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      05-01-2019, 09:46 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
Not for Profit is a term that comes from the Internal Revenue Code. Business profits are taxed, so not for profit actually means not for paying taxes. 501(c) of the tax code limits the kinds of businesses that can use this status, but using it does not make them a charity, or “good” in any sense of the word.

Being profitable and publicly traded provides liquidity, equity and financial foundation to operate, ensuring claims can be paid as they come due. NfP status makes it much harder to raise the equity and liquidity. There are mutual insurance companies (owned by their members, who are also policyholders), which you could choose (not sure if there are mutual health insurers or just life, property and other coverages).
Show me an health insurance company that actually diverts profits to provide better claims pay outs for their insureds?

I've already seen first hand how claims have been handled by an insurance company with a totally unqualified doctor used to review one of my claims. I also have had the experience of having a drug be denied coverage by my insurance company when my doctor said it was the customary drug used to treat my condition of H. Pylori. My GI doc was so upset he rounded up enough drug samples in his office to give to me free of charge to get me through the treatment.

If you spend any time on any of the cancer support forums, you'll see regular posts of people fighting their insurance companies to cover procedures and scans deemed necessary by their doctors. Speaking of which, I was also denied a specific cardiac MRI scan due to a confirmed dilation of the aortic root of my heart. My insurance company said the CT scan I had for my cancer follow up was enough and the MRI was not necessary.
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We might not be in an agreement on Trump, but I'll be the first penis chaser here to say I'll rather take it up in the ass than to argue with you on this.
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      05-01-2019, 09:49 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
My mom was stage 3 Ovarian and paid for it out of her pocket. She refused to wait on the insurance company to make the decisions and recouped all but $30K on a $300K+ bill. That said, I can fully understand while most can't do this or can't navigate the brobdingnagian healthcare system to get it done for them.

Cheers-mk
That really sucks. I've seen situations such as this with stage 4 CRC patients fighting their insurance companies over a procedure called HIPEC. There is a person who has gained so much personal experience fighting insurance companies over what should be covered, she is providing this service for other forum members.
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      05-02-2019, 04:58 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post

Medicare for All in a country of 330,000,000 people, 50% of whom are obese couch potatoes would be an absolute disaster and pathetically unaffordable. Care would be government run, rationed and provided by bitter, unhappy physicians or unqualified NPs and PAs.
I did not realize 50% of Americans were obese.

The food and drug industries have it made.

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      05-02-2019, 06:32 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Show me an health insurance company that actually diverts profits to provide better claims pay outs for their insureds?

I've already seen first hand how claims have been handled by an insurance company with a totally unqualified doctor used to review one of my claims. I also have had the experience of having a drug be denied coverage by my insurance company when my doctor said it was the customary drug used to treat my condition of H. Pylori. My GI doc was so upset he rounded up enough drug samples in his office to give to me free of charge to get me through the treatment.

If you spend any time on any of the cancer support forums, you'll see regular posts of people fighting their insurance companies to cover procedures and scans deemed necessary by their doctors. Speaking of which, I was also denied a specific cardiac MRI scan due to a confirmed dilation of the aortic root of my heart. My insurance company said the CT scan I had for my cancer follow up was enough and the MRI was not necessary.
I don’t disagree with you at all on this; although our claims experience has been very good I still have to fight now and then. As there become fewer and fewer insurance companies they are dictating more and more what they will cover and pay; this will become really bad in a single insurance company scheme, and likely unbearable if it is the federal government.

