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      05-08-2019, 08:44 PM   #45
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      05-09-2019, 12:57 AM   #46
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One of the things many people don't understand is how crazy progressive the U.S. income tax system is. The top 5% of earners pay almost 60% of the taxes, and the top 10% pay almost 70%. In contrast, the bottom 50% of earners pay only 3% of federal taxes. Think about that. The bottom 50% pay only 3% of the federal taxes. https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-p...s-income-taxes

People I know on the left love to talk about Sweden as if it is a socialist utopia. But Sweden has a much flatter tax structure. Everybody has skin in the game. Not only are the rates high--but almost everybody pays it, unlike in the U.S. Moreover, the U.S. is more socialist than Sweden in many ways.
At least the Swedes understand how the economics work.
In the U.S. our politicians are such race-baiting, class-warfare, cynical, economically illiterate assholes that we can't even have a rational discussion.
https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandi...ment-spending/

So it offends me when I see people slinging mud at Republicans who favor tax relief by falsely characterizing them as heartless bastards who covet their money above all else and don't want to give even "one dollar" to support a social safety net. What complete and total BS. The fact is that top 5% Republicans support the social safety net more than 95% of the other people, and the 95% are usually the ones who cast these aspersions. The other fact is that the U.S. has a robust safety net that is widely abused, mismanaged and wasted.

So yeah, I'll be voting Republican, and I'm not buying the BS guilt trip you're selling.
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      05-09-2019, 01:33 AM   #47
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Also, I've had about enough of the narrative that people have a "right" to the labor and assets of others. No, you don't. Nobody has a right to my labor absent my consent in a voluntary economic exchange. So health care, i.e., the delivery of goods and services by one person to another is not, and never will be a "right." This principle applies to many other current issues as well, e.g., the so-called "right" to a living wage or universal income. Unless you believe in slavery, just stop it; because it is demonstrably BS.

And the notion that communist "jobs" are somehow productive, economically beneficial, or compassionate is ridiculous. Read some Hayek. Politicians specialize in the misallocation of resources; not economic efficiency that generates true prosperity for all. The Keynesian notion that political mandates and interventions to create "bottom-up" consumer demand generates prosperity or human well being is long since debunked. Raking leaves in the forest doesn't help anybody, including the person doing the raking. The best way to create prosperity is to atomize economic decision making, let the "invisible hand" and price signals operate in the market, and foster a level playing field through the equal enforcement of law free of political bias. I’m happy to debate the merits of this, but I categorically reject the notion that I am morally inferior to a leftist for sincerely advancing the argument and voting accordingly.

The whole notion that Republicans are evil and heartless, and Democrats are good and benevolent is so facially wrong and disingenuous. Most people, Republicans and Democrats alike, want society to prosper and have compassion for the less fortunate. They fundamentally disagree as to how to best accomplish these goals, but to suggest that one holds the moral high ground over the other by virtue of their philosophical disagreement on the methods is the worst kind of politics. And buying into it is largely what has created the toxic political atmosphere in which we currently live. I hate it.
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      05-09-2019, 04:58 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Also, I've had about enough of the narrative that people have a "right" to the labor and assets of others. No, you don't. Nobody has a right to my labor absent my consent in a voluntary economic exchange. So health care, i.e., the delivery of goods and services by one person to another is not, and never will be a "right." This principle applies to many other current issues as well, e.g., the so-called "right" to a living wage or universal income. Unless you believe in slavery, just stop it; because it is demonstrably BS.

And the notion that communist "jobs" are somehow productive, economically beneficial, or compassionate is ridiculous. Read some Hayek. Politicians specialize in the misallocation of resources; not economic efficiency that generates true prosperity for all. The Keynesian notion that political mandates and interventions to create "bottom-up" consumer demand generates prosperity or human well being is long since debunked. Raking leaves in the forest doesn't help anybody, including the person doing the raking. The best way to create prosperity is to atomize economic decision making, let the "invisible hand" and price signals operate in the market, and foster a level playing field through the equal enforcement of law free of political bias. Im happy to debate the merits of this, but I categorically reject the notion that I am morally inferior to a leftist for sincerely advancing the argument and voting accordingly.

The whole notion that Republicans are evil and heartless, and Democrats are good and benevolent is so facially wrong and disingenuous. Most people, Republicans and Democrats alike, want society to prosper and have compassion for the less fortunate. They fundamentally disagree as to how to best accomplish these goals, but to suggest that one holds the moral high ground over the other by virtue of their philosophical disagreement on the methods is the worst kind of politics. And buying into it is largely what has created the toxic political atmosphere in which we currently live. I hate it.
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      05-09-2019, 08:05 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
The whole notion that Republicans are evil and heartless, and Democrats are good and benevolent is so facially wrong and disingenuous. Most people, Republicans and Democrats alike, want society to prosper and have compassion for the less fortunate. They fundamentally disagree as to how to best accomplish these goals, but to suggest that one holds the moral high ground over the other by virtue of their philosophical disagreement on the methods is the worst kind of politics. And buying into it is largely what has created the toxic political atmosphere in which we currently live. I hate it.
Bravo! Well said! Thank you.

