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      09-13-2020, 03:56 PM   #1
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Is the auto industry going to start increaszing cylinder count?

There are now more I4 (and some I3) engines in BMWs than ever before. Fewer I6s to choose from. Will things ever go back to more I6?
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      09-13-2020, 04:40 PM   #2
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I still cry daily over the loss of V12s in F1. Basically every thing gets worse over time.
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      09-13-2020, 05:21 PM   #3
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      09-13-2020, 05:41 PM   #4
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Not if you keep buying those 320d’s...
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      09-13-2020, 06:27 PM   #5
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This is all due to greenhouse gas emissions and fuel economy standards. Believe me car manufacturers are forced to downsize engines to meet these standards.

The future looks pretty bleak for the internal combustion engine and electrification is taking over already.
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      09-13-2020, 07:46 PM   #6
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Technology allows fantastic performance from 4CYL engines now, so no need for the extra cost/mass of the larger engines. The good news is that as long as manufacturers can keep meeting the ULEV standards with large displacement/more cylinder engines, they will keep producing them because of people like us that pay the money.

I just want a manual option back, screw the 10ths the auto is faster, it's stupid to not have a manual option in every driver's car.
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      09-13-2020, 07:52 PM   #7
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They're probably just going to add electric motors instead of cylinders.
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      09-13-2020, 08:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverDaily View Post
They're probably just going to add electric motors instead of cylinders.
I can't wait until there are electric motor hub-kits available for bolt-on. Add 15 instant hp/torque per wheel for $200 a side, hell yeah.
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      09-13-2020, 08:56 PM   #9
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Due to EU7, the head of Porsche Motorsport believes the answer is “yes”.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/big...coming-for-911

“I expect 20 percent more displacement on average for these EU7-capable engines. Many manufacturers will jump from four to six, or from six to eight [cylinders].“
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      09-13-2020, 09:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Due to EU7, the head of Porsche Motorsport believes the answer is “yes”.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/big...coming-for-911

“I expect 20 percent more displacement on average for these EU7-capable engines. Many manufacturers will jump from four to six, or from six to eight [cylinders].“
I think I linked that to you the other day

I must say the first time I thought about this was with the B57 quad turbo vs the SQ7 V8 engine as well as what Cummins are doing with the X15 class 8 truck engine and the various versions they make of that where it is derated down to levels a 12 or 13 litre engine can operate at, but they claim better efficiency.
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      09-13-2020, 11:39 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverDaily View Post
They're probably just going to add electric motors instead of cylinders.
Yep.

I mean, what do people want, torque-less engines that have to rev up to 8000 rpm? Those can be fun, but the world moved on. BMW went to turbos a long time ago for their max performance stuff. People want torque and power now, not at 6000rpm, so modern turbos are great for this. They also don't need to go 170mph in every car, so 260lb is plenty, especially if it is always on tap.

Now you have electric motors that can kick in. Either to boost the engine output, or spin the turbo, or as a supercharger.

What would increasing cylinder count get you? The only reason is to increase displacement if you need more tuning potential, say for a high performance variant.

Don't say reliability. Manufacturers care about selling cars, not 10-year reliability. It's someone else's problem if it grenades down the road and the people that keep the gravy train going for the manufacturers keep buying them.
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      09-14-2020, 01:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Due to EU7, the head of Porsche Motorsport believes the answer is "yes".

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/big...coming-for-911

"I expect 20 percent more displacement on average for these EU7-capable engines. Many manufacturers will jump from four to six, or from six to eight [cylinders]."
Great find and interesting read. Hopefully BMW return to their roots and identity.
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      09-14-2020, 01:57 AM   #13
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Ps. Thanks admin for the rename. Was trying to word the question.
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      09-14-2020, 05:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Yep.

I mean, what do people want, torque-less engines that have to rev up to 8000 rpm? Those can be fun, but the world moved on. BMW went to turbos a long time ago for their max performance stuff. People want torque and power now, not at 6000rpm, so modern turbos are great for this. They also don't need to go 170mph in every car, so 260lb is plenty, especially if it is always on tap.

Now you have electric motors that can kick in. Either to boost the engine output, or spin the turbo, or as a supercharger.

What would increasing cylinder count get you? The only reason is to increase displacement if you need more tuning potential, say for a high performance variant.

Don't say reliability. Manufacturers care about selling cars, not 10-year reliability. It's someone else's problem if it grenades down the road and the people that keep the gravy train going for the manufacturers keep buying them.
The auto parts industry is huge, so I disagree. The more vehicles a manufacturer can keep longer in the public fleet, the more money it makes.
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      09-14-2020, 06:32 AM   #15
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No.

The reasons are political of which science is used as justification.
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      09-14-2020, 06:48 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Due to EU7, the head of Porsche Motorsport believes the answer is "yes".