My point was simply that “not for profit” status doesn’t change any of this.
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      05-02-2019, 06:50 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by cmyE93M3 View Post
I live in Canada but work in the U.S. as a CEO of a company, I can tell you seeing both sides of the equation that flat out, a government oriented system like that of Canada, Sweden, Norway, where ever, will simply not work in the U.S. I cannot be convinced otherwise. I see the group benefit costs to the company I run and every single year it increases by minimum 8% to 12%. We play with the deductibles, decrease some nice to have coverages and ensure a good, solid, meat and potatoes health care for the employee's while still accepting as much premium as we can spare and this is frankly not ideal, but the best course to take in the States.
This is so true. For years we paid for our employees medical coverage, but the costs got out of hand so we had no choice but to pass on the costs. That was tough, I thought we were going to have mutiny. No one appreciated all the years we did pay, or that fact that most other companies did not pay for their employees. We do contribute so the employee doesn't pay 100%. The yearly increases are staggering. We now offer a few different plans with different levels of coverage and deductibles so the employees can choose what works for them.

And - cmy - is it true that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?
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      05-02-2019, 07:28 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
Single payer is coming no matter wha you all want to say. Either it's gonna be the government or it's gonna be a private company monopoly. You pick if you pick monopoly you are insane... have you ever tried to cancel your Comcast cable haha that s what monopoly life is like except with your actual life
So if government is the only player in the game - wouldn't that also be a monopoly? Of course it would.

So - what you are really saying is that I have a choice between a government monopoly or a private monopoly? Hmm - seems like a no brainer to me then. I will take the private monopoly. The government already has a monopoly on healthcare for the VA. How's that working out? Let's take a look below:

https://www.wral.com/-absolutely-hor...ital/16555985/
https://veteranshospitalhorrorstories.tumblr.com/
https://nypost.com/2018/03/29/these-...tout-progress/
https://www.npr.org/2018/06/21/60112...nd-retaliation
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...king/95051764/
https://www.disabledveterans.org/201...orror-stories/
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign...ries-at-the-va
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rst/800303001/

In addition - the difference between trying to cancel my Comcast service and trying to cancel a government service, is that Comcast can't put me in jail or have me arrested or shot if I refuse and say no.

The government is tyranny and more of it should be avoided at all costs. Those like you who think it is benevolent are fools. Government is just people, only it typically tends to be people from the less desirable segments of the population at large.
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      05-02-2019, 08:17 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
Single payer is coming no matter wha you all want to say. Either it's gonna be the government or it's gonna be a private company monopoly. You pick if you pick monopoly you are insane... have you ever tried to cancel your Comcast cable haha that s what monopoly life is like except with your actual life
So if government is the only player in the game - wouldn't that also be a monopoly? Of course it would.

So - what you are really saying is that I have a choice between a government monopoly or a private monopoly? Hmm - seems like a no brainer to me then. I will take the private monopoly. The government already has a monopoly on healthcare for the VA. How's that working out? Let's take a look below:

https://www.wral.com/-absolutely-hor...ital/16555985/
https://veteranshospitalhorrorstories.tumblr.com/
https://nypost.com/2018/03/29/these-...tout-progress/
https://www.npr.org/2018/06/21/60112...nd-retaliation
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...king/95051764/
https://www.disabledveterans.org/201...orror-stories/
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign...ries-at-the-va
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rst/800303001/

In addition - the difference between trying to cancel my Comcast service and trying to cancel a government service, is that Comcast can't put me in jail or have me arrested or shot if I refuse and say no.

The government is tyranny and more of it should be avoided at all costs. Those like you who think it is benevolent are fools. Government is just people, only it typically tends to be people from the less desirable segments of the population at large.
So you think the us military is more accountable or private black water company?? You won't answer I know

Also you keep talking about VA. Va is govt run doctor and hospital that is different from govt run insurance. The doctors still work for hospitals or their own office but they get paid by govt. actually right now Medicare is one of the biggest payouts already so it's not much different.

You have crazy republican fear of govt healthcare and have a lot of theory on why it's bad but there is actually proof of how good it is in the U.K. There's also a lot of proof here on how good the NIH and CDC are run. I go with proof instead of your crazy republican theoretical fear haha
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      05-02-2019, 08:23 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post

You have crazy republican fear of govt healthcare and have a lot of theory on why it's bad but there is actually proof of how good it is in the U.K. There's also a lot of proof here on how good the NIH and CDC are run. I go with proof instead of your crazy republican theoretical fear haha
Are your meds not covered?
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      05-02-2019, 08:46 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
So you think the us military is more accountable or private black water company?? You won't answer I know

Also you keep talking about VA. Va is govt run doctor and hospital that is different from govt run insurance. The doctors still work for hospitals or their own office but they get paid by govt. actually right now Medicare is one of the biggest payouts already so it's not much different.

You have crazy republican fear of govt healthcare and have a lot of theory on why it's bad but there is actually proof of how good it is in the U.K. There's also a lot of proof here on how good the NIH and CDC are run. I go with proof instead of your crazy republican theoretical fear haha
the VA is government run healthcare on government run health insurance.

The VA is the best example of why we dont need the government in our healthcare or insurance. The inefficiencies of the government are staggering across all government run organizations.

maybe its because everyone wants to just sweep the shitty VAs under the rug because it doesnt affect them, but I have seen the shit care that the VA provides to close friends and family and it isnt pretty. All these people saying you will still get a choice on which procedures you get or which drs you get to see, need to look into the VA hospitals and all the issues they bring.
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      05-02-2019, 09:17 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
So you think the us military is more accountable or private black water company?? You won't answer I know

Also you keep talking about VA. Va is govt run doctor and hospital that is different from govt run insurance. The doctors still work for hospitals or their own office but they get paid by govt. actually right now Medicare is one of the biggest payouts already so it's not much different.

You have crazy republican fear of govt healthcare and have a lot of theory on why it's bad but there is actually proof of how good it is in the U.K. There's also a lot of proof here on how good the NIH and CDC are run. I go with proof instead of your crazy republican theoretical fear haha
the VA is government run healthcare on government run health insurance.

The VA is the best example of why we dont need the government in our healthcare or insurance. The inefficiencies of the government are staggering across all government run organizations.

maybe its because everyone wants to just sweep the shitty VAs under the rug because it doesnt affect them, but I have seen the shit care that the VA provides to close friends and family and it isnt pretty. All these people saying you will still get a choice on which procedures you get or which drs you get to see, need to look into the VA hospitals and all the issues they bring.
And on the other way of looking at it UCLA is govt run hospital and top 10 in America and one of best in world. So how to explain?
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      05-02-2019, 09:32 AM   #99
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And on the other way of looking at it UCLA is govt run hospital and top 10 in America and one of best in world. So how to explain?
do you understand the difference between state and federal governments?

Also, by your earlier post, you believe the healthcare market is turning into a monopoly, and yet there are almost twice as many public hospitals as there are private hospitals. So you are somewhat correct, they are turning into a monopoly. Just not the direction you thought.

"According to the 2014 American Hospital Association Annual Survey, there are 5,686 hospitals in the United States. Of that total, 2,904 are public hospitals, and 1,060 are private. There are a total of 795,603 staffed beds in public hospitals and 118,910 staffed beds in private hospitals."
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      05-02-2019, 09:34 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Moonbat View Post
Politicians of all stripes are saying that health care is a right. By that they don't mean a constitutional right of course... they mean it's a human right.

But that's so cruel. What of my feline and canine brothers and sisters? Should they suffer needlessly just because they're cared for by a family of moderate means? Our fur-baby is approaching the end of life. It's hundreds to over a thousand every month. Why?

Medicare for All needs to be Medicare for ALL!
You literally have the most appropriate screen name of all time on BP.

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      05-02-2019, 10:24 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
And on the other way of looking at it UCLA is govt run hospital and top 10 in America and one of best in world. So how to explain?
do you understand the difference between state and federal governments?

Also, by your earlier post, you believe the healthcare market is turning into a monopoly, and yet there are almost twice as many public hospitals as there are private hospitals. So you are somewhat correct, they are turning into a monopoly. Just not the direction you thought.

"According to the 2014 American Hospital Association Annual Survey, there are 5,686 hospitals in the United States. Of that total, 2,904 are public hospitals, and 1,060 are private. There are a total of 795,603 staffed beds in public hospitals and 118,910 staffed beds in private hospitals."
You can't argue this one from internet search, the consolidation is very well known by anyone in healthcare you sound like you are trying to argue smoking doesn't cause lung cancer. What everyone talking about isn't if it's happening but what we should do about it
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      05-02-2019, 10:26 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
do you understand the difference between state and federal governments?

Also, by your earlier post, you believe the healthcare market is turning into a monopoly, and yet there are almost twice as many public hospitals as there are private hospitals. So you are somewhat correct, they are turning into a monopoly. Just not the direction you thought.

"According to the 2014 American Hospital Association Annual Survey, there are 5,686 hospitals in the United States. Of that total, 2,904 are public hospitals, and 1,060 are private. There are a total of 795,603 staffed beds in public hospitals and 118,910 staffed beds in private hospitals."
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
You can't argue this one from internet search, the consolidation is very well known by anyone in healthcare you sound like you are trying to argue smoking doesn't cause lung cancer. What everyone talking about isn't if it's happening but what we should do about it
LOL. TheWatchGuy - so what I believe he is telling you is to ignore the facts you have found that support your conclusion and just believe his made up baloney because he says so.

I am officially dumber after reading this response.

Too funny.
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      05-02-2019, 10:28 AM   #103
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most posts here are completely uninformed. the VA has issues mostly bureaucratic in nature. but MOST VA hospitals provide excellent care and MOST VA hospitals have an association with a major medical school - meaning that the docs at a typical state run medical school also have an appointment at a connected VA hospital and work there as well. typically VA care is quite good. the VA tends not to overload docs from a work perspective meaning that a typical VA primary care doc sees 15-20 pts a day where as a large private clinic the doc may see 30 or more patients a day. say you are at a high end hospital like harvard medical center, its MDs also work at Veteran Affairs Boston Healthcare System... for profit medicine makes money because they limit care and do the bare minimum. its pure fallacy to think that somehow the free market is going to improve medicine, it simply does not. it creates a care system that bilks insurance carriers, rations care and delivers the difference to shareholders.
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      05-02-2019, 11:01 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Government is just people, only it typically tends to be people from the less desirable segments of the population at large.
I resemble this remark!! Wait, whut???
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      05-02-2019, 11:05 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by stbm5 View Post
most posts here are completely uninformed. the VA has issues mostly bureaucratic in nature. but MOST VA hospitals provide excellent care and MOST VA hospitals have an association with a major medical school - meaning that the docs at a typical state run medical school also have an appointment at a connected VA hospital and work there as well. typically VA care is quite good. the VA tends not to overload docs from a work perspective meaning that a typical VA primary care doc sees 15-20 pts a day where as a large private clinic the doc may see 30 or more patients a day. say you are at a high end hospital like harvard medical center, its MDs also work at Veteran Affairs Boston Healthcare System... for profit medicine makes money because they limit care and do the bare minimum. its pure fallacy to think that somehow the free market is going to improve medicine, it simply does not. it creates a care system that bilks insurance carriers, rations care and delivers the difference to shareholders.

So how many VA's have you been to as a patient? Me - I've been to several, including to have major work done from blast injury while working as a government official overseas.

The bulk of my experience at the VA was far worse than the normal hospital care I've received before or since. So bad, as a matter of fact, that I refuse to go anymore - even though I could get the care gratis, I pay to go to a regular hospital.

What care have you been provided at the VA?
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      05-02-2019, 04:03 PM   #106
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LOL. TheWatchGuy - so what I believe he is telling you is to ignore the facts you have found that support your conclusion and just believe his made up baloney because he says so.

I am officially dumber after reading this response.

Too funny.
sorry, i forgot facts arent facts if they support the other side's argument.

silly me.
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      05-02-2019, 05:59 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
do you understand the difference between state and federal governments?

Also, by your earlier post, you believe the healthcare market is turning into a monopoly, and yet there are almost twice as many public hospitals as there are private hospitals. So you are somewhat correct, they are turning into a monopoly. Just not the direction you thought.

"According to the 2014 American Hospital Association Annual Survey, there are 5,686 hospitals in the United States. Of that total, 2,904 are public hospitals, and 1,060 are private. There are a total of 795,603 staffed beds in public hospitals and 118,910 staffed beds in private hospitals."
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
You can't argue this one from internet search, the consolidation is very well known by anyone in healthcare you sound like you are trying to argue smoking doesn't cause lung cancer. What everyone talking about isn't if it's happening but what we should do about it
LOL. TheWatchGuy - so what I believe he is telling you is to ignore the facts you have found that support your conclusion and just believe his made up baloney because he says so.

I am officially dumber after reading this response.

Too funny.
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You crazy republicans and your alternative facts
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      05-02-2019, 06:46 PM   #108
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You crazy republicans and your alternative facts
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      05-02-2019, 08:06 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by cmyx6go View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmyE93M3 View Post
I live in Canada but work in the U.S. as a CEO of a company, I can tell you seeing both sides of the equation that flat out, a government oriented system like that of Canada, Sweden, Norway, where ever, will simply not work in the U.S. I cannot be convinced otherwise. I see the group benefit costs to the company I run and every single year it increases by minimum 8% to 12%. We play with the deductibles, decrease some nice to have coverages and ensure a good, solid, meat and potatoes health care for the employee's while still accepting as much premium as we can spare and this is frankly not ideal, but the best course to take in the States.
This is so true. For years we paid for our employees medical coverage, but the costs got out of hand so we had no choice but to pass on the costs. That was tough, I thought we were going to have mutiny. No one appreciated all the years we did pay, or that fact that most other companies did not pay for their employees. We do contribute so the employee doesn't pay 100%. The yearly increases are staggering. We now offer a few different plans with different levels of coverage and deductibles so the employees can choose what works for them.

And - cmy - is it true that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?
Awesome handle! More of a great minds think alike!

Curious about learning more on how you guys handled the medical benefits for employee's when it was passed to the employee. This shit keeps me up at night worrying how long we can continue to cover the costs.
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      05-02-2019, 08:36 PM   #110
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As a secondary thought/comment, a few members in this thread (shall remain nameless) but you know who you are, keep digging a little deep on this topic, posting stats and what not. Don't complicate it by making it political as the politicians do, it simply is what they do, it's in their job title.

I won't speak for other countries but in Canada, the fundamental of health care is not about "human right" to receive medical. It's about the money, like everything else, and when I say money, I mean tax.

For the government to collect tax, the population must be working, in order to be working it must be healthy, hence government-funded medical care. They do it because they want everyone working, so they can tax you.

Whatever State you live in now, take your gross income and whack it by:

15% if you make less than $47K
20.5% if you make between $47.5K to $97K
26.5% if you make between $97.5K to $149K
33% if you break north of $150K
Any kind of significant bonus/commission gets hit at 47.5% over and above normal base pay. We call this getting taxed at source (your job), they collect it and remit to the government monthly or quarterly depending on the thresholds/rules for submission.

(the above rates are from memory so don't crush me if I am a percent or two off)

Now, think about your current tax rate happening on your paycheck, think about your current private or company co-pay scenario, is it less or more than if you were hit with tax rates like that of Canada/Norway/Sweden etc...etc...

In the end, it's medical care, I think Canadian medical care in major cities is on par with U.S. quality. I have had procedures in both countries and I didn't feel the difference except I saw what it cost in the States and thanked God I was covered by the company. In Canada or if you had a similar system to it, you simply don't contemplate it. You don't see the cost, you don't ask the cost and they don't tell you the cost.

The one benefit I find in Canada is, ignorance is bliss when it comes to this kind of thing.
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