We all could use a moment to step back and remind ourselves that we ultimately want the same things for this country. As you said, the disagreement is in how to accomplish them. But the goals are universally shared by 99% of us. So instead of focusing on the "how", we should start with the common goal and work back from there. I'll bet there's a lot more common ground that we think, but all this mud slinging and hatred has clouded everyone's vision.
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      05-09-2019, 08:15 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
One of the things many people don't understand is how crazy progressive the U.S. income tax system is. The top 5% of earners pay almost 60% of the taxes, and the top 10% pay almost 70%. In contrast, the bottom 50% of earners pay only 3% of federal taxes. Think about that. The bottom 50% pay only 3% of the federal taxes. https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-p...s-income-taxes ....
Well, sure, when you get hyper-concentrated levels of wealth at the top, what else would anyone reasonably expect?

It would be more valuable to compare tax rates, would it not?
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      05-09-2019, 08:34 AM   #51
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My biggest issue with being taxed out the ass (especially here in CT) is that all of the funds are so mismanaged that the programs they claim the money goes toward it never supports.

We have some of the highest fuel taxes in the country, yet the state wants to put in tolls because they have zero money to fix roads since the funds for that were abused somewhere else, just as one example. Both sides on all levels of government absolutely suck at managing money, and waste it all while asking for more. I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy, but common sense tells me you need taxes to fund road projects, school systems, assistance programs, etc. I think the average citizen just wants a say in where the money goes and how it is managed. Instead the politicians get richer while accomplishing nothing. Term limits would make a huge impact on this.
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      05-09-2019, 08:44 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Well, sure, when you get hyper-concentrated levels of wealth at the top, what else would anyone reasonably expect?

It would be more valuable to compare tax rates, would it not?
Indeed, you should come work in Canada for a few years.
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      05-09-2019, 08:49 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1534757

13 of 52 identified as "Liberal". 2 (at least) banned (Taskmaster and irishbimmer). Openwheel declined to vote.
Since you are wondering, my vote is NA Inline 6, and I am a fiscal conservative social liberal like most Americans.
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      05-09-2019, 12:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Well, sure, when you get hyper-concentrated levels of wealth at the top, what else would anyone reasonably expect?

It would be more valuable to compare tax rates, would it not?
Rates are only one part of the progressivity. The bigger issue by far is that a majority of people in the US pay little to no income taxes, even though they make enough to live comfortably. When a majority has no skin in the game, their only voting incentive is to vote themselves benefits from the public Fisk that will be paid for by others. It is a structural problem that is ultimately unsustainable and encourages poor governance. The politicians pander about free stuff, and then demonize the minority who pay for everything as selfish and uncaring. Not a good recipie for sound fiscal policy.
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      05-09-2019, 12:31 PM   #55
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Rates are only one part of the progressivity. The bigger issue by far is that a majority of people in the US pay little to no income taxes, even though they make enough to live comfortably. When a majority has no skin in the game, their only voting incentive is to vote themselves benefits from the public Fisk that will be paid for by others. It is a structural problem that is ultimately unsustainable and encourages poor governance. The politicians pander about free stuff, and then demonize the minority who pay for everything as selfish and uncaring. Not a good recipie for sound fiscal policy.
Rates/brackets are far more valuable than talking about who pays XX% of the total.

People with insanely high income levels will pay the bulk of the total of tax revenue - it's simple math.

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      05-09-2019, 12:31 PM   #56
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My biggest issue with being taxed out the ass (especially here in CT) is that all of the funds are so mismanaged that the programs they claim the money goes toward it never supports.

We have some of the highest fuel taxes in the country, yet the state wants to put in tolls because they have zero money to fix roads since the funds for that were abused somewhere else, just as one example. Both sides on all levels of government absolutely suck at managing money, and waste it all while asking for more. I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy, but common sense tells me you need taxes to fund road projects, school systems, assistance programs, etc. I think the average citizen just wants a say in where the money goes and how it is managed. Instead the politicians get richer while accomplishing nothing. Term limits would make a huge impact on this.
Most of the money goes to entitlements. Military and infrastructure spending is a drop in the bucket by comparison, but it gets crowded out by entitlements.
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      05-09-2019, 12:34 PM   #57
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Rates/brackets are far more valuable than talking about how pays XX% of the total.

People with insanely high income levels will pay the bulk of the total of tax revenue - it's simple math.
I disagree. The biggest problem is that too many people dont have skin in the game. Wed be much better off with a lower flat tax that everyone (or at least everyone above a reasonable poverty line) pays. It would be progressive only in he sense that the more you make, the more you pay, but everybody pays the same rate. Then all the voters would have an incentive to keep spending under control.
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      05-09-2019, 12:50 PM   #58
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Most of the money goes to entitlements. Military and infrastructure spending is a drop in the bucket by comparison, but it gets crowded out by entitlements.
It is pretty breath-taking just how much is spent on Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security.