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/big...coming-for-911

"I expect 20 percent more displacement on average for these EU7-capable engines. Many manufacturers will jump from four to six, or from six to eight [cylinders]."
More likely a maybe.

“This new regulation is really difficult to fulfil because we will have different cold start emissions side and bigger catalytic converters. When I'm talking bigger, I'm talking a factor of three to four times more, so there will be a small chemical industrial factory in the car to really control this," he says.

Packaging is going to be an issue and automakers want to be able to sell powertrains world wide so that means engines which are compliant in more than one market.
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      09-14-2020, 08:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I think I linked that to you the other day
Quite possible. At any rate, I've been aware of this interview since it was first published in May.

Quote:
I must say the first time I thought about this was with the B57 quad turbo vs the SQ7 V8...
BMW won't be bringing back a diesel V8, however. I suspect that the tides will continue to turn toward PHEV over the next decade, limiting further diesel investment beyond the 48V tech being phased in to the B47 and B57 now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul_Glo View Post
Great find and interesting read. Hopefully BMW return to their roots and identity.
It seems to me that you are specifically looking for a return to I6 engines in *30i and, since you may not be the US (?), *20i vehicles as well, yes? If so, despite the Porsche engineer's views on coming regulatory changes, I would not bet on that. Instead, expect to see these pure gasoline models deprioritized in order to shift focus to *30e and *20e I4 PHEV models whose battery capacity will continue to grow and whose electric motor will get more and more powerful.

That aside, the fact is that BMW has dozens of I6 *40i and M*40i models, plus *30d, 40d, and M*40d models, and now *45e PHEVs. And they are planning to start adding new M*45 (or perhaps M*50e) I6 performance hybrids soon. In fact, BMW has more I6 powered models now than ever, although that's due largely to the fact that they have so many (too many, really) models in the lineup. Still, the I6 is alive and well at BMW in applications that require more power than an I4 could comfortably achieve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
More likely a maybe.

“This new regulation is really difficult to fulfil because we will have different cold start emissions side and bigger catalytic converters. When I'm talking bigger, I'm talking a factor of three to four times more, so there will be a small chemical industrial factory in the car to really control this," he says.

Packaging is going to be an issue and automakers want to be able to sell powertrains world wide so that means engines which are compliant in more than one market.
Yes, it is just one man's opinion, and I have been skeptical about how much impact this will really have. I think that the goal is to promote the development of PHEV drivetrains that rely more on electric power than has typically been the case to date. I suspect that this will indeed happen (its already starting to), and while we may see some displacement increases, it will not represent an industry-wide movement.
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      09-14-2020, 11:29 AM   #18
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Seems like a lot of manufactures are looking at new I6s. Mercedes released the M256 a couple years ago after not having an I6 for two decades. Mazda is releasing their I6 next year, FCA is working on the Tornado I6 for their performance cars. Gives me a little hope!
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      09-14-2020, 01:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Seems like a lot of manufactures are looking at new I6s. Mercedes released the M256 a couple years ago after not having an I6 for two decades. Mazda is releasing their I6 next year, FCA is working on the Tornado I6 for their performance cars. Gives me a little hope!
Don't forget JLR's new Ingenium I6 with electric supercharger and GM's new I6 diesel.

With the exception of Mazda's, these new I6 engines are replacing legacy V6 families, typically boasting less displacement, not more. They are making a comeback because they have more in common with I4 engines than V6s do, so in the long term they will be more economical.

This is indeed great news, but I would not expect to see any of these used in applications where a turbocharged I4 is used today. The possible wild-card here is the Mazda SkyActive I6 which is rumored to have a naturally aspirated variant, assuming it ever sees the light of day.
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      09-14-2020, 01:33 PM   #20
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I'm not optimistic. Smaller motors and now electric motors are putting out power that larger displacement motors from 10-15 years ago could only dream of. For mass market appeal, no one is going to want a large displacement v8 anymore when you can get the same or better performance with far higher efficiency for a hybrid 4. Maybe we'll see some small displacement 6 and 8 cylinders, but those can be costly to produce. Hell, even the C63 is suppose to get a hybrid 4.

I think we'll see far more hybrids as automakers move to electrification.
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      09-14-2020, 01:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quite possible. At any rate, I've been aware of this interview since it was first published in May.


BMW won't be bringing back a diesel V8, however. I suspect that the tides will continue to turn toward PHEV over the next decade, limiting further diesel investment beyond the 48V tech being phased in to the B47 and B57 now.
Ahh I worded that poorly. What I meant is that by limiting themselves to an i6 3.0 they weren't able to hit the levels that Audi could probably due to emissions, we are seeing that as being even more true now with the 50d leaving sale
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      09-14-2020, 02:02 PM   #22
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The new Lexus IS will have a BMW i6.
It will be interesting to see how much of a come back the i6 makes and whether the i3 quad turbo is abandoned. Wonder if we'll see more hybrid i6's.
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