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      10-11-2019, 10:33 PM   #2421
IK6SPEED
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.
Not to dump petrol on this battery fire, but BMW did indeed fail on BEVs, certainly by the numbers. Further, BMW's head of dev, Klaus Fröhlich is constantly saying stupid crap like this from June:
"There are no customer requests for BEVs. None. … There are regulator requests for BEVs, but no customer requests. … If we have a big offer, a big incentive, we could flood Europe and sell a million cars, but Europeans won't buy these things."
We can see the failure if we take sales numbers from 1h2019 in the top European BEV markets - Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands - where BMW sold ~4,100 i3s and Tesla sold ~13,000 Model 3s, a 3:1 loss in key markets against just Tesla. The only country where i3 sales come close is Germany and Tesla still beats BMW in sales. And keep in mind, this is JUST Tesla and JUST the 3, not other Tesla models or other BEVs.

So, yes, BMW's electric strategy is an absolute failure, however they have no choice but to proceed and double down, which is why Keuger is out. From Bloomberg:
As Krueger puzzled over how to reinvent BMW for the electric age, it was almost a year before he presented his strategic vision — which was a bust. He delayed BMW's next major electric car, effectively squandering its leadership in the field. Key engineers quit to set up an electric-vehicle startup. And to help pay for the shift, Krueger doubled down on gas-guzzling, super-charged luxury cars such as the 8-Series sports car and full-size X7 SUV.

"BMW took its head start in electric cars for granted and then failed to hit the accelerator again when needed," said Christian Ludwig, an analyst at Bankhaus Lampe in Bielefeld, Germany.
Ironically, here's what Krueger said in June:
"We have taken numerous decisions that we are now bringing to the road. By 2021, we will have doubled our sales of electrified vehicles compared with 2019."
Not that even if that comes to pass they still lose in sales to just Tesla alone, not accounting for any other competitors.
Selling more cars than Tesla is not the metric of success for an Electric Strategy.

It's a long term marathon.

America did not put an American on the Moon with the Mercury series either. Nor did they Wright Brothers fly a Concorde at Kitty Hawk. And Henry Ford did not build a Ford GT off his first assembly line.
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      10-11-2019, 11:14 PM   #2422
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Selling more cars than Tesla is not the metric of success for an Electric Strategy.

It's a long term marathon.
Well then they got their asses kicked on the first leg of the marathon by an upstart and by multiples - and their CEO's electric strategy got him fired (not to mention his margin failure).

... and given their Dir of Dev Klaus Fröhlich doesn't think customers want BEVs (he's right in that customers don't want BMW BEVs), I'm guessing it won't be long until Zipse tells him he's out too. Keep an eye out for that headline!

Further, look for BMW to pull back on carbon fiber in their future BEVs (ref margin point)
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      10-12-2019, 12:26 AM   #2423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.
Not to dump petrol on this battery fire, but BMW did indeed fail on BEVs, certainly by the numbers. Further, BMW's head of dev, Klaus Fröhlich is constantly saying stupid crap like this from June:
"There are no customer requests for BEVs. None. … There are regulator requests for BEVs, but no customer requests. … If we have a big offer, a big incentive, we could flood Europe and sell a million cars, but Europeans won't buy these things."
We can see the failure if we take sales numbers from 1h2019 in the top European BEV markets - Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands - where BMW sold ~4,100 i3s and Tesla sold ~13,000 Model 3s, a 3:1 loss in key markets against just Tesla. The only country where i3 sales come close is Germany and Tesla still beats BMW in sales. And keep in mind, this is JUST Tesla and JUST the 3, not other Tesla models or other BEVs.

So, yes, BMW's electric strategy is an absolute failure, however they have no choice but to proceed and double down, which is why Keuger is out. [COLOR="Blue"]From Bloomberg:[/COLOR]
As Krueger puzzled over how to reinvent BMW for the electric age, it was almost a year before he presented his strategic vision — which was a bust. He delayed BMW's next major electric car, effectively squandering its leadership in the field. Key engineers quit to set up an electric-vehicle startup. And to help pay for the shift, Krueger doubled down on gas-guzzling, super-charged luxury cars such as the 8-Series sports car and full-size X7 SUV.

