Computer science/cyber security professionals: Education?

[XutvJet]

Question for the computer science/cyber security professionals, what is your education and is a 4 year degree necessary?

My 17 y/o son will be graduating high school in May 2023. He'll graduate with about 26 hours of college credit from some of his AP classes. Some, but not all courses will be accepted by most state universities. He's a tech guy and has taken a number of computer science, coding, and video editing/media courses. He also does video editing on the side for a couple non-profits and is currently writing/coding his own video game. Many of his computer science courses are taught by teachers that used to work in the field at companies like Oracle, Garmin, Cerner, and IBM.

During Back to School night, his cyber security teacher (formerly worked for Cerner) stated that course would give the students about 60% of the course work needed to sit for the CompTIA A+ test. She also indicated that if the student was serious about cyber security and wanted a job fast, they could get the CompTIA A+ certification and get an associates computer science/cyber security degree from our county college (highly ranked in the US) and have no issue finding a good job. Plus, all of his completed college courses would be accepted by the community college as that was the entity offering the courses.

My son has applied Kansas State University (in-state) for their computer science w/cyber security program. The program is solid, but way more expensive than the community college route (about 70% more expensive). He has a well funded 529 Plan that should cover nearly costs even if he went to K State.

After hearing what his cyber security teacher said about community college, he's now wavering on the community college route. We've discussed with him the advantages of the college beyond just the academics. My wife and I loved college and the social part, but he's not into that as much of that as my wife and I were.

Do any of you professionals think that not having a 4 yr degree will pose a road block in his career?

[BMWGUYinCO]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Question for the computer science/cyber security professionals, what is your education and is a 4 year degree necessary?


Do any of you professionals think that not having a 4 yr degree will pose a road block in his career?

I'll chime in on this. Short answer - he absolutely should get his 4 year degree.

While I don't think it's necessary to be competent in the tech field, he needs to be thinking about scenarios down the line. For example: remember the market and mini-recession of 2008? If an employer DID post a job, they could be picky and mandated a 4 year degree from applicants, even general help desk associates. So, the degree will help to ensure he is competitive in any scenario, any economy, etc.

Another advantage: sure, he could probably get a job today with an associates and maybe a certification, but some time down the road he's going to want to further his career, and a 4 year degree to get into management is just about always a requirement.

Outside of the job market, a 4 year degree helps with lower insurance rates, mortgage applications, etc. And in my opinion, it's better to get it done now while he's young. Why not get the 4 year degree from the community college? It doesn't matter where it's from, just as long as he has it. If he chooses to do online learning, he could work at a job that may even pay for his training and/or certifications while he's in school. I know of several tech companies that even offer an internship that not only will provide the training while he's in school, but guarantee a job upon graduation.

[jmack]

I'm not a hiring manager, but I have >10 YOE in Security and currently act as Security Architect for my company.

You could absolutely succeed in CyberSec without a degree if you started 5+ years ago. But the entry-level Cyber market is completely flooded now and you need any advantage you can get to stand out. Most companies treat entry-level Cyber roles (SOC Analyst, InfoSec Analyst, etc) as mid-level positions. You are expected to have real enterprise security experience to be hired. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but that is generally the case.

The most important part of University is networking and getting internships. The actual course content will be deprecated by the time he graduates. Having actual Security career experience will put you above every other recent grad with hopes of cashing in on Cyber.

Also, A+ is pretty worthless except for Help Desk. Sec+ is the entry level Cyber cert and should be easily achievable if he has any interest in tech.

[UncleWede]

Second on the A+ isn't worth the paper it's written on.

As mentioned, college degree shows much more dedication to learning. InfoSec you can't stop learning, or you've lost the battle.

It sounds like his actual experience is more in line with video/gaming. NOTHING wrong with that. If he has the creative juices, he already has some experience that can land him the first "real" job.

[zx10guy]

Been in IT for quite some time but not directly focused on security. From my observations, a 4 year degree is just some arbitrary requirement thrown onto a job posting. I haven't looked at a job posting in years even when I moved jobs within the past 4 years. My jobs were obtained through relationships and word of mouth. So can't comment on what's out there currently. But in the past when I did see job postings, it would state a degree requirement and add a "or equivalent experience".

Even though I have a BS in Engineering, I personally feel the over emphasis of that piece of paper is just societal snobbery. Yes, there are many professions that do require the education on gets when attending college. But many don't. One thing that can't be taught in a classroom is how to think outside of the box and to be analytical with troubleshooting.

That said, I don't put any weight on any of the A+ stuff or CompTIA certs. If your son wants to go after a security cert, look towards a CISSP. That has much more value and weight in the industry. Also, if you're able to send your son away to school, I'd look into the University of Maryland cyber programs. Why I say this is there's a partnership with the various three letter Federal agencies around the Hanover, MD area. I can't help to think he'll be able to get an inside track with one of the many defense contractors or government agencies to intern or co-op to gain the experience that is much more valuable than a piece of paper.

[VAcurler]

We use a college degree as a way to demonstrate that you both are capable of "adulting" and that you have the ability to follow through on something that takes a long time.

I'd suggest Security+ as a starting point. That is enough to show you are interested and know enough to be useful

zx10guy the CISSP requires 4 years of real experience AND another CISSP to validate your experience is real.

[XutvJet]

Thank you for the insight everyone. I think a 4 year degree is the way to go too. I firmly believe college is maybe half about the academics and the rest about growing up, developing social networks, time management, etc. I hardly remember much about my college courses, but my college days were a blast.

