:52 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
The max torque the MT can handle dictates the max output of the engine. A slushbox can handle much more. It's not that they are toning down the engine just to screw their customers over that select a MT.
MT guys are forgetting engine outputs are exceeding what MT can take without putting in boxes which really are only suited to commercial vehicles. Conventional MT has a weak link in the design, without being really beefed up, which limits torque.

It's the key reason the BMW higher output performance diesels dropped MT years ago, too much torque. BMW's MT in something like a 530d (20-years ago) was far too 'clunky' to be a driver's gearbox.
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      06-25-2022, 06:47 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
The max torque the MT can handle dictates the max output of the engine. A slushbox can handle much more. It's not that they are toning down the engine just to screw their customers over that select a MT.
They could build one. They just choose not to.

Besides, plenty of tuned F8X 6MT cars are making more power than Comp G8Xs and are having no problem (for many years now).

Sorry, ain't buying it.
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      06-25-2022, 09:42 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
It does exist.....just as a GR branded Z4 coupe
A MT is coming and it just might .......maybe be below 3300lbs
A base 3.0 without drivers assistance package with the ZF is right around 3352
I hear you. I just wish the Supra wasn't so damned ugly. In my dreams I buy a Supra and Z4 both, and swap the Supra parts over to the Z4 body.
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      06-25-2022, 10:09 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
It does exist.....just as a GR branded Z4 coupe
A MT is coming and it just might .......maybe be below 3300lbs
A base 3.0 without drivers assistance package with the ZF is right around 3352
I hear you. I just wish the Supra wasn't so damned ugly. In my dreams I buy a Supra and Z4 both, and swap the Supra parts over to the Z4 body.
Different strokes.

IMO the supra looks way better than a Z4.
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      06-25-2022, 10:13 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
The max torque the MT can handle dictates the max output of the engine. A slushbox can handle much more. It's not that they are toning down the engine just to screw their customers over that select a MT.
They could build one. They just choose not to.

Besides, plenty of tuned F8X 6MT cars are making more power than Comp G8Xs and are having no problem (for many years now).

Sorry, ain't buying it.
Apples to oranges. Modded cars come with accepted risks. A car manufacturer has to consider the longevity of their product. Could BMW do what enthusiasts here suggest? Sure! ….but with that comes more liability on their part. They are a business and their priority is mitigating the risks associated with their products.

Yes, plenty of modified cars do fine, but many have issues and the owners of modified cars aren't always honest, accountable vehicle owners who accept that their actions fucked things up. No, they try to circumvent responsibility and place it back on the manufacturer (…or repair the surface issues and trade the vehicle in or sell it, leaving the problem(s) for the next owner to deal with and without disclosure).

BMW, like every other manufacturer, offers a product that will reasonably present minimal mechanical and electrical issues should you leave the car in the state you purchased it. For the issues that arise, that's what the warranty is for. Altering the vehicle outside of manufacturer specifications is the risk modders accept. I think it's a good thing that some manufacturers flag vehicles with certain modifications. I am not anti-mod……not by a long shot, but I do believe it is fair to the next owner that such things are disclosed prior to purchasing (…just like prior collision damage).
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      06-25-2022, 11:20 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Apples to oranges. Modded cars come with accepted risks. A car manufacturer has to consider the longevity of their product. Could BMW do what enthusiasts here suggest? Sure! ….but with that comes more liability on their part. They are a business and their priority is mitigating the risks associated with their products.

Yes, plenty of modified cars do fine, but many have issues and the owners of modified cars aren't always honest, accountable vehicle owners who accept that their actions fucked things up. No, they try to circumvent responsibility and place it back on the manufacturer (…or repair the surface issues and trade the vehicle in, leaving the problem(s) for the next owner to deal with).

BMW, like every other manufacturer, offers a product that will reasonably present minimal mechanical and electrical issues should you leave the car in the state you purchased it. For the issues that arise, that's what the warranty is for. Altering the vehicle outside of manufacturer specifications is the risk modders accept.
Sure I don't disagree with any of that, but how many F8X modded cars have we heard of having issues with the 6MT or DCT for that matter? I've been on the forums every day for years (like you have too I know hah!) and I cannot remember a single time somebody has mentioned a broken transmission. I'm just simply saying BMW could easily provide for a 6MT that could put out the same power level as a Comp G8X and much more reliably. They're simply choosing not to do it and in my belief, pushing people away from 6MT while pretending they still care about the platform.

We gotta be honest here, are we really trying to argue that BMW couldn't provide a 6MT which could handle another 20-25% of the torque the F8X series had and do it reliably? I just cannot buy the argument they aren't easily capable of accomplishing such a feat. I believe they either want to quietly kill the 6MT by making them lesser cars, or don't want to invest the money in R&D for a transmission that will have far fewer buyers (the latter I think is what is going on).

What do you car about these lowly BMWs anyway, go drive that Porsche!
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      06-25-2022, 11:45 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Apples to oranges. Modded cars come with accepted risks. A car manufacturer has to consider the longevity of their product. Could BMW do what enthusiasts here suggest? Sure! ….but with that comes more liability on their part. They are a business and their priority is mitigating the risks associated with their products.

Yes, plenty of modified cars do fine, but many have issues and the owners of modified cars aren't always honest, accountable vehicle owners who accept that their actions fucked things up. No, they try to circumvent responsibility and place it back on the manufacturer (…or repair the surface issues and trade the vehicle in, leaving the problem(s) for the next owner to deal with).

BMW, like every other manufacturer, offers a product that will reasonably present minimal mechanical and electrical issues should you leave the car in the state you purchased it. For the issues that arise, that's what the warranty is for. Altering the vehicle outside of manufacturer specifications is the risk modders accept.
Sure I don't disagree with any of that, but how many F8X modded cars have we heard of having issues with the 6MT or DCT for that matter? I've been on the forums every day for years (like you have too I know hah!) and I cannot remember a single time somebody has mentioned a broken transmission. I'm just simply saying BMW could easily provide for a 6MT that could put out the same power level as a Comp G8X and much more reliably. They're simply choosing not to do it and in my belief, pushing people away from 6MT while pretending they still care about the platform.

We gotta be honest here, are we really trying to argue that BMW couldn't provide a 6MT which could handle another 20-25% of the torque the F8X series had and do it reliably? I just cannot buy the argument they aren't easily capable of accomplishing such a feat. I believe they either want to quietly kill the 6MT by making them lesser cars, or don't want to invest the money in R&D for a transmission that will have far fewer buyers (the latter I think is what is going on).

What do you car about these lowly BMWs anyway, go drive that Porsche!
I still love my BMW's!

If I were a company and I wanted to kill off the MT's, I would've done it when all of my competitors did it so I could hide under the veil of, "Well they did it too!!!!"

That was easily 10….12-ish years ago or maybe more. The fact that BMW is still bringing multiple MT equipped cars to the masses in 2023 is a testament to their commitment to the U.S. of A's love for that transmission. I think they've demonstrated they are committed for as long as they can make it financially reasonable to do so.
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      06-26-2022, 12:27 AM   #88
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A MT M2 2024 CS Convertible for me please. That's all, thanks.
I'm finally at a point where I want a manual droptop BMW, but they don't offer one. Would love this.
The fact that BMW doesn't offer a manual on the Z4 is an absolute crime
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