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      09-25-2021, 10:00 AM   #23
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I really believe 90% of the people that are unvaccinated right now is due to them being scared of it. I was one of them until I did it.

Everyone I know that won't get it, it's because they're scared.

The country has really missed the opportunity to try and have a real rationale talk or explanation to convince these people. A govt official or a celebrity saying to get it isn't enough.

There needs to be like a prime time special on all major channels with scientists and non govt officials explaining why someone who's scared should get the shot.

The approach that got all the eager beavers out and vaccinated has not worked for the hesitant. And lambasting the hesitant only makes them dig their heels in more to opposition.

A real opportunity to unite was missed.

But that's just like my opinion man : )
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      09-25-2021, 10:04 AM   #24
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We need to stop pretending that only the unvaxed are taking up hospital beds. It's just not true. A large % are fully vaxed--34% in MA. That's not an insignificant number. But that is the narrative. And diverging from that narrative makes you stupid.
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      09-25-2021, 10:07 AM   #25
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For me the choice was simple. I'm absolutely terrible with keeping track of my keys. I lose them all the time. Now, since the vaccine, I just stick them to my arm and away I go. Problem solved.
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      09-25-2021, 10:09 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
Ok, if thatís your stance, how do you feel about treatment for the following:
Smokers (cancer, emphysema, COPD, etc)
Obese (Diabetes)
Snowboarders and skateboarders (fractures)
Swimmers (near-drowning, shark bites)
Drivers (auto accidents, with and without seatbelts).
I doubt we will se the day when anybody is going to tell a doctor (or an EMT) to step away from a patient. But we already limit who gets into the ED, and who pays for that care in many ways. Society clearly has a stake in limiting activities that cause harm to others, and will regulate accordingly (and sometimes for less altruistic reasons). Also lots of areas where society refuses to share the cost of the risk and puts it back onto the individual (but far less of this than I would like).

So:
1- we restrict smokers from doing it in public where it gives others health issues; insurance companies will (when permitted) charge you a lot more to cover the increased risk; and the only reason it is still legal is that it is supported by an industry with MAJOR lobbying power.
2- diabetes/obesity does not harm others, but there are a lot of rules prohibiting diabetics from taking jobs where the effects of their diabetes on performance could (e.g. commercial driving, pilots). And many insurance companies don't pay much for the supplies, so it is a very expensive 'tax' on obesity.
3- helmet laws (increasing across the states) are based upon the relative costs/damages of injuries vs. prevention; lots of cities ban these activities wherever they can for the same reason.
4 - ask somebody with a pool what they pay for homeowner liability (and shark bites? seriously? there's also lightning strikes while golfing to worry about if you like a long shot). Many localities won't permit swimming when no lifeguard is on duty.
5 - driving.... now there's an unregulated free for all, eh? And do you have any idea what getting cut out of your car and life-flighted to the hospital will cost? and how much of that your insurance will pay vs. shunting the cost onto whoever was found to be at fault?



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Originally Posted by 6oclockshadow View Post
ER and ICU are designed to operate near capacity. There is a shortage of HC workers, not beds. There are no ICU's currently in the US that have to refuse patients.......
First and final points are quite incorrect - both ED and ICU are ideally run with substantial flex capacity to accommodate unexpected events (same with fire and police). Business managers would love them to run at capacity, and are always pushing to this numerical ideal, which has participated in the ongoing crisis.

The statement that no ICU has had to refuse a patient is absurd - isn't this story about a guy who couldn't get the ECMO services he needed? This happened even before COVID, but usually they just transfer the patient to another open unit nearby. I've lost one patient to a situation where they were unable to travel, and the in-town hospitals were full (well before covid).

True that in medical terms "bed shortage" usually does not mean they don't have the furniture, but last year's vent shortage shows that it isn't JUST staffing. The ultimate effects upon the healthcare system are the underplayed crisis in this, perhaps worse than the direct effects of the infection (as noted, many weather it unscathed). I see little direct reporting about just how hard hospitals are getting hit, and from every side - financially underwater, losing staff to covid deaths, workers leaving b/c afraid of getting it, and antivax walkoffs; all while operating in the kind of legal 'gray area' that has them afraid of tons of expensive lawsuits. I think that we are very close to some form of either economic cost-sharing (making unvaxxed people pay out of pocket for those loooong ICU stays) or flat out restrictions (hospitals refusing to admit unvaxxed). Anything else and the entire system is going to collapse, and America is not going to be willing to lose its entire healthcare system. Also in the background is that a lot of healthcare is run by businessmen, and they are already searching out options to get while the getting is good; If we aren't careful we will see a slew of bankruptcy/closeouts that will leave us holding the bag while these companies fold up their tent and move over into other industries.

