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      12-01-2019, 08:36 AM   #2531
///M4ster Yoda
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So how do you define lead exactly? The i3 is among the top selling EVs in Europe, and has been for years. As I am sure you know, it is after all a european brand. The i3 has also been applauded for being an extremely advanced and well made car, to the point of documentaries being made.

The world is more than the US. I'm sure Chevrolet Bolt is a nice car, but I've never seen a Chevrolet Bolt in my life. BMW i3's on the other hand, I can hardly throw a rock without hitting one.

EDIT: Also can't see how you can say they're a decade behind everyone else. Tesla is obviously ahead of everyone else. BMW simply didn't focus on EVs yet because the market isn't big enough to justify it. There's a reason why both BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche haven't been attacking this market until now, and it's not because they don't know how to make cars or don't have the technology - it's because they've chosen not to.

Tesla has helped move the market towards EV faster, and whether we like it or not it's an impressive feat. But there's no reason to doubt that the coming EVs from the big German automakers will be equally impressive (look at the Taycan).
My comment was based on this quote from MFNATK: "I love BMW, but they really lost their grip during Harald Kruger's time at the helm. Now that BMW has squandered their lead in electrification after a great start with the i8 and i3, which gave Tesla enough time has step in with their 3 series killer, the Model 3. I'm not sure how BMW will compete in this space as more and more loyal BMW owners move on. There are so many BMW converts over on the Tesla Motors forum. Even some familiar faces from bimmerpost."

Development time table of modern electric cars production release including hybrids:
1996 GM EV1
1997 Toyota Prius
1999 Honda Insight
2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Nissan Leaf
2012 Tesla Model S
2014 BMW i3
2015 BMW i8
2016 Chevrolet Bolt
2017 Tesla Model 3

The i3 had an 81 mile EV range, just 8 miles more than the half-as-expensive and 4-year old Nissian Leaf. The Bolt released 31 months later had a range of 238 miles. The i8 is, well no one really knows what it is, other than expensive, sort of fast coupe with no luggage space. I call the i3 a dud because of all the hype BMW spewed about its "light weight" (carbon fiber) body on (aluminum) frame architecture, which is expensive to manufacture, didn't result in a very high range performance per vehicle weight ratio; the Chevy Bolt released just 31 months later, morphs the i3 range to weight ratio. Compare the i3 hybrid to the Volt and it's comical. For all of BMW's vaulted engineering prowess; neither the i8 nor i3 are engineering marvels as BMW hyped them to be.

While Toyota, Honda, and GM were selling hybrids; albeit the GM EV1 limited to leases in So. Cal and the Toyota based on 1970's hybrid technology first developed by the American auto parts supplier TRW, BMW was paying CAFE violation fines:
The i8 is a lawnmower in a supercar body

I laugh when I see Scandinavians go on and on about how electric cars are everywhere and are "taking" over the world. The population of Norway is 5 million people and they are being "forced" to use EVs by their governments. I live outside NY city where the population is 5 times that. I see 1 Tesla for every 100 ICE cars. Not a good ratio IMO.
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      12-01-2019, 09:12 AM   #2532
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The i8 is a lawnmower in a supercar body

I laugh when I see Scandinavians go on and on about how electric cars are everywhere and are "taking" over the world. The population of Norway is 5 million people and they are being "forced" to use EVs by their governments. I live outside NY city where the population is 5 times that. I see 1 Tesla for every 100 ICE cars. Not a good ratio IMO.
According to Wiki, "The i3 ranked third among all-electric (read as BEV) cars sold worldwide from 2014 to 2016. Global sales since inception totaled more than 133,000 units through the end of 2018. The U.S. is its best-selling market with over 37,000 units sold through 2018." So based on that information the rest of the entire world (a big place) bought 96,000 i3 over 4 years of production.

So far in 2019, add another 3,700 to the US total (again, the i3's largest market) and total US sales are 40,858 (GoodCarBadCar data). Not impressive. Not a disrupter. An over-priced engineering exercise on BMWs part. I get it, super-green construction with Eucalyptus wood, hemp door panels, and recycled plastic bottle foam. Neat and all, but expensive and low range; people didn't buy it.
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      12-01-2019, 09:18 AM   #2533
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The i8 is a lawnmower in a supercar body

I laugh when I see Scandinavians go on and on about how electric cars are everywhere and are "taking" over the world. The population of Norway is 5 million people and they are being "forced" to use EVs by their governments. I live outside NY city where the population is 5 times that. I see 1 Tesla for every 100 ICE cars. Not a good ratio IMO.
According to Wiki, "The i3 ranked third among all-electric (read as BEV) cars sold worldwide from 2014 to 2016. Global sales since inception totaled more than 133,000 units through the end of 2018. The U.S. is its best-selling market with over 37,000 units sold through 2018. So based on that information the rest of the entire world (a big place) bought 96,000 i3 over 4 years of production.

So far in 2019, add another 3,700 to the US total (again, the i3's largest market) and total US sales are 40,858 (GoodCarBadCar data). Not impressive. Not a disrupter. An over-priced engineering exercise on BMWs part. I get it, super-green construction with Eucalyptus wood, hemp door panels, and recycled plastic bottle foam. Neat and all, but expensive and low range; people didn't buy it.
Yup. Iv'e seen even less i3s. Maybe 15 since the cars inception and like I said earlier I live outside metro NY in a VERY populated area.
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      12-01-2019, 09:19 AM   #2534
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The EV1 brings back memories. I was working for a company that did environmental studies and projects with the EPA and various utilities. The lead engineer had a few electric vehicle experiments going at the time. The company purchased a single family home in a residential neighborhood to do in home experiments. The lead engineer wanted to see if hydrogen emissions from charging of the batteries used at that time would pose a danger in a residential home setting. Part of my job was to drive around in these electric vehicles to drain down the batteries. We would then pull them into the garage and start the charge cycle. The garage was set up with sensors to measure the level of hydrogen being emitted.

The lead engineer got a hold of someone at GM or vice versa...don't know how the contact was established. GM sent one of the EV1s down to the test house. The semi that pulled up was a sight to be seen as it had a full on trailer attached. They only delivered the car at dusk because they didn't want anyone to be able to take good pictures of the car. When this was happening, the EV1 wasn't released to market yet. As soon as the EV1 was unloaded, the GM employees immediately put the car into the test house's garage and the garage door was shut.

I got to touch and get up close to the car. But the lead engineer did all the actual operation of the car. The charging system was interesting. There was a specific charging station which had to be wired into the house's electrical system. The charging connector was a paddle that was inserted into a slot at the front of the car.

The lead engineer was given permission to take a few pictures of the car which I still have somewhere in my hoarding stash.
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      12-01-2019, 10:09 AM   #2535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The i8 is a lawnmower in a supercar body

I laugh when I see Scandinavians go on and on about how electric cars are everywhere and are "taking" over the world. The population of Norway is 5 million people and they are being "forced" to use EVs by their governments. I live outside NY city where the population is 5 times that. I see 1 Tesla for every 100 ICE cars. Not a good ratio IMO.
So this is basically my point, this is why BMW hasn't bothered. It's not because they tried and failed.

EDIT: Technically we're not forced to use EVs, we're being incentivized. They (including hybrids) have less taxes. The tax on ICE cars didn't go up, it's always been high.
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      12-01-2019, 10:20 AM   #2536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The i8 is a lawnmower in a supercar body

I laugh when I see Scandinavians go on and on about how electric cars are everywhere and are "taking" over the world. The population of Norway is 5 million people and they are being "forced" to use EVs by their governments. I live outside NY city where the population is 5 times that. I see 1 Tesla for every 100 ICE cars. Not a good ratio IMO.
According to Wiki, "The i3 ranked third among all-electric (read as BEV) cars sold worldwide from 2014 to 2016. Global sales since inception totaled more than 133,000 units through the end of 2018. The U.S. is its best-selling market with over 37,000 units sold through 2018. So based on that information the rest of the entire world (a big place) bought 96,000 i3 over 4 years of production.

So far in 2019, add another 3,700 to the US total (again, the i3's largest market) and total US sales are 40,858 (GoodCarBadCar data). Not impressive. Not a disrupter. An over-priced engineering exercise on BMWs part. I get it, super-green construction with Eucalyptus wood, hemp door panels, and recycled plastic bottle foam. Neat and all, but expensive and low range; people didn't buy it.
Yup. Iv'e seen even less i3s. Maybe 15 since the cars inception and like I said earlier I live outside metro NY in a VERY populated area.
There are a lot running around here in SoCal.
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      12-01-2019, 10:46 AM   #2537
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The i8 is a lawnmower in a supercar body

I laugh when I see Scandinavians go on and on about how electric cars are everywhere and are "taking" over the world. The population of Norway is 5 million people and they are being "forced" to use EVs by their governments. I live outside NY city where the population is 5 times that. I see 1 Tesla for every 100 ICE cars. Not a good ratio IMO.
According to Wiki, "The i3 ranked third among all-electric (read as BEV) cars sold worldwide from 2014 to 2016. Global sales since inception totaled more than 133,000 units through the end of 2018. The U.S. is its best-selling market with over 37,000 units sold through 2018. So based on that information the rest of the entire world (a big place) bought 96,000 i3 over 4 years of production.

So far in 2019, add another 3,700 to the US total (again, the i3's largest market) and total US sales are 40,858 (GoodCarBadCar data). Not impressive. Not a disrupter. An over-priced engineering exercise on BMWs part. I get it, super-green construction with Eucalyptus wood, hemp door panels, and recycled plastic bottle foam. Neat and all, but expensive and low range; people didn't buy it.
Yup. Iv'e seen even less i3s. Maybe 15 since the cars inception and like I said earlier I live outside metro NY in a VERY populated area.
There are a lot running around here in SoCal.
Of course. I'm sure there are a ton of Teslas also. The rest of the US not so much. California has a TON of wanna be tree huggers so that's a given.
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      12-01-2019, 11:16 AM   #2538
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Yup. Iv'e seen even less i3s. Maybe 15 since the cars inception and like I said earlier I live outside metro NY in a VERY populated area.
15 cars in 6 years? That's unbelievably different than the experience in any west coast metropolis.
All 5 people I've known that have had an i3 (3 car people, 2 normal types) could not stop raving about them. 4 still have them, 1 was an employee lease of a technician friend.

And Nokian makes a Hakkapeliitta that fits
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      12-01-2019, 11:17 AM   #2539
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California has a TON of wanna be tree huggers so that's a given.
California has an unbelievable collection of vintage cars driving around. Tons of car people.
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      12-01-2019, 11:27 AM   #2540
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California has a TON of wanna be tree huggers so that's a given.
California has an unbelievable collection of vintage cars driving around. Tons of car people.
California has a ton of SHIT and not all of it is good

My point was/is that outside of Europe where the idiotic politicians are forcing the population to switch to EVs and the land of fruits and nuts there isn't a huge portion of the population "switching" over to straight EVs. It's not like I live in the middle of nowhere. I'm 50 miles outside of NYC.
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      12-01-2019, 05:40 PM   #2541
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While Toyota, Honda, and GM were selling hybrids; albeit the GM EV1 limited to leases in So. Cal and the Toyota based on 1970's hybrid technology first developed by the American auto parts supplier TRW, BMW was paying CAFE violation fines:
The i3 did very badly in Canada. Its tyre print was small, that custom, expensive tyres it uses. Given its size, it was overpriced. I heard it had a hard time handling highway speeds in -40C with any wind-gusts above 30km/hr- the height to width ratio (or aspect) and narrow tyres making it prone to loss of control. Now, it was not as bad as lighter tiny cars- but BMW built such a narrow custom tyre option, with very few choices on the market. Three seasons, however, people did praise it.

Personally I found its exterior looks wanting.
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      12-01-2019, 05:44 PM   #2542
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California has a ton of SHIT and not all of it is good

My point was/is that outside of Europe where the idiotic politicians are forcing the population to switch to EVs and the land of fruits and nuts there isn't a huge portion of the population "switching" over to straight EVs. It's not like I live in the middle of nowhere. I'm 50 miles outside of NYC.
I spent a 8 months in europe in the last years, and even in Strasbourg, Cologne, their distances are puny. Winters- well in Strasbourg they could not recall the last time they had an icy winter- 1980s to be precise. Everything is concentrated vertically, they have a state of the art transportation system. Cologne has 12 trains, 200 kms of line, and 250 or so stations. 1 million people. Ottawa has 2 trains (the new one breaking down daily), 30 kms and 30 stations.

We are a horizontally spread car culture that has not invested in infrastructure. In europe the GPS phone told me where to get onboard, CC Apple pay tap, and am across town in 30 min. Impossible in Montreal, Ottawa, LA. Maybe a bit NYC.
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      12-02-2019, 11:58 AM   #2543
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Same in Asia and more so, US is just a lot more driving centric
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      12-02-2019, 03:36 PM   #2544
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15 cars in 6 years? That's unbelievably different than the experience in any west coast metropolis.
All 5 people I've known that have had an i3 (3 car people, 2 normal types) could not stop raving about them. 4 still have them, 1 was an employee lease of a technician friend.

And Nokian makes a Hakkapeliitta that fits
considering california buys more electric cars than nearly all the other states combined, its not surprising you see a bunch over on the west coast.
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      12-02-2019, 06:13 PM   #2545
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Yup. Iv'e seen even less i3s. Maybe 15 since the cars inception and like I said earlier I live outside metro NY in a VERY populated area.
15 cars in 6 years? That's unbelievably different than the experience in any west coast metropolis.
All 5 people I've known that have had an i3 (3 car people, 2 normal types) could not stop raving about them. 4 still have them, 1 was an employee lease of a technician friend.

And Nokian makes a Hakkapeliitta that fits
Every person that I know who owns an i3 loves it, and a few are on their second i3 purchases. Granted, the i3 isn't their only car, but it is their only EV.
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      12-02-2019, 06:25 PM   #2546
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Every person that I know who owns an i3 loves it, and a few are on their second i3 purchases. Granted, the i3 isn't their only car, but it is their only EV.
I'm on my 3rd i3 and I have 4 cars. This is my only EV. It's a light, RWD, torquey car and arguably more BMW like than a lot of modern BMW's.
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      12-02-2019, 07:14 PM   #2547
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considering california buys more electric cars than nearly all the other states combined, its not surprising you see a bunch over on the west coast.
Just surprised the difference from my perspective where they are quite common and seem like they would fulfill a unique niche for major metropolitan areas especially in the salt belt.
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      12-03-2019, 09:49 AM   #2548
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Just surprised the difference from my perspective where they are quite common and seem like they would fulfill a unique niche for major metropolitan areas especially in the salt belt.
cold weather and EV dont usually mix well. I dont think ive ever seen an i3 here in colorado, and i maybe see 1-2 teslas a week.
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      12-03-2019, 10:48 AM   #2549
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I am curious, do you guys think tesla takes sales away from people looking at the higher end quicker sedans? For example the top model 7 series or top model s class.

I understand you don't get the luxury, but if you are moving up to the v12 7 series for the quicker 0-60, would it not disappoint you to know the teslas are quicker?

I care much more about luxury than speed, but I do wonder what the thought process would be for the people that pay more for the on paper 0-60 times.
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      12-03-2019, 11:07 AM   #2550
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I am curious, do you guys think tesla takes sales away from people looking at the higher end quicker sedans? For example the top model 7 series or top model s class.

I understand you don't get the luxury, but if you are moving up to the v12 7 series for the quicker 0-60, would it not disappoint you to know the teslas are quicker?

I care much more about luxury than speed, but I do wonder what the thought process would be for the people that pay more for the on paper 0-60 times.
no one that i know that has bought a tesla, bought it for its speed. Now, they may have gotten the higher model because of the speed, but they were already going to buy a tesla.
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no one that i know that has bought a tesla, bought it for its speed. Now, they may have gotten the higher model because of the speed, but they were already going to buy a tesla.
That is true. I did not intend to buy a Tesla for its speed or quickness. I bought it b/c no other car manufacturer is selling an EV with 300 miles of range, AWD, and technology that is overflowing out the ying yang that any tech junkie would love to have at their fingertips. Autopilot is great too. Can't wait for the day it can just drive itself.

Also, due to the consistent OTA updates that keep improving the way the car operates and adds cool features like Netflix, Spotify, video games, and improvements to Autopilot, it makes you feel that the car is somewhat future proofed. In contrast, our 2017 i3 had iDrive 4.0 which couldn't recognize natural speech and had a somewhat clunky menu. The self parking would curb the wheels so that was garbage. The auto cruise control with distance control and auto stop and start would sometimes try to rear end cars that it scared the living shit out of my wife that she refused to use it at all.

Oh did I mention our Model 3 Stealth Performance is able to do 0-60 in 3 seconds flat after the latest software update? Yeah, Tesla shaved 0.2 sec off with a software update. The instant torque and power of the AWD just makes lane changes a breeze. Though not the main feature of the car, it sure is a nice to have when I feel the need for speed. All in a car that pretty much blends in (in contrast to the i3 that stands out for the wrong reasons) and doesn't look the part of a 3 second car, that also doesn't cost me much in maintenance or operating cost. Seems like a lot of win/win/wins here.

I say all this as someone who felt a profound sadness as I turned in my 2nd and probably last i3 lease 3 months early yesterday. The i3 was a good car. Despite it being an EV, it drove exactly like how any good BMW should drive, which is a great thing. It's a shame BMW did not offer it with enough range to match Tesla or technology that even came close to Autopilot.

If it wasn't for the highly subsidized leases BMW was offering on them, I don't think I would have ever felt the car was worth its 55k MSRP price tag to even consider buying/leasing. And its resale value is horrendous! My lease buyout was 38k while the Blue Book trade in value was 24k. Who the hell is crazy enough to buy one of these things new?

Its a real shame b/c the Model 3 I just picked up does everything better except drive like a BMW and have the build quality and fit and finish of a BMW, but at least had an MSRP lower than a fully loaded i3 REx. What a shame BMW. You could have done better and you could have kept a lot more of us from defecting. I didn't want to buy a Tesla initially, but you gave me no choice because you refused to build a car that could potentially cannibalize your 3 series ICE sales, instead you let Tesla do that for you.
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2005 M3 Vert - Imola Red - SMG2, CSL DME/SMG tune, BlueBus, 3M CS tint, Custom sub
2020 Tesla Model 3 Stealth Performance
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