"BMW took its head start in electric cars for granted and then failed to hit the accelerator again when needed," said Christian Ludwig, an analyst at Bankhaus Lampe in Bielefeld, Germany.
Ironically, here's what Krueger said in June:
"We have taken numerous decisions that we are now bringing to the road. By 2021, we will have doubled our sales of electrified vehicles compared with 2019."
Note that even if Krueger's prediction comes to pass they still lose in sales to just Tesla alone, not accounting for any other competitors.

Horrendous sales numbers, failed strategy, ousted CEO = failure.


Back on topic of the new g8x design: there's bravery, and then there's hold-my-beer stupidity ... which is this? Well, a lead designer usually doesn't put out a letter defending bravery.
Tesla sells many cars, but consistently does so at a loss. Is this a sensible business plan? I suppose anyone can sell more units at a loss, depending on how much of a loss you're willing to accept. How long can they continue to consistently lose profit until the honeymoon is over and investors decide to sell out while there's still something to sell? Everyone eventually has to pay their debt, regardless of what they promise for the future.
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      10-12-2019, 12:41 AM   #2424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.
Not to dump petrol on this battery fire, but BMW did indeed fail on BEVs, certainly by the numbers. Further, BMW's head of dev, Klaus Fröhlich is constantly saying stupid crap like this from June:
"There are no customer requests for BEVs. None. … There are regulator requests for BEVs, but no customer requests. … If we have a big offer, a big incentive, we could flood Europe and sell a million cars, but Europeans won't buy these things."
We can see the failure if we take sales numbers from 1h2019 in the top European BEV markets - Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands - where BMW sold ~4,100 i3s and Tesla sold ~13,000 Model 3s, a 3:1 loss in key markets against just Tesla. The only country where i3 sales come close is Germany and Tesla still beats BMW in sales. And keep in mind, this is JUST Tesla and JUST the 3, not other Tesla models or other BEVs.

So, yes, BMW's electric strategy is an absolute failure, however they have no choice but to proceed and double down, which is why Keuger is out. [COLOR="Blue"]From Bloomberg:[/COLOR]
As Krueger puzzled over how to reinvent BMW for the electric age, it was almost a year before he presented his strategic vision — which was a bust. He delayed BMW's next major electric car, effectively squandering its leadership in the field. Key engineers quit to set up an electric-vehicle startup. And to help pay for the shift, Krueger doubled down on gas-guzzling, super-charged luxury cars such as the 8-Series sports car and full-size X7 SUV.

"BMW took its head start in electric cars for granted and then failed to hit the accelerator again when needed," said Christian Ludwig, an analyst at Bankhaus Lampe in Bielefeld, Germany.
Ironically, here's what Krueger said in June:
"We have taken numerous decisions that we are now bringing to the road. By 2021, we will have doubled our sales of electrified vehicles compared with 2019."
Note that even if Krueger's prediction comes to pass they still lose in sales to just Tesla alone, not accounting for any other competitors.

Horrendous sales numbers, failed strategy, ousted CEO = failure.


Back on topic of the new g8x design: there's bravery, and then there's hold-my-beer stupidity ... which is this? Well, a lead designer usually doesn't put out a letter defending bravery.
Tesla sells many cars, but consistently does so at a loss. Is this a sensible business plan? I suppose anyone can sell more units at a loss, depending on how much of a loss you're willing to accept. How long can they continue to consistently lose profit until the honeymoon is over and investors decide to sell out while there's still something to sell? Everyone eventually has to pay their debt, regardless of what they promise for the future.
That, PLUS I believe the surge for Tesla with the Model 3 came from those who had been waiting multiple years for delivery.
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      10-12-2019, 05:01 AM   #2425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Tesla sells many cars, but consistently does so at a loss. Is this a sensible business plan?
Well, it's a "yes" from Tesla's investors (see below) but let's try a quick thought experiment:

You and I build an car company from scratch and in 5 years we're beating entrenched competitors 3:1 and beating Porsche on the Nurburgring. Should we pack it up or raise money and keep going? If you wanted to pack it in, I'd buy you out, but unless you're a complete idiot you wouldn't. (note that no company in the history of automobiles has ever done that .... except Tesla)

In any event, here's the opinion of Tesla's investors the market:



(note: i'm not in TSLA, never have been, won't be, and will likely not ever own a Tesla)
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      10-12-2019, 10:37 AM   #2426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.

So quit telling me I took the thread off topic.

And clearly you do not understand Corporations.
Right and, as you highlighted, I said it was a failure in their eyes.