I'm a big supporter of freedom over your body, so I'd oppose making people get a shot. But making those who don't stay home or away from others? That seems to make a lot of sense. Those who oppose 'passports' or other official verification seem, to me, to be wanting to have it both ways - keeping their autonomy, while also having the benefits of a society (which requires compromise to work). And, of course, taking some of the elitism out of this - why aren't air travelers being forced to be vaxxed, when bus drivers, teachers, and concertgoers are? Because they are in a higher tax bracket, overall (just my cynical guess, could have something to do with how the solar radiation kills the bug once you get to 20000 ft).
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      09-25-2021, 10:15 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oclockshadow View Post
As of yesterday, there are 617 people in Massachusetts hospitals with covid. 212 of them are fully vaccinated. Over 1/3. Saying this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated is disingenuous.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavi...13-new-deaths/
It's kind of a shame that the stats dont give us the full picture. We have hospitalized patients who are fully vaccinated and we have number of COVID patients in the ICU and number of COVID patients intubated, but we dont have numbers of fully vaccinated patients who are in the ICU or intubated.

Remember, for a lot of folks the hospital is their primary care, which could be driving those numbers up. My wife's dad is fully vaccinated and caught COVID last month. He felt crappy and we were monitoring him at home. His O2 started to drop to the low 90s (he's also a life long smoker) so we took him to the ER as a precaution. He was admitted. So, technically hospitalized. They released him about 5 hours later. He felt good enough to toddle about and do some yard work 2 days later. I think a lot of folks are pretty cautious, especially with elderly loved ones, and will take them in just to be safe.

Anyway, point being, I would have loved to have seen numbers of fully vaccinated patients who are in the ICU or intubated. My gut is the numbers are extremely low. But hey, that's jut my gut feeling. I've got no data to back that up.
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      09-25-2021, 10:44 AM   #28
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I'm a Physician. Just came off a month in the ICU. Witnessed so many easily preventable deaths from Covid. All I can really do is administer Remdesevir, a course of steroid, and have respiratory therapy modulate their supplemental oxygen. Otherwise these people just sit for weeks until they die. In my hospital only about 5% of the ICU Covid patients are vaccinated.

So many people are just unreasonably stubborn and want to view everything in life through a political lens. Just get your damn vaccine and move on with life. And I say this as somebody who tends to lean right on fiscal and personal freedom issues.
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      09-25-2021, 10:53 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I'm a Physician. Just came off a month in the ICU. Witnessed so many easily preventable deaths from Covid. All I can really do is administer Remdesevir, a course of steroid, and have respiratory therapy modulate their supplemental oxygen. Otherwise these people just sit for weeks until they die. In my hospital only about 5% of the ICU Covid patients are unvaccinated.

So many people are just unreasonably stubborn and want to view everything in life through a political lens. Just get your damn vaccine and move on with life. And I say this as somebody who tends to lean right on fiscal and personal freedom issues.
5% are vaccinated, or unvaccinated?
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      09-25-2021, 10:55 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
5% are vaccinated, or unvaccinated?
Sorry 5% of the ICU Covid patients are vaccinated. The rest are unvaccinated. So very few people with the vaccine are ending up in the ICU. And those who are tend to have other risk factors such as old age, uncontrolled diabetes, obesity, or are immunocompromised from cancer.

Correction made above.
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      09-25-2021, 11:28 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oclockshadow View Post
We need to stop pretending that only the unvaxed are taking up hospital beds. It's just not true. A large % are fully vaxed--34% in MA. That's not an insignificant number. But that is the narrative. And diverging from that narrative makes you stupid.
I think it is just that most people understand that 66% is much more significant than 34%...
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      09-25-2021, 11:36 AM   #32
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I’m haven’t and will not take any covid vaccine. My spouse doesn’t have any intentions of getting any either, and will most likely be terminated from her job. While that sucks, we are fortunate enough to not have to worry about having a job to rely on, so we can’t be forced into making the decision to inject something just to have a job/income.