Computer science at Kansas State is part of the engineering program so, at the least, he would be graduating with an engineering degree.

As for certifications, my son said he's getting the Security+ for sure and likely passing on the CompTIA. He plans to get an internship at Garmin or Cerner, both of which are based in Kansas City, or more ideally, a security firm which there are a few in the area. A KC-based FBI agent in some sort of cyber security division will be coming to his class in a month to discuss his job and training.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

It sounds like his actual experience is more in line with video/gaming. NOTHING wrong with that. If he has the creative juices, he already has some experience that can land him the first "real" job.

Video editing and gaming are his hobbies, but doesn't want to do it as his career. He's already doing video editing as a side gig.

He's pretty good at coding and has also found "work arounds" on websites, not necessarily "hacking". He's super talented when it comes to visualizing math, functions, patterns, etc. He can do complex math in his head that doesn't seem possible.

[OkieSnuffBox]

The 4-year degree is a good idea. As someone who works at one of those big tech companies you mentioned in your OP, I don't know of anyone who is hired without 4-year degree.........unless you wanted to be the office admin.

And typically you need the degree + experience elsewhere to even be considered for a job here.

[zx10guy]

I have seen people hired without four year degrees. But I've been Federal Government focused my entire career. These individuals without four year degrees are no slouches with what they do and can hold their own against degree'd professionals.

A space where there's strong demand is cloud security. If you have the experience, any company/agency will take you degree or no degree.

[NothingButToast]

I am a cyber security engineer with no degree. However, I went the military route and came out with certs.

I would highly recommend going to college for a 4 year degree, not only so you get that check box, you learn and meet incredible people along the way. That is, if the person has the will power to stay and complete it.

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by BMWGUYinCO

I'll chime in on this. Short answer - he absolutely should get his 4 year degree.

While I don't think it's necessary to be competent in the tech field, he needs to be thinking about scenarios down the line. For example: remember the market and mini-recession of 2008? If an employer DID post a job, they could be picky and mandated a 4 year degree from applicants, even general help desk associates. So, the degree will help to ensure he is competitive in any scenario, any economy, etc.

Another advantage: sure, he could probably get a job today with an associates and maybe a certification, but some time down the road he's going to want to further his career, and a 4 year degree to get into management is just about always a requirement.

Outside of the job market, a 4 year degree helps with lower insurance rates, mortgage applications, etc. And in my opinion, it's better to get it done now while he's young. Why not get the 4 year degree from the community college? It doesn't matter where it's from, just as long as he has it. If he chooses to do online learning, he could work at a job that may even pay for his training and/or certifications while he's in school. I know of several tech companies that even offer an internship that not only will provide the training while he's in school, but guarantee a job upon graduation.

This, started out in the industry, tech cratered in the turn of the millenia after the dot com bubble (while it was dot com a lot of companies were spending money on IS/IT and scaled back, leaving a lot of people looking for work). I went back and got a degree and worked in that field but now am in a career that bridges the two skills and has a much wider breadth of opportunity, and pays a shit ton.

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Thank you for the insight everyone. I think a 4 year degree is the way to go too. I firmly believe college is maybe half about the academics and the rest about growing up, developing social networks, time management, etc. I hardly remember much about my college courses, but my college days were a blast.

Computer science at Kansas State is part of the engineering program so, at the least, he would be graduating with an engineering degree.

As for certifications, my son said he's getting the Security+ for sure and likely passing on the CompTIA. He plans to get an internship at Garmin or Cerner, both of which are based in Kansas City, or more ideally, a security firm which there are a few in the area. A KC-based FBI agent in some sort of cyber security division will be coming to his class in a month to discuss his job and training.

Not to DOX but saw KC. If youre out in JoCo JCCC has an excellent MIS associates and cert programs (or at least did 20 years ago, cant see why they still wouldnt). I did an associates there and got my MCSE and Cisco certs while getting my pre-reqs in and since JCCC is a state regents school (or at least was, like said) literally every relevant course carried over to KU for full credit so when I decided to go back to get a BS I only needed a few classes to apply to the B school.

A really good way to see if college is for them for a fraction of the price. If he cant get into the core curriculum or has issues then he can just focus on the associates, do the certs, and get out making money. That is what I did, I was a bit of a late bloomer on the educational front and couldnt get into stuff that didnt excite me, so the idea of taking accounting and calculus was waterboarding. Then after a few years something flipped, I could see the value in the stuff that didnt excite me, and was able to focus.

[Bc2005]

You can make good lifetime income in IT development and/or IT security without a 4 year degree, but there is a risk of topping out too quickly.

If you are purely a programmer/coder or IT security specialist it’s like being a plumber or electrician. Lots of work and the demand never goes away, and you can started making good money quite quickly. However, without further career development you may be working in that same area for many, many years.

Alternatives
- If you get a related 4 year degree (engineering, science, etc.) you can often quickly move from coding to managing IT projects, or leading programming teams or security teams because many of your cohorts just want to keep working at the same level. They like the technical challenges, and new work never ends, but someone has to lead the team.

- If you get a degree in a different discipline, but one that works well with your computer and engineering knowledge, you have the opportunity to move on to even bigger projects. For example a large project for a new accounting system or personnel database needs team members who understand the computer side, but also understand the business process that is being supported. That person is the interface between the business subject matter experts and the IT team. This person must understand the business process, but also understand a lot of very detailed information about the software, hardware and security design used to implement the system. In the industry this person is sometimes referred to as the system architect, because he/she ensures there is a comprehensive design that supports all the business needs.