My point about it being off-topic is that you took that one line from what I said and provided me with the same 3 or 4 slides from their investor relations presentation, over multiple posts. I'm glad you can copy and paste but if you know corporations then you'll know internal discussions are often different than what is presented to the public and investors. By not meeting certain goals, aka failure(s), it has led to a reimplementation of that said strategy to attain those goals going forward. If they were to admit to not attaining such goals that would negatively affect their share price, which no company will do without having to.

Thanks to GrussGott for further clarifying along the same point.

Time will tell if sales are affected by the new design strategy but we won't know till the new 4 goes into production. Current G20 production doesn't incorporate this BS.
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      10-12-2019, 12:15 PM   #2427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Let's remember that you were the first to bring up the EVs and call them a failure in this thread.

So quit telling me I took the thread off topic.

And clearly you do not understand Corporations.
Right and, as you highlighted, I said it was a failure in their eyes.

My point about it being off-topic is that you took that one line from what I said and provided me with the same 3 or 4 slides from their investor relations presentation, over multiple posts. I'm glad you can copy and paste but if you know corporations then you'll know internal discussions are often different than what is presented to the public and investors. By not meeting certain goals, aka failure(s), it has led to a reimplementation of that said strategy to attain those goals going forward. If they were to admit to not attaining such goals that would negatively affect their share price, which no company will do without having to.

Thanks to GrussGott for further clarifying along the same point.

Time will tell if sales are affected by the new design strategy but we won't know till the new 4 goes into production. Current G20 production doesn't incorporate this BS.
If you really did know Corporations, you you know that releasing information in Investors Reports that goes against what the Company is actually doing or thinking are the grounds for Investor Lawsuits against the Company, Executives and Board of Directors.

Furthermore, as stated before, no BOD would allow a Company to continue a failed strategy.
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      10-12-2019, 06:03 PM   #2428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Tesla sells many cars, but consistently does so at a loss. Is this a sensible business plan?
Well, it's a "yes" from Tesla's investors (see below) but let's try a quick thought experiment:

You and I build an car company from scratch and in 5 years we're beating entrenched competitors 3:1 and beating Porsche on the Nurburgring. Should we pack it up or raise money and keep going? If you wanted to pack it in, I'd buy you out, but unless you're a complete idiot you wouldn't. (note that no company in the history of automobiles has ever done that .... except Tesla)

In any event, here's the opinion of Tesla's investors the market:



(note: i'm not in TSLA, never have been, won't be, and will likely not ever own a Tesla)
Eventually investors will realize that there's a cap on pure EV growth. Much of the infrastructure in the US, let alone the rest of the world, isn't amenable to unlimited EV ownership. There's variation in lifestyle, commuting requirements, living arrangements, among other circumstances that still present obstacles to EV ownership. How long will it take to change this? Will infrastructure and cultures around the world continue to change at a quick enough rate to accommodate the growth needed to sustain a company like Tesla, or will sales eventually plateau? Even with government incentives, and the growth and investor interest they currently generate, they can't seem to turn a profit very often. Should they continue riding the wave until it crashes? Of course, what other option do they currently have? It doesn't mean that other manufacturers should emulate that model. Like another member posted earlier, bmw doesn't necessarily need to match Tesla's current sales numbers.

It's worth noting that BMW and others are currently investing in EV technology, and their profits are taking a hit, at least partially due to this, however, they're still in the black. The difference is that bmw, along with other auto makers, haven't placed all of their eggs in the risky, high performance, luxury EV basket.
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      10-12-2019, 09:12 PM   #2429
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You're forgetting China, they are laser focused on EV, even if rest of the world don't go at same speed, China alone can definitely sustain a very large EV industry.
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      10-13-2019, 12:23 AM   #2430
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Look at TSLA this year, they were at $350 per share for about 3 months, then dropped down to about $240 or so for most of the year. That is quite a bit drop.

I agree with the comment from Sedan_Clan about the initial surge of demand - you can now just go and buy a Model 3. I think the next year will be very interesting to see if they continue to sell to new customers or if they just end up with a huge surplus of cars sitting around.
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      10-15-2019, 06:33 PM   #2431
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You're forgetting China, they are laser focused on EV, even if rest of the world don't go at same speed, China alone can definitely sustain a very large EV industry.
That's a good point.
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