If anyone wants ours, feel free to double or triple up.
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      09-25-2021, 11:23 PM   #33
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I've decided that its up to me personally to look after my own health. Not everyone else.
And after being around the block with a chronic health issue, I've seen that doctor's live with ZERO consequence, and their drugs can make you worse.
No insurance company covered the treatment that gave me back my life. I paid nearly $10,000 total to get better with pure oxygen, but doctors want pharmaceutical & surgery kickbacks with repeat patients.
My Aunt, unfortunately decided to get the shot. Her daughter was a nurse and just like the people at the hospital (like car salesmen, every promise in the world), they said she would be fine. She got two blood clots and had to be rushed to hospital.
Given the evidence, I think we'll be choosing pass on that.

My family is making an informed choice to choose their health, and none of that should matter to the vaccinated. If it does, it means the shot doesn't work or you also don't trust what you've been given.
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      09-26-2021, 05:16 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunnny View Post
I've decided that its up to me personally to look after my own health. Not everyone else.
And after being around the block with a chronic health issue, I've seen that doctor's live with ZERO consequence, and their drugs can make you worse.
No insurance company covered the treatment that gave me back my life. I paid nearly $10,000 total to get better with pure oxygen, but doctors want pharmaceutical & surgery kickbacks with repeat patients.
My Aunt, unfortunately decided to get the shot. Her daughter was a nurse and just like the people at the hospital (like car salesmen, every promise in the world), they said she would be fine. She got two blood clots and had to be rushed to hospital.
Given the evidence, I think we'll be choosing pass on that.

My family is making an informed choice to choose their health, and none of that should matter to the vaccinated. If it does, it means the shot doesn't work or you also don't trust what you've been given.
Coincidence does not equal causality. Anecdotal evidence is not equal to statistical evidence.
Blood clots happened before the vaccine, and will happen after. Covid causes blood clots. I don't think the incidence has increased a significant amount.
If you think getting a vaccine in your arm is in any way similar to selling you a car, I have a bridge to sell you!
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      09-26-2021, 06:22 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oclockshadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
Ok, if that's your stance, how do you feel about treatment for the following:
Smokers (cancer, emphysema, COPD, etc)
Obese (Diabetes)
Snowboarders and skateboarders (fractures)
Swimmers (near-drowning, shark bites)
Drivers (auto accidents, with and without seatbelts).

We'll have to change the Hippocratic Oath and have all docs re-swear I suppose.

I'm vaccinated but I understand why many chose not to so far, including immunity from prior COVID, and real concerns about the vax and it being forced on them (this is part of a long mistrust of government issue for poor people especially African American inner city poor).

I also know that there are layers to the hospital capacity issue. One is we have had the pandemic in planning scenarios for decades and now in real life for 20 months. Why haven't hospitals created surge capacity? Another, staff losses and inability/unwillingness to hire, especially nursing staff (including resignations of those who aren't vaxed)? Perhaps there are also doc staffing issues, and other hospital staff. And then there are the treatments that seem to be very effective (monoclonal antibody is one) if given early, and reduce or eliminate hospital stay but have been politicized and now rationed, along with several claims about ivermectin and others. I'm not pretending to be expert on any of that, but mentioning some of the more real issues that complicate the vax decision for many and consequences on the health system.
ER and ICU are designed to operate near capacity. There is a shortage of HC workers, not beds. There are no ICU's currently in the US that have to refuse patients.

You left out HIV. We should refuse treatment and shun HIV patients because their risky behaviour put them in that situation.
That brings up a GREAT point here..
What if an anti vaccine person gets infected with HIV…..or, some may be currently infected with HIV..
Do you think they would suddenly go pro vaccine and get the vaccine if it was proven to cure HIV without any negative side effects?

Got to ask here. I'm just a drone who stood in line at boot camp and took the vaccine gun to the right shoulder, walked away with alcohol dripping down my arm whilst getting yelled at by male drill sergeants to get my BDU top back on and calling me female Manute Bol. Yes, they called me Manute in basic and AIT.. sucked.

