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      05-20-2022, 02:07 PM   #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billnchristy View Post
All race engines get built every season, even the mighty 2J. Nothing making 3-4x factory output is going to be reliable, doesn't matter what the design is.
Not sure what a race motor means. My brothers GTR is 1200+ at the wheels. It has over 10,000 miles on it. Never a hick-up. Changes oil and runs some 93 octane through every now and then. He has run 1/2 mile events and dragged it a bunch and I beat the shit out of it couple times a month. Guess it depends on the builder and tuner. Cicio Baby😉
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      05-20-2022, 03:00 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by G MONEY View Post
Not sure what a race motor means. My brothers GTR is 1200+ at the wheels. It has over 10,000 miles on it. Never a hick-up. Changes oil and runs some 93 octane through every now and then. He has run 1/2 mile events and dragged it a bunch and I beat the shit out of it couple times a month. Guess it depends on the builder and tuner. Cicio Baby😉
Guess what , the VR38DETT is ........dun dun dun.....closed deck

Thanks for making my point
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      05-20-2022, 03:14 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by billnchristy View Post
All race engines get built every season, even the mighty 2J. Nothing making 3-4x factory output is going to be reliable, doesn't matter what the design is.
Well we are talking about street engines and what power they will make reliably.

Not race engines that see very limited use and still need frequent rebuilds.
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      05-20-2022, 03:45 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by G MONEY View Post
Not sure what a race motor means. My brothers GTR is 1200+ at the wheels. It has over 10,000 miles on it. Never a hick-up. Changes oil and runs some 93 octane through every now and then. He has run 1/2 mile events and dragged it a bunch and I beat the shit out of it couple times a month. Guess it depends on the builder and tuner. Cicio Baby😉
Guess what , the VR38DETT is ........dun dun dun.....closed deck

Thanks for making my point
I know this. I was not disagreeing with you. Was wondering what race motor being built every season meant?
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      05-23-2022, 11:31 PM   #577
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Moto Miwa reviews 2023 Nissan Z and makes comparison to A90 Supra

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...90-supra.1192/

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      05-24-2022, 09:39 AM   #578
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Looks like Nissan neutered the engine a bit with ECU nannies to ensure the engine and clutch last through the warranty period. Jason starts talking about this at the 5:00 mark. Just a few highlights as this is the stuff that early reviewers didn't disclose.
  • Says it's not built like a BMW or Porsche to withstand heavy beating on a track.
  • Says it kills power mid-slide if you hit the limiter, resulting in an unexpected directional change and/or looping the car due to the short
    wheelbase.
  • ECU will not allow a brake stand style burnout.
  • ECU pulls power when trying to shift quickly (without flat-foot shift mode turned on) in an attempt to save the clutch.
  • Hitting the limiter cuts power significantly as opposed to modern ECU's that lets you bounce off of it.
  • ECU won't allow the engine to rev up quickly in neutral when stopped.
Some of this is not ideal but you get what you pay for as this is why it's cheaper than the Supra.

Last edited by heavyD^2; 05-24-2022 at 09:47 AM..
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      05-24-2022, 10:18 AM   #579
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I was really pumped about the new Z but everything I read...the Supra makes more sense.
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      05-24-2022, 10:38 AM   #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post


Looks like Nissan neutered the engine a bit with ECU nannies to ensure the engine and clutch last through the warranty period. Jason starts talking about this at the 5:00 mark. Just a few highlights as this is the stuff that early reviewers didn't disclose.
  • Says it's not built like a BMW or Porsche to withstand heavy beating on a track.
  • Says it kills power mid-slide if you hit the limiter, resulting in an unexpected directional change and/or looping the car due to the short
    wheelbase.
  • ECU will not allow a brake stand style burnout.
  • ECU pulls power when trying to shift quickly (without flat-foot shift mode turned on) in an attempt to save the clutch.
  • Hitting the limiter cuts power significantly as opposed to modern ECU's that lets you bounce off of it.
  • ECU won't allow the engine to rev up quickly in neutral when stopped.
Some of this is not ideal but you get what you pay for as this is why it's cheaper than the Supra.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand Nissan drops the ball
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      05-24-2022, 11:49 AM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
There's a reason BMW made the B58 block closed deck and it's for reliability. Comparing open deck to closed deck is akin to comparing forged rods to cast. The cast rods can be reliable but the ultimate durability limits are far lower than forged. Same with the blocks. Close deck is going to be able to handle more power, more reliably. It's not even debatable.
Not true at all. The reason the B58 is closed deck was solely for cost cutting reasons. The B58 block is shared with the diesel motor variants. It had nothing to do with reliability or planning for more power. Arguably, closed deck blocks are more problematic when it comes to cooling, but BMW addressed that with liquid/air intercooling and a larger mechanical water pump and a separate water pump for the turbo. Lots more heat exchangers and pumps are required to keep the B58 cool.

Inline 6 motors are inherently robust. The N54 and N55 motors were open deck and could handle massively higher power levels than stock. Rarely are there issues with those blocks. The biggest issue with the short block in those cars is rod bearings, but B58 spin those as well. B58s also don't have iron cylinder liners, rather they have plasma coating in place of a liner. The issue there is that the coating can degrade with excessive fueling/leaking injector/heavy knock and the B58 block then becomes toast. Many B58s have died an early death due to plasma coating failure.
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      05-24-2022, 01:05 PM   #582
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Not true at all. The reason the B58 is closed deck was solely for cost cutting reasons. The B58 block is shared with the diesel motor variants. It had nothing to do with reliability or planning for more power. Arguably, closed deck blocks are more problematic when it comes to cooling, but BMW addressed that with liquid/air intercooling and a larger mechanical water pump and a separate water pump for the turbo. Lots more heat exchangers and pumps are required to keep the B58 cool.

Inline 6 motors are inherently robust. The N54 and N55 motors were open deck and could handle massively higher power levels than stock. Rarely are there issues with those blocks. The biggest issue with the short block in those cars is rod bearings, but B58 spin those as well. B58s also don't have iron cylinder liners, rather they have plasma coating in place of a liner. The issue there is that the coating can degrade with excessive fueling/leaking injector/heavy knock and the B58 block then becomes toast. Many B58s have died an early death due to plasma coating failure.
LOL are you trying to say the S55 was closed deck for cost cutting reasons or the S58? The N55 was limited to 365 HP in its max form despite getting a few upgraded internals for the M2 because open deck. The B58 has eclipsed that because of close deck. You aren't doing a good job here is you are actually trying to spin that closed deck is a cost cutting move.
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      05-24-2022, 01:48 PM   #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
Car n Driver just estimated the new 2023 BMW M2 to start around $60k.
Will be interested to see the actual HP numbers BMW release, but rumors are for the base to have 450 and over 500 easily for the Comp.
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      05-24-2022, 01:58 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by HerkHealer View Post
Car n Driver just estimated the new 2023 BMW M2 to start around $60k.
Will be interested to see the actual HP numbers BMW release, but rumors are for the base to have 450 and over 500 easily for the Comp.
G87 will launch in base only with 455hp. Comp will follow, year+ wait over base launch(could even be LCI only).

Base could tick just under $60k. The comp will definitely start over $60k. MSRP's just keep climbing due to inflation.

G87 M2 is a completely different class of vehicle, we talking $20k+ msrp difference over new Z.

Last edited by M3WC; 05-24-2022 at 02:05 PM..
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      05-24-2022, 02:03 PM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post

Looks like Nissan neutered the engine a bit with ECU nannies to ensure the engine and clutch last through the warranty period. Jason starts talking about this at the 5:00 mark. Just a few highlights as this is the stuff that early reviewers didn't disclose.
  • Says it's not built like a BMW or Porsche to withstand heavy beating on a track.
  • Says it kills power mid-slide if you hit the limiter, resulting in an unexpected directional change and/or looping the car due to the short
    wheelbase.
  • ECU will not allow a brake stand style burnout.
  • ECU pulls power when trying to shift quickly (without flat-foot shift mode turned on) in an attempt to save the clutch.
  • Hitting the limiter cuts power significantly as opposed to modern ECU's that lets you bounce off of it.
  • ECU won't allow the engine to rev up quickly in neutral when stopped.
Some of this is not ideal but you get what you pay for as this is why it's cheaper than the Supra.

You seem to have missed his note about being extremely hard on the Z and it never overheating. What it can handle on the track waits to be seen.

The issues noted mostly sound like the typical conservative Japanese safeguards/nannies. I imagine tuners will figure out how to fix those issues as these will be drift machines for many.

As late model BMW 6MT owner (M235), I can attest to the fact that BMW is far from perfect and has gone to great lengths to deaden the manual driving experience and save the 6MT from damage.

For example, BMW has using clutch delay valves in their 6MTs for well over a decade now to reduce driveline shock on hard shifts. The delay valve results in very inconsistent feel and many of us have replaced the stock slave cylinder with an E series slave that has no delay valve.

Also, many M2 6MT owners report severe power delays on hard 1-2 and 2-3 shifts even with all nannies off and on stock and modified cars. I've felt this with my M235 on occasion, but only with certain tunes.

Lastly, only M cars are really designed for hard track use, more specifically, they have upgraded oiling systems and baffled oil pans to handle sustained high G loads as well as upgraded cooling systems. You definitely would not want to take you're non-M BMW on a track with sticky tires without addressing the oiling system or else you run the risk of a spun rod bearing.

I also watched a 2010 911S at an HPDE event last week blow it's motor (likely a head gasket).

No car is perfect.
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      05-24-2022, 02:10 PM   #586
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G87 M2 is a completely different class of vehicle, we talking $20k+ msrp difference over new Z.
I completely agree. Vastly different, but the top of the line Z will be very close price wise to the base M2, which would still destroy it in every way.
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      05-24-2022, 02:14 PM   #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
You seem to have missed his note about being extremely hard on the Z and it never overheating. What it can handle on the track waits to be seen.

The issues noted mostly sound like the typical conservative Japanese safeguards/nannies. I imagine tuners will figure out how to fix those issues as these will be drift machines for many.

As late model BMW 6MT owner (M235), I can attest to the fact that BMW is far from perfect and has gone to great lengths to deaden the manual driving experience and save the 6MT from damage.

For example, BMW has using clutch delay valves in their 6MTs for well over a decade now to reduce driveline shock on hard shifts. The delay valve results in very inconsistent feel and many of us have replaced the stock slave cylinder with an E series slave that has no delay valve.

Also, many M2 6MT owners report severe power delays on hard 1-2 and 2-3 shifts even with all nannies off and on stock and modified cars. I've felt this with my M235 on occasion, but only with certain tunes.

Lastly, only M cars are really designed for hard track use, more specifically, they have upgraded oiling systems and baffled oil pans to handle sustained high G loads as well as upgraded cooling systems. You definitely would not want to take you're non-M BMW on a track with sticky tires without addressing the oiling system or else you run the risk of a spun rod bearing.

I also watched a 2010 911S at an HPDE event last week blow it's motor (likely a head gasket).

No car is perfect.
Yes he literally starts off the conversation saying he beat the living crap out of the Z and had no heat issues in 4 days. The ecu nanny stuff will get sorted by aftermarket.

Supra also has these ecu nannies issues. Jack Ding has been pushing the A90 Supra platform more than most. Early on he dealt with heat issues. Traction control issues, cutting power. TC would not stay off for more than one lap. The transmissions likes to pop out of manual mode constantly. It has been a battle tuning the A90 for heavy track use. It is quick, but like most vehicles it needs mods for heavy track use.

Last edited by M3WC; 05-24-2022 at 02:21 PM..
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      05-24-2022, 02:18 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by HerkHealer View Post
I completely agree. Vastly different, but the top of the line Z will be very close price wise to the base M2, which would still destroy it in every way.
$10k+ more, that is 20% the price of Perf trim Z. Not chump change. That is assuming a base G87 is $60k.
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      05-24-2022, 02:23 PM   #589
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[*]ECU pulls power when trying to shift quickly (without flat-foot shift mode turned on) in an attempt to save the clutch.
I really don't understand the obsession with flat-foot shift. You aren't really gaining much time in a drag race and you're doing so at the expense of the synchros, transmission, and clutch.

But I guess if people want to tear up their street cars pretending to be a race car driver, good for them.
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      05-24-2022, 02:25 PM   #590
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I watched the video last night where it got spanked by a supra and a mach1 mustang in the quarter. They blamed the Bridgestone vs. Michelin tires. I believe the times were 12.2 to 12.5 and the manual at 12.8.
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      05-24-2022, 02:34 PM   #591
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$10k+ more, that is 20% the price of Perf trim Z. Not chump change. That is assuming a base G87 is $60k.
The top line Z is $53k, but even the performance being only $10k away from the base M2 is well worth the extra money for what you're getting in the M2 versus the Z. That's all i'm saying. The M2 is/will be on another level in comparison.
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      05-24-2022, 02:35 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by HerkHealer View Post
The top line Z is $53k, but even the performance being only $10k away from the base M2 is well worth the extra money for what you're getting in the M2 versus the Z. That's all i'm saying. The M2 is/will be on another level in comparison.
The top Z is a appearance package that will sell at very low numbers at initial launch. It is a Perf trim with bronze wheels and special yellow paint. By the time the G87 arrives the Proto will not exist.

A Nismo version will be more of a comparison to a G87 M2. Again the base Z is $39.9k, $20k+ less than a G87 M2. These cars aren't even remotely in the same price category.

The better question is why spend $50k on a Per trim Z, when the rwd M240 will start at $46.5k?

Last edited by M3WC; 05-24-2022 at 02:48 PM..
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      05-24-2022, 02:51 PM   #593
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LOL are you trying to say the S55 was closed deck for cost cutting reasons or the S58? The N55 was limited to 365 HP in its max form despite getting a few upgraded internals for the M2 because open deck. The B58 has eclipsed that because of close deck. You aren't doing a good job here is you are actually trying to spin that closed deck is a cost cutting move.
The B58 is modular motor and it's block also used in the B57 diesel motor. It was cost saving measure hence its "modular" design. All B series motors share their blocks between their gasoline and diesel variants. The design nothing to do with performance, longevity, etc. in the gasoline motors. It was all about saving money. There's plenty of information out there supporting this.

The B58 isn't an S58 (or S55). If it was, BMW would have used the B58 block and head for the S58. They didn't.

BMW didn't push the N55 in the OG M2 past "365hp" (it really made around 400hp/420tq) because they have long term reliability requirements and they knew some would be road raced. The biggest issue was intercooling. It ran the same IC as every other F series N55 car. An upgraded IC and mild tune is all that's really needed to reliably get another 40-50whp and 50-70wtq for the track. You can easily push more with fueling upgrades and way more with relatively cheap turbo swap.

N54s and N55s have shown that they can handle massively more power than stock and closely rivaling that of the B58. The N54s and N55s just require additional fueling and turbo(s). Their open deck blocks aren't a problem when it comes to stuff breaking. Rods and pistons almost always give up before the block does in the N54 and N55.

The N54, N55, B58, and S55 all have their Achilles heals, especially once you start adding 25%+ more power than stock. Everyone is so focused on the big parts, but the reality is it's usually a little part that can't handle the additional power over the long term is what ultimately takes these motors out.
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      05-24-2022, 02:57 PM   #594
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.... but like most vehicles it needs mods for heavy track use.
^This. If you want to really "track" a street car, expect to pay a pretty penny to make it reliably handle 10+ back to back laps without shredding a set of tires, cooking the brakes, overheating, going into power reduction, etc.
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