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      05-01-2019, 09:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTSean View Post
You lost me there, I'm not sure how "who should I vote for" became part of the discussion. You should vote for the person you believe will best serve the role for which they are running.
The original post blames the Democrats for this idea but both parties (or at least Trump) is promising a new health care system that is affordable for all. For me this is a big issue and from what I can tell at the Presidential level they both plan big changes (see the Trump quote above), not just the Democrats.
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      05-01-2019, 09:36 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
The original post blames the Democrats for this idea but both parties (or at least Trump) is promising a new health care system that is affordable for all. For me this is a big issue and from what I can tell at the Presidential level they both plan big changes (see the Trump quote above), not just the Democrats.
The difference is in Congress, where laws are actually made, Rebublicans will never be united behind it. When Democrats were united in 2008, they did it.
You also can't (ok shouldn't) have legislation that impactful be partisan. Obamacare has also proved that. Democrats have been "paying" for that for 11 years. I don't see Medicare for all being any different if it were passed by a Democratic Congress and signed by a Democratic president.
I suppose the opposite is potentially true as well - if Republicans DID repeal Obamacare and replace with their own version, that democrats would fight it out of spite when they return to power.

Regardless of the results - the American people are the ones who actually lose.
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      05-01-2019, 09:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTSean View Post
The difference is in Congress, where laws are actually made, Rebublicans will never be united behind it. When Democrats were united in 2008, they did it.
You also can't (ok shouldn't) have legislation that impactful be partisan. Obamacare has also proved that. Democrats have been "paying" for that for 11 years. I don't see Medicare for all being any different if it were passed by a Democratic Congress and signed by a Democratic president.
I suppose the opposite is potentially true as well - if Republicans DID repeal Obamacare and replace with their own version, that democrats would fight it out of spite when they return to power.

Regardless of the results - the American people are the ones who actually lose.
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      05-01-2019, 09:42 AM   #26
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I think single-payer or whatever is ultimately inevitable in this country. What form it's to take is anyone's guess, but it has to happen as these completely out of control medical costs simply cannot continue. It's to the point now where many people pay more per month on their damned health insurance than they do on their mortgages, and the costs just keep going up year after year.

Add in the sad truth that more members of the Free Shit Army are being elected to higher offices, and single-payer is coming I believe.
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      05-01-2019, 09:47 AM   #27
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Wouldn't "health care as a right" require a constitutional amendment?
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      05-01-2019, 09:47 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
People always say "go look at Sweden, Norway, do it like that!". They don't realize that Sweden and Norway are insanely healthy countries. People bike everywhere and their health problems are minimal.

We will GO BROKE. Look around you, we are surrounded by fat fucks. This will never work in America.

Government control is always sold as a new "freedom". If anyone has ever worked with the VA, the thought of government run healthcare will send shivers down your spine.
Just wait till all the tens of thousands illegal aliens that have been flooding and will continue to flood across our border are added to the roster. The USA boat won't be able to float taking on all that water and will sink. But the libs are ok with that because they MIGHT regain power in Washington for a couple years before the country fails. It's worth it for them.
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      05-01-2019, 09:53 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Just wait till all the tens of thousands illegal aliens that have been flooding and will continue to flood across our border are added to the roster. The USA boat won't be able to float taking on all that water and will sink. But the libs are ok with that because they MIGHT regain power in Washington for a couple years before the country fails. It's worth it for them.
Exactly, this is the nightmare scenario. Open borders with unlimited access to healthcare, what could go wrong?
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      05-01-2019, 09:54 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by cmyx6go View Post
I'm looking for honest opinions on people's preference regarding medical insurance. I'm not sure if it is possible to separate this from politics and not go down the road of whether medical insurance is a right.

I imagine most of us here have private medical insurance, and with that comes the option of staying in network for a co-pay or going out of network and paying for it yourself. In most cases, unless you're really sick you will never meet the deductible for out of network.

I am very fortunate to have the ability to go to any doctor I choose regardless of whether he/she take my insurance. I will not choose a doctor, or change doctors due to who is in or out of network.

The thought of this choice being taken away from me is terrifying. It seems most of the Democrats that have thrown their hat in the race are for medicare for all. I try and tell myself that this won't be an issue. Even if a democrat wins 2020, they'll never get this through, it's a talking point/platform that will never be delivered. BUT, what if? Have any of the democrats here actually thought this through? Are you willing to have the government control your medical care and take away your choices so that everyone has medical coverage?

EDIT: Please correct me if my thought process is incorrect. I can still go to doctors of my choice but will there be less doctors to choose from?
But I thought most of the money in healthcare doesn't goto doctors it goes to insurance companies and private companies. So when you say healthcare for all we are saying stop giving money to insurance companies and give more poor ppl healthcare with they money. I know doctors in damage make the same as here so they are happy. Main problem is we give away soo much money to an insurance company for what?? So someone with no medical training who pushes papers can tell me what test I'm allowed to get?

I don't think the doctors go away or the govt says you can't chose a doctor since they still need the doctors. It's all the rich and shady insurance companies we don't need.

But insurance companies give so much money to political parties so crazy republicans will protect them
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      05-01-2019, 09:59 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
Exactly, this is the nightmare scenario. Open borders with unlimited access to healthcare, what could go wrong?
Yup exactly, the govt fucks up most things it touches. Always did and always will. Not a chance that a Medicare for all will work.
One just needs to look at Social Security and the trouble there. That boat is close to capsizing already.
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      05-01-2019, 10:10 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
But I thought most of the money in healthcare doesn't goto doctors it goes to insurance companies and private companies. So when you say healthcare for all we are saying stop giving money to insurance companies and give more poor ppl healthcare with they money. I know doctors in damage make the same as here so they are happy. Main problem is we give away soo much money to an insurance company for what?? So someone with no medical training who pushes papers can tell me what test I'm allowed to get?

I don't think the doctors go away or the govt says you can't chose a doctor since they still need the doctors. It's all the rich and shady insurance companies we don't need.

But insurance companies give so much money to political parties so crazy republicans will protect them
Is this thought based on anything or just what your doctor told you? Health insurance is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the US. Profit is actually limited by the ACA (you know, Obamacare)

Here's a link - read if you like https://www.verywellhealth.com/healt...rofits-1738941

I think this is the best passage
Quote:
Currently, health insurers are the only segment of the health care industry in which profits are directly curtailed. In the rest of the industry (ie, hospitals, device manufacturers, pharmaceuticals, etc.), a more free-market approach is taken.
I'm not entirely pointing the finger at the medical community, but maybe health insurance wouldn't be so expensive if hospitals didn't charge $3000 for an ER visit including an IV bag and 2 hours of observation, or 40.00 for a Valium (just one).
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      05-01-2019, 10:16 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Just wait till all the tens of thousands illegal aliens that have been flooding and will continue to flood across our border are added to the roster. The USA boat won't be able to float taking on all that water and will sink. But the libs are ok with that because they MIGHT regain power in Washington for a couple years before the country fails. It's worth it for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
Exactly, this is the nightmare scenario. Open borders with unlimited access to healthcare, what could go wrong?
If this scenario were to ever become even remotely possible short the S&P500 ASAP and once you cover then move to Canada...
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      05-01-2019, 10:19 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post

But insurance companies give so much money to political parties so crazy republicans will protect them
Speaking of crazy...
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      05-01-2019, 10:20 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTSean View Post
Is this thought based on anything or just what your doctor told you? Health insurance is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the US. Profit is actually limited by the ACA (you know, Obamacare)

Here's a link - read if you like https://www.verywellhealth.com/healt...rofits-1738941

I think this is the best passage

I'm not entirely pointing the finger at the medical community, but maybe health insurance wouldn't be so expensive if hospitals didn't charge $3000 for an ER visit including an IV bag and 2 hours of observation, or 40.00 for a Valium (just one).
Let’s also remember that most of the money that “goes to insurance companies” comes right back in claims paid to doctors, clinics, hospitals and pharmacies. Yes, the insurance companies make profits, and yes the invest permiums to earn a return (as they should) until claims are paid, but “most of the money” flows through them and doesn’t stop with them.

I think if we’re going to try some universal coverage system, we should start small. Maybe catastrophic (defined as x% of annual income?) and preventative care, plus emergency? Everything else can be privately insured until we have the kinks and funding worked out.
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      05-01-2019, 10:22 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTSean View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
But I thought most of the money in healthcare doesn't goto doctors it goes to insurance companies and private companies. So when you say healthcare for all we are saying stop giving money to insurance companies and give more poor ppl healthcare with they money. I know doctors in damage make the same as here so they are happy. Main problem is we give away soo much money to an insurance company for what?? So someone with no medical training who pushes papers can tell me what test I'm allowed to get?

I don't think the doctors go away or the govt says you can't chose a doctor since they still need the doctors. It's all the rich and shady insurance companies we don't need.

But insurance companies give so much money to political parties so crazy republicans will protect them
Is this thought based on anything or just what your doctor told you? Health insurance is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the US. Profit is actually limited by the ACA (you know, Obamacare)

Here's a link - read if you like https://www.verywellhealth.com/healt...rofits-1738941

I think this is the best passage
Quote:
Currently, health insurers are the only segment of the health care industry in which profits are directly curtailed. In the rest of the industry (ie, hospitals, device manufacturers, pharmaceuticals, etc.), a more free-market approach is taken.
I'm not entirely pointing the finger at the medical community, but maybe health insurance wouldn't be so expensive if hospitals didn't charge $3000 for an ER visit including an IV bag and 2 hours of observation, or 40.00 for a Valium (just one).
That is really wrong just because profits are regulated doesn't mean the vast majority of money is going to insurance companies and private companies like drug companies and corporations that own hospitals. Doctors get only scraps! You make it sounds like doctor charges 3000 for visit and pockets that money. In your example the doctor makes about 40$ for that visit, whet do you think the rest is going?? Each doctor would be worth a few hundred million dollars if they pocketed even half of what hospital treatments cost that's a joke
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      05-01-2019, 10:26 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
But insurance companies give so much money to political parties so crazy republicans will protect them
Yup, here's them crazy ins. cos. giving so much money to republicans (red means republican contribution, blue mean democrat)

https://www.opensecrets.org/industri...us.php?ind=F09
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      05-01-2019, 10:37 AM   #38
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https://jacksonhealthcare.com/media-...cent-of-costs/

Doctor salary is 8% of total healthcare cost so I actually overestimated how much doctor would make in that example hah. So sad for doctors and so sad you all think doctors are all rolling money and overcharging. That is nuts
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      05-01-2019, 10:38 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
That is really wrong just because profits are regulated doesn't mean the vast majority of money is going to insurance companies and private companies like drug companies and corporations that own hospitals. Doctors get only scraps! You make it sounds like doctor charges 3000 for visit and pockets that money. In your example the doctor makes about 40$ for that visit, whet do you think the rest is going??
No I didn't. I made it sound like a hospital charged 3000 for an ER visit for a patient to lay in a bed for 2 hours with an IV drip (and they got all 3000 of it). I have no idea what the doctor got paid for that - if not enough, the doctor should take it up with the facility.

Quote:
Each doctor would be worth a few hundred million dollars if they pocketed even half of what hospital treatments cost that's a joke
Insurance companies don't set what hospital treatments cost. They only negotiate a rate they are willing to pay the hospital for that treatment if the hospital agrees to be part of their network. As part of that agreement, the hospital is not allowed to bill the member for the portion of the charge that is greater than the agreed upon allowable (aka the contracted rate). These rates are generally based on CMS (at least as a starting point), though, as I stated earlier - I do not know whether the CMS rates (which is what Medicare uses) are better or worse that a hospitals private contract with an insurance company (an educated guess tells me private insurance has more profitable rates than medicare though).
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      05-01-2019, 10:47 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
https://jacksonhealthcare.com/media-...cent-of-costs/

Doctor salary is 8% of total healthcare cost so I actually overestimated how much doctor would make in that example hah. So sad for doctors and so sad you all think doctors are all rolling money and overcharging. That is nuts
Actually in my example (which is a real life example), the doctor would have made 258.00. not too bad for 2 hours of work especially considering for those 2 hours, the doctor was actually present 3 or 4 times for a few minutes each.

And no one actually pointed any fingers directly at individual physicians. I said "the medical community". If I were to clarify, I'd say "hospital systems" because hospital facility charges are insane nowadays.
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      05-01-2019, 10:49 AM   #41
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america with a functioning healthcare system....HA!
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      05-01-2019, 11:36 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
That is really wrong just because profits are regulated doesn't mean the vast majority of money is going to insurance companies and private companies like drug companies and corporations that own hospitals. Doctors get only scraps! You make it sounds like doctor charges 3000 for visit and pockets that money. In your example the doctor makes about 40$ for that visit, whet do you think the rest is going?? Each doctor would be worth a few hundred million dollars if they pocketed even half of what hospital treatments cost that's a joke
So are you thinking that socialized healthcare is going to pay doctors more? If so I have to break something to you.
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      05-01-2019, 12:16 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
That is really wrong just because profits are regulated doesn't mean the vast majority of money is going to insurance companies and private companies like drug companies and corporations that own hospitals. Doctors get only scraps! You make it sounds like doctor charges 3000 for visit and pockets that money. In your example the doctor makes about 40$ for that visit, whet do you think the rest is going?? Each doctor would be worth a few hundred million dollars if they pocketed even half of what hospital treatments cost that's a joke
So are you thinking that socialized healthcare is going to pay doctors more? If so I have to break something to you.
No not at all, what I'm saying is I don't think it will affect doctors either good or bad since they are a really small piece of the wasted money. The real point was that the op was scared that he can't choose his own doctor with a new health system and I think that's false since doctors themselves won't be that affected and they will probably still be working doing the same job so your doctor probably won't go anywhere. The one who will get hit hard will be insurance company and ppl who profit a lot from waste and they are the ones putting crazy ideas on your heads because there's so much money being wasted and they collect all that money. Not doctors
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      05-01-2019, 12:17 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post

But insurance companies give so much money to political parties so crazy republicans will protect them
Speaking of crazy...
Already a personal attack so I guess you have no debate and you lost debate right
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