You know what.. my got damn shoulder was sore for 3 days after that shot, but it's boot camp, I had a lots more going on like being scared shitless that I made a huuuge mistake joining the army and couldn't turn back and quit. When I laid in the barracks the first night awake and sleepless… I finally heard Taps play over the post loudspeaker at midnight. I cried my face off in that green wool blanket.
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      09-26-2021, 06:46 AM   #36
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Vaccinated to significantly reduce the chance of dying or being hospitalized. I’m a CPA and follow the math.

Also, I can sometimes predict the future and know this thread won’t last long.
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      09-26-2021, 06:47 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Maitre_Absolut View Post
If you refuse the vaccine, you should not be eligible for treatment if you get it. Simple as that. But we all now when shit hits the fan then the science is real lol
Exactly comrade. Those people should also probably be shot eh comrade?

You do know we fought against your kind in the 1930s and 40s right? I thought we had defeated you. Apparently not.
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      09-26-2021, 06:52 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunnny View Post
I've decided that its up to me personally to look after my own health. Not everyone else.
And after being around the block with a chronic health issue, I've seen that doctor's live with ZERO consequence, and their drugs can make you worse.
No insurance company covered the treatment that gave me back my life. I paid nearly $10,000 total to get better with pure oxygen, but doctors want pharmaceutical & surgery kickbacks with repeat patients.
My Aunt, unfortunately decided to get the shot. Her daughter was a nurse and just like the people at the hospital (like car salesmen, every promise in the world), they said she would be fine. She got two blood clots and had to be rushed to hospital.
Given the evidence, I think we'll be choosing pass on that.

My family is making an informed choice to choose their health, and none of that should matter to the vaccinated. If it does, it means the shot doesn't work or you also don't trust what you've been given.
Why it matters to those vaccinated is this thing called mutations. The more instances where this virus has a chance to get a foothold into someone, the increased chances it can mutate. Look at all the different strains that are already out due to the number of people that are unvaccinated. We're currently dealing with the delta strain.

And I agree with Littlebear about your example being just probably coincidence and anecdotal. And tons of medications have that one in a million probability of something bad happening that the majority of the population take daily without issue. If you're looking for a vaccine or drug that is 100% safe across every human, you're dreaming.
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      09-26-2021, 06:53 AM   #39
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The unfortunate situation is people are selfish and won't do the right thing for the betterment of others. Case in point. How many times have parents sent their kids to school knowing they are sick? How many times have people gone into work knowing they are sick but still do it even though they risk getting other coworkers sick? It's because of these behaviors that I see why mandates are being put into place.

I'm for mandates but only done in a smart way. The discussion about natural immunity is one thing that is not being captured in these mandates. Nor are specific medical reasons. I dated a lady who didn't get vaccinated by choice. She had severe reactions to past vaccines. She wants to get vaccinated but under advice from her doctor was told the risks for her are not worth it until more data is collected that can apply to her situation. I understand that and respect that. This is the problem when you have people making decisions under knee jerk reactions and having specific agendas without focusing purely on the medical aspects.

For me, I did get the Pfizer vaccine. This is coming from someone who has never had a Flu vaccine. I got it because if this is how we get back to normal faster, I'm all for it. As I've said before in other threads, the risks these vaccines pose are a cake walk compared to the crap I've had put into my body through chemotherapy. Want to see what real risks are? Take a look at all the side effects and risks from doing FOLFOX6 therapy. Granted my views on risks and my risk tolerance are all screwed up due to having faced my own mortality multiple times.
Why donít you just worry about yourself? We already know that vaccinated people still get Covid at the same levels non-vaccinated people do and they can spread it just as easily. So now you people are claiming that youíll have less severe symptoms if you are vaccinated. Fine go with that if you want to but that has nothing to do with forcing other people to take it. If you are protected by the vaccination why do you give two craps if I get vaccinated? Youíre safe right? Shit is going to get pretty serious here soon. Wait until you people start forcing kids to take this and weíre going to see rioting in the streets thatíll make last summer look like playtime. And lastly knock it off the whole guilt crap. Science proves that all BS now anyway. I donít believe for a second you donít know that either. I just think you donít care. If its good for you itís good for everyone else even if itís forced upon them. Thatís the way people like you think.
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      09-26-2021, 07:43 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Why donít you just worry about yourself? We already know that vaccinated people still get Covid at the same levels non-vaccinated people do and they can spread it just as easily. So now you people are claiming that youíll have less severe symptoms if you are vaccinated. Fine go with that if you want to but that has nothing to do with forcing other people to take it. If you are protected by the vaccination why do you give two craps if I get vaccinated? Youíre safe right? Shit is going to get pretty serious here soon. Wait until you people start forcing kids to take this and weíre going to see rioting in the streets thatíll make last summer look like playtime. And lastly knock it off the whole guilt crap. Science proves that all BS now anyway. I donít believe for a second you donít know that either. I just think you donít care. If its good for you itís good for everyone else even if itís forced upon them. Thatís the way people like you think.
Here you go again, smacking your head against the same wall. What you "know" above is wrong. And Israel is learning, just like the open minded Americans are:

"But Israel has a young population, with many under the eligible age for vaccination, and about 1.1 million eligible Israelis, largely between the ages of 12 and 20, have declined to take even one dose of the vaccine.

That means only 58% of Israel's total citizenry is fully vaccinated. Experts say that's not nearly high enough.

"We have a very large fraction of our population who are paying the price for a small fraction of the population who did not go to get the vaccine," said Eran Segal of the Weizmann Institute of Science, who advises the Israeli government on COVID-19."

"On Israel's doorstep, the vaccination rate is much lower in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Only around 8% of Palestinians have been fully vaccinated."

"3. If you get infected, being vaccinated helps.

The good news is that among Israel's serious infections on Thursday of this week, according to Health Ministry data, the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category, and the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people in the under-60 crowd (3.2 per 100,000) was a little more than double the rate among vaccinated people in that age bracket."

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...ases-heres-why
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      09-26-2021, 08:22 AM   #41
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I had a choice, get vaccinated or lose my job. So I got vaccinated. I had Covid in November last year, yet my employer, actually our clients that require vaccines, would not accept "natural immunity" for even a temporary reason. That said, I would have likely gotten the vaccine at some point.

Couple other points I'd like to make... although we don't want to make this political, may of the reasons are political. The SAME people that are calling people "unAmerican" for not getting the vaccine are the same people who less than a year ago said that they wouldn't get the vaccine ... "because Trump". People of color who are not getting the vaccine have an understandable aversion due to historic experiments. We've done this to ourselves

Those people I know that are not vaccinated aren't "Anti-Vaccine" they're pro-choice vaccine. Most understand the risk/reward and have chosen based off that. I have some family members (not in my immediate family) that are not vaccinated. One member has been diagnosed with Guillian Barre' Syndrome after vaccination... It has been linked to the J&J vaccine




Quote:
Originally Posted by Maitre_Absolut View Post
If you refuse the vaccine, you should not be eligible for treatment if you get it. Simple as that. But we all now when shit hits the fan then the science is real lol
but I thought healthcare was a right????
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      09-26-2021, 08:37 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Joe T View Post
I had a choice, get vaccinated or lose my job. So I got vaccinated. I had Covid in November last year, yet my employer, actually our clients that require vaccines, would not accept "natural immunity" for even a temporary reason. That said, I would have likely gotten the vaccine at some point.

Couple other points I'd like to make... although we don't want to make this political, may of the reasons are political. The SAME people that are calling people "unAmerican" for not getting the vaccine are the same people who less than a year ago said that they wouldn't get the vaccine ... "because Trump". People of color who are not getting the vaccine have an understandable aversion due to historic experiments. We've done this to ourselves

Those people I know that are not vaccinated aren't "Anti-Vaccine" they're pro-choice vaccine. Most understand the risk/reward and have chosen based off that. I have some family members (not in my immediate family) that are not vaccinated. One member has been diagnosed with Guillian Barre' Syndrome after vaccination... It has been linked to the J&J vaccine






but I thought healthcare was a right????
Your employer is incredibly wrong. Studies all show having had Covid previously is much more powerful immunity than the vaