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      06-26-2022, 03:42 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by weingarm View Post
Not exactly accurate on the F80 M3 MT numbers. They were actually lower and will be even lower for the G80/82. I'm impressed the M2 reached a 50% MT take-rate.

For the global production run, F80 was 15.6% MT (5426/34,677)
For the US production run, F80 was 28.3% MT (4548/16,057)

According to BMW's G80/82 M3/4 launch materials, they expect global M3/4 MT take rate will be:
G80 M3: 12%
G82 M4: 8%

Given these forecast percentages (and the chip-shortage/wire-harness shortage induced low production numbers for M3/4 model years 2021-2022 and beyond) perhaps <5000 MT G80 M3 will ever be produced globally!

See attached pics.
I said US. Take away the CS end of cycle production being auto only and it is pretty close to 30%Ö.

US supports the manual.

As someone who wants a manual G80, I feel like BMW has been very limited in production canít find one canít get an allocationÖ.We shall see how that shakes out.
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      06-26-2022, 11:11 AM   #90
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I do like the option of a manual transmission…

My preference would be that they offer it on non-M cars as well. It should, at least, be offered on the M340, M440 and the Z4.

That's where the limited production models could be. Not on a 1,000-unit M4.
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      06-26-2022, 11:29 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by khearon23 View Post
I do like the option of a manual transmission…

My preference would be that they offer it on non-M cars as well. It should, at least, be offered on the M340, M440 and the Z4.

That's where the limited production models could be. Not on a 1,000-unit M4.
I do miss BMW offering the manual transmission in the lower rung cars.
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      06-26-2022, 11:36 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by khearon23 View Post
I do like the option of a manual transmission…

My preference would be that they offer it on non-M cars as well. It should, at least, be offered on the M340, M440 and the Z4.

That's where the limited production models could be. Not on a 1,000-unit M4.
I do miss BMW offering the manual transmission in the lower rung cars.
For real. My 6MT e90 328 was a blast to drive…even revving out that little 240hp NA I6 brought a smile to my face.

The lower rung cars are a total snooze fest these days
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      06-26-2022, 12:07 PM   #93
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Put a manual in the Z4 M40i.

It's absolutely bonkers that BMWs only 2-seat sports car doesn't offer a manual, especially when BMW has tried to claim in the past that it is a real M-car.
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      06-26-2022, 02:47 PM   #94
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The lower rung cars are a total snooze fest these days
There will never be another 128i Msport 6MT.
There should be . . . but there won't.
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      06-26-2022, 03:51 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge View Post
The lower rung cars are a total snooze fest these days
There will never be another 128i Msport 6MT.
There should be . . . but there won't.
When I was with my ex, we purchased an '11 Alpine White 128i M-Sport equipped with the 6MT. Fun little car to whip around.
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      06-26-2022, 10:49 PM   #96
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This combined with recent news that Germany is telling the EU and their 2035 ICE ban to f*ck off makes me giddy.

Long live ICE
Pretty sure rumors I've seen is that the next M5 will be a mild hybrid with the ICE. Please correct me if I'm wrong

Rumor has it that there will supposedly be two versions of the M5; a plug-in hybrid and a fully electric version.

To the point was attempting to make is that BMW is all on board with phasing out the ICE, as they are already christening a bonafide and established M model as fully electric. This will eventually trickle down to the lower tier M offerings.


https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-...ve-up-1000-hp/
The infrastructure in the US has a long way to go. No way ICE is dead in 15 years. Hybrid will be the next king, I think. But that's just a practical opinion. Could be wrong.
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      06-27-2022, 12:18 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
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Originally Posted by jm490 View Post
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
This combined with recent news that Germany is telling the EU and their 2035 ICE ban to f*ck off makes me giddy.

Long live ICE
Pretty sure rumors I've seen is that the next M5 will be a mild hybrid with the ICE. Please correct me if I'm wrong

Rumor has it that there will supposedly be two versions of the M5; a plug-in hybrid and a fully electric version.

To the point was attempting to make is that BMW is all on board with phasing out the ICE, as they are already christening a bonafide and established M model as fully electric. This will eventually trickle down to the lower tier M offerings.


https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-...ve-up-1000-hp/
The infrastructure in the US has a long way to go. No way ICE is dead in 15 years. Hybrid will be the next king, I think. But that's just a practical opinion. Could be wrong.
+1

It's practical and more realistic. It is my opinion that we will never move away from ICE's fully unless we are legislated (…**cough**…forced…**cough**) into it. That's going to be a huge uphill battle for the must-go-green supporters who will not subject themselves to the same rules. We would have to revamp the entire trucking industry, improve our infrastructure significantly, etc. The government barely uses infrastructure money on actual infrastructure improvements now.
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      06-27-2022, 12:30 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by weingarm View Post
Not exactly accurate on the F80 M3 MT numbers. They were actually lower and will be even lower for the G80/82. I'm impressed the M2 reached a 50% MT take-rate.

For the global production run, F80 was 15.6% MT (5426/34,677)
For the US production run, F80 was 28.3% MT (4548/16,057)

According to BMW's G80/82 M3/4 launch materials, they expect global M3/4 MT take rate will be:
G80 M3: 12%
G82 M4: 8%

Given these forecast percentages (and the chip-shortage/wire-harness shortage induced low production numbers for M3/4 model years 2021-2022 and beyond) perhaps <5000 MT G80 M3 will ever be produced globally!

See attached pics.
I said US. Take away the CS end of cycle production being auto only and it is pretty close to 30%….

US supports the manual.

As someone who wants a manual G80, I feel like BMW has been very limited in production can’t find one can’t get an allocation….We shall see how that shakes out.
Agreed. US supports the manual more than any other country which I find surprising given where preferences were even as recently as the late-90s/early 2000s where Europe preferred manuals over AT.

I too am waiting for a 6MT G80 allocation (#1 at my dealer). Been at #1 since 2/2022. I was offered their 50th anniversary Jahre allocation in 5/2022 but of course that's 8AT only so it was a no-go.
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      06-27-2022, 01:52 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by weingarm View Post
Not exactly accurate on the F80 M3 MT numbers. They were actually lower and will be even lower for the G80/82. I'm impressed the M2 reached a 50% MT take-rate.

For the global production run, F80 was 15.6% MT (5426/34,677)
For the US production run, F80 was 28.3% MT (4548/16,057)

According to BMW's G80/82 M3/4 launch materials, they expect global M3/4 MT take rate will be:
G80 M3: 12%
G82 M4: 8%

Given these forecast percentages (and the chip-shortage/wire-harness shortage induced low production numbers for M3/4 model years 2021-2022 and beyond) perhaps <5000 MT G80 M3 will ever be produced globally!

See attached pics.
I said US. Take away the CS end of cycle production being auto only and it is pretty close to 30%….

US supports the manual.

As someone who wants a manual G80, I feel like BMW has been very limited in production can't find one can't get an allocation….We shall see how that shakes out.
To put things in context, manuals in Europe are not necessarily a synonym of "sport" cars, but quite the opposite. In fact all low to mid range cars from most brands are manuals with no option to automatic.

Think about Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Volkswagen, Ford, Fiat, etc. Only high end cars or brands are offered with automatic transmissions.

I drive a manual because I still like it more than an auto but most high end buyers including BMW clients of M cars will not chose a manual over a much faster and effective 'state of the art' transmission with shifter paddles on the steering wheel. That's where the coolness goes from an European point of view, and the reason why most European sport car brands have gone that route, abandoning manual transmissions.

Also, regular cruise speeds in parts of Europe are much faster than the USA, particularly on the German autobahns, so manuals with only 6 gears do not really fit there due to high rpm, suboptimal fuel efficiency, noise, and ultimately shorter car life.

So no manuals offered from European brands is simply lack of demand on their core market.
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      06-27-2022, 02:18 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanLluch View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by weingarm View Post
Not exactly accurate on the F80 M3 MT numbers. They were actually lower and will be even lower for the G80/82. I'm impressed the M2 reached a 50% MT take-rate.

For the global production run, F80 was 15.6% MT (5426/34,677)
For the US production run, F80 was 28.3% MT (4548/16,057)

According to BMW's G80/82 M3/4 launch materials, they expect global M3/4 MT take rate will be:
G80 M3: 12%
G82 M4: 8%

Given these forecast percentages (and the chip-shortage/wire-harness shortage induced low production numbers for M3/4 model years 2021-2022 and beyond) perhaps <5000 MT G80 M3 will ever be produced globally!

See attached pics.
I said US. Take away the CS end of cycle production being auto only and it is pretty close to 30%….

US supports the manual.

As someone who wants a manual G80, I feel like BMW has been very limited in production can't find one can't get an allocation….We shall see how that shakes out.
To put things in context, manuals in Europe are not necessarily a synonym of "sport" cars, but quite the opposite. In fact all low to mid range cars from most brands are manuals with no option to automatic.

Think about Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Volkswagen, Ford, Fiat, etc. Only high end cars or brands are offered with automatic transmissions.

I drive a manual because I still like it more than an auto but most high end buyers including BMW clients of M cars will not chose a manual over a much faster and effective 'state of the art' transmission with shifter paddles on the steering wheel. That's where the coolness goes from an European point of view, and the reason why most European sport car brands have gone that route, abandoning manual transmissions.

Also, regular cruise speeds in parts of Europe are much faster than the USA, particularly on the German autobahns, so manuals with only 6 gears do not really fit there due to high rpm, suboptimal fuel efficiency, noise, and ultimately shorter car life.

So no manuals offered from European brands is simply lack of demand on their core market.
Definitely different cultures. I'm glad manufacturers still produce manuals for the U.S. They are just more engaging IMHO. Automatics are to cars what vibrators are to women……..more efficient and effective, but nowhere near as fun and engaging.
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      06-27-2022, 02:22 AM   #101
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JoanLluch View Post
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Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by weingarm View Post
Not exactly accurate on the F80 M3 MT numbers. They were actually lower and will be even lower for the G80/82. I'm impressed the M2 reached a 50% MT take-rate.

For the global production run, F80 was 15.6% MT (5426/34,677)
For the US production run, F80 was 28.3% MT (4548/16,057)

According to BMW's G80/82 M3/4 launch materials, they expect global M3/4 MT take rate will be:
G80 M3: 12%
G82 M4: 8%

Given these forecast percentages (and the chip-shortage/wire-harness shortage induced low production numbers for M3/4 model years 2021-2022 and beyond) perhaps <5000 MT G80 M3 will ever be produced globally!

See attached pics.
I said US. Take away the CS end of cycle production being auto only and it is pretty close to 30%….

US supports the manual.

As someone who wants a manual G80, I feel like BMW has been very limited in production can't find one can't get an allocation….We shall see how that shakes out.
To put things in context, manuals in Europe are not necessarily a synonym of "sport" cars, but quite the opposite. In fact all low to mid range cars from most brands are manuals with no option to automatic.

Think about Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Volkswagen, Ford, Fiat, etc. Only high end cars or brands are offered with automatic transmissions.

I drive a manual because I still like it more than an auto but most high end buyers including BMW clients of M cars will not chose a manual over a much faster and effective 'state of the art' transmission with shifter paddles on the steering wheel. That's where the coolness goes from an European point of view, and the reason why most European sport car brands have gone that route, abandoning manual transmissions.

Also, regular cruise speeds in parts of Europe are much faster than the USA, particularly on the German autobahns, so manuals with only 6 gears do not really fit there due to high rpm, suboptimal fuel efficiency, noise, and ultimately shorter car life.

So no manuals offered from European brands is simply lack of demand on their core market.
Definitely different cultures. I'm glad manufacturers still produce manuals for the U.S. They are just more engaging IMHO. Automatics are to cars what vibrators are to women……..more efficient and effective, but nowhere near as fun and engaging.
I agree despite I'm European -from Andorra- but all my friends, not particularly into cars, will regard modern auto transmissions as 'superior', and to many degrees they are absolutely right

Now comes BMW and produces a manual for the -not used to manuals- American market, and destroys part of the fun by adding stupid auto-rev, upshift throttle-delay, launch from stop auto throttle and so on electronic "helpers" that destroy part of the experience of a true raw manual, which is available in any Renault or Volkswagen
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      06-27-2022, 08:03 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanLluch View Post
To put things in context, manuals in Europe are not necessarily a synonym of "sport" cars, but quite the opposite. In fact all low to mid range cars from most brands are manuals with no option to automatic.

...

So no manuals offered from European brands is simply lack of demand on their core market.
Agree, here in the UK, MT was always viewed as the cheapest most efficient option. We paid extra for AT (if available), was less fuel efficient, = little demand for AT.

Once we got more efficient designs of AT and the cost issue for larger engines was less critical, the market moved and quite fast. To the point the dealers were finding it difficult to shift MT in a lot of models. Cars could sit for ages, due to little demand. Diesel also moved the goalposts. High torque outputs required a strong gearbox, plus AT suited the diesels better than MT for most users.

Add in driving aids, which require AT to function, the writing was on the wall for most models to drop MT, even where it had been an option.

The more users buy into driving assistance functions, MT becomes like the dinosaurs.

My observation, over many years, most M-car drivers also want all the bells and whistles, AT becomes even more essential as part of the package.

MT has its place for the enthusiast, but a business case it must pose a challenge. Most markets, it hasn't a chance anymore.
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      06-27-2022, 12:52 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanLluch View Post
To put things in context, manuals in Europe are not necessarily a synonym of "sport" cars, but quite the opposite. In fact all low to mid range cars from most brands are manuals with no option to automatic.

...

So no manuals offered from European brands is simply lack of demand on their core market.
Agree, here in the UK, MT was always viewed as the cheapest most efficient option. We paid extra for AT (if available), was less fuel efficient, = little demand for AT.

Once we got more efficient designs of AT and the cost issue for larger engines was less critical, the market moved and quite fast. To the point the dealers were finding it difficult to shift MT in a lot of models. Cars could sit for ages, due to little demand. Diesel also moved the goalposts. High torque outputs required a strong gearbox, plus AT suited the diesels better than MT for most users.

Add in driving aids, which require AT to function, the writing was on the wall for most models to drop MT, even where it had been an option.

The more users buy into driving assistance functions, MT becomes like the dinosaurs.

My observation, over many years, most M-car drivers also want all the bells and whistles, AT becomes even more essential as part of the package.

MT has its place for the enthusiast, but a business case it must pose a challenge. Most markets, it hasn't a chance anymore.
Much like Porsche, BMW has a significant enough MT demand here in the states to make a case for it. Remember when Porsche killed the manual in the GT3 some years ago?!? The result was horrid for them. It returned pretty quickly after the lashing Porsche buyers gave the manufacturer. Porsche manuals are some of the most desirable cars on the market.
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      06-27-2022, 05:47 PM   #104
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That's great but I wish they improved it a little. It's such a step down from both the Porsche and Honda manuals in feel. I know there's a few mods buyers can make to improve it but would be nice if it was perfect out of the box
Ironic, because those other two are remote actuated shifters and BMWs are linkages going straight to the transmission.

The nicest shifter I have ever experienced is on the Porsche Cayman, but it's basically a remote shifter mechanism with cables running to the transmission. Modern FWD Hondas are similar. Cable shifters are generally looked down upon as cheap/generic but these guys know how to do it right.

Honda S2000 was probably Honda's last direct mechanism shifter and 2nd best shifter to the Cayman in my opinion.

With direct linkages into the gearbox, BWM could make an extremely nice feeling shifter, but I don't think they try very hard. The shifter on my last-gen Z4 was absolute garbage. The shifter on my 2020 M2C is quite a bit better but not great.
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      06-27-2022, 05:55 PM   #105
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The fact that BMW doesn't offer a manual on the Z4 is an absolute crime
They do, but only with the 4-cyl engine and only in Europe.
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      06-27-2022, 06:09 PM   #106
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I don't know if anyone here follows Supra forums like I do, but I will be very curious to see what that upcoming MT will be like. It is a ZF unit, adapted/upgraded from the MT in the European Z4. While it's bespoke to the Supra (at this time) it has a normal BMW transmission part number sequence. Since it mates up to the B58 in the Supra and has the required engine software to go along with it, technically it could go into any BMW with a B58 (or similar mounting/packaging requirements) with minimal engineering.

Being a different unit than what's in our M cars, and "supposedly" having some input from Toyota, I will be curious to see how the clutch and shifter behave and feel. I don't particularly care for the Supra, but it could be a compelling back door option to get a BMW 2-seat MT sports car that BMW itself doesn't offer in the US. I had zero interest in the automatic Supra, but MT has changed my mind a bit.
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      06-27-2022, 07:15 PM   #107
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I’m glad to hear this. My next car will be a 6 speed manual…
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      06-27-2022, 10:58 PM   #108
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If the car isn't available with a manual I won't buy it. I am not saying which is better its what I prefer. What I find amazing is that most manual cars are sold in the US when just a few decades ago it was Europe that had the most manual tranny cars.

I would buy a Mustang GT500 tomorrow if it had a manual. I don't car if its slower in a straight line. I find the lack of involvement in cars with an auto or DCT transmission to be boring.
Man, you will never get to enjoy some great exotic cars by omitting cars that don't come in a manual. The experience in cars like Performante, 720S, Aventador, 488 Pista, 812 Superfast, etc, is amazing.

Don't let lack of a manual limit automotive experiences.
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      06-27-2022, 11:22 PM   #109
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
If the car isn't available with a manual I won't buy it. I am not saying which is better its what I prefer. What I find amazing is that most manual cars are sold in the US when just a few decades ago it was Europe that had the most manual tranny cars.

I would buy a Mustang GT500 tomorrow if it had a manual. I don't car if its slower in a straight line. I find the lack of involvement in cars with an auto or DCT transmission to be boring.
Man, you will never get to enjoy some great exotic cars by omitting cars that don't come in a manual. The experience in cars like Performante, 720S, Aventador, 488 Pista, 812 Superfast, etc, is amazing.

Don't let lack of a manual limit automotive experiences.
Yes and no. The experience is there, yes, but even that experience dulls over time. Driving a Huracan EVO was a supremely rewarding experience, but I wouldn't spend my money to own one simply because I wouldn't get any enjoyment out of the drive once I've acclimated to the speed (…and EVERYBODY acclimates to speed regardless of how fast the car is). All of the exotics are great, but if autos and dual clutch transmissions don't resonate with you, ultimately the car misses the mark.
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      06-28-2022, 06:24 PM   #110
Ragged Edge
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Drives: '16F80,TR6,Defender,PA23-250T
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: CYVR

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2016 BMW M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOW4LYF View Post
Only in the US "man" need to show they can drive a manual...lol
Hahaha!!
You clearly have no idea how to drive a manual transmission car…. the pleasure of doing something well that takes a little skill, eludes you. Enjoy your drag racing and stay away from the tracks that the rest of us enjoy! Thanks!
Appreciate 4
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