As a bleeding heart liberal I see the value in the social safety net programs, but as a firm "man up and handle your business" sort of guy when it comes to work and personal finances, I cant help but wonder to what degree those safety nets aid many in making poor personal life decisions. Example: while I was early in my career socking away 15% of my income into my 401k and driving a beat up Tercel, many of my friends who were also recent college grads in their first "big" job were spending every penny they made, driving sweet new cars, and living beyond their means. Many still do to this day, 25 years later. But who cares, right? Social security will be there in the end to make up any retirement saving shortfall.
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      05-09-2019, 01:01 PM   #59
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It is pretty breath-taking just how much is spent on Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security.

As a bleeding heart liberal I see the value in the social safety net programs, but as a firm "man up and handle your business" sort of guy when it comes to work and personal finances, I cant help but wonder to what degree those safety nets aid many in making poor personal life decisions. Example: while I was early in my career socking away 15% of my income into my 401k and driving a beat up Tercel, many of my friends who were also recent college grads in their first "big" job were spending every penny they made, driving sweet new cars, and living beyond their means. Many still do to this day, 25 years later. But who cares, right? Social security will be there in the end to make up any retirement saving shortfall.
I have long believed that the fundamental problem with our medical system is third-party payer. It disconnects the consumer from the price. Pricing for medical goods and services is driven primarily by clever corporate maneuvering to Game the regs and the insurance company requirements, which is a whole other game in itself. While I think insurance is important to avoid catastrophic loss for serious medical conditions and injuries, I think we would be much better off with less governmental and insurance regulation that obscures price signals from the consumer, coupled with first party payer for everything other than catastrophic loss.

One thing is for sure: if it is perceived as “free,” people will overutilize it; and if it is managed by government, it will be grossly inefficient and politically corrupted. These are the things that lead to insane and irrational pricing.
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      05-09-2019, 01:13 PM   #60
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Most of the money goes to entitlements. Military and infrastructure spending is a drop in the bucket by comparison, but it gets crowded out by entitlements.
incorrect.
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      05-09-2019, 01:21 PM   #61
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incorrect.
https://www.nationalpriorities.org/b...-101/spending/
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      05-09-2019, 01:27 PM   #62
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I disagree. The biggest problem is that too many people dont have skin in the game. Wed be much better off with a lower flat tax that everyone (or at least everyone above a reasonable poverty line) pays. It would be progressive only in he sense that the more you make, the more you pay, but everybody pays the same rate. Then all the voters would have an incentive to keep spending under control.
Rates/bracket data would demonstrate who is paying little to no taxes as well.



A "flat tax" with a floor is still a progressive tax structure, it's just a much simpler one. It also wouldn't address your objection of some having no "skin in the game".
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      05-09-2019, 02:20 PM   #63
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Like I said. Incorrect. How's 600 billion a drop in the bucket?

Social security is social security buddy. Unless you are willing to donate your future benefits, you got nothing to complain about because the younger generation will be sending money your way the same we are doing it for the older generation.
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      05-09-2019, 03:04 PM   #64
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Rates/brackets are far more valuable than talking about how pays XX% of the total.

People with insanely high income levels will pay the bulk of the total of tax revenue - it's simple math.
You may as well be explaining Chaos Theory to your goldfish.

Every time someone tells me, Mr. Evil Rich Guy only paid 11.8% tax on his $4.6 million in income, it takes everything I have to not reach across the table and throttle them saying, "His 11.8% of $4.6 million is approaching $550k you dunce Mr. Evil pays more in taxes in 4 year than you'll probably make in your lifetime."

It's incredible. And not in a good way.
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      05-09-2019, 03:18 PM   #65
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You may as well be explaining Chaos Theory to your goldfish.

Every time someone tells me, Mr. Evil Rich Guy only paid 11.8% tax on his $4.6 million in income, it takes everything I have to not reach across the table and throttle them saying, "His 11.8% of $4.6 million is approaching $550k you dunce Mr. Evil pays more in taxes in 4 year than you'll probably make in your lifetime."

It's incredible. And not in a good way.

Yep.

The flip side however, is someone making $750K a year will be much less impacted by a 30% tax rate than someone making $50K a year would be impacted by a 20% tax rate.
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      05-09-2019, 03:39 PM   #66
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You may as well be explaining Chaos Theory to your goldfish.

Every time someone tells me, Mr. Evil Rich Guy only paid 11.8% tax on his $4.6 million in income, it takes everything I have to not reach across the table and throttle them saying, "His 11.8% of $4.6 million is approaching $550k you dunce Mr. Evil pays more in taxes in 4 year than you'll probably make in your lifetime."

It's incredible. And not in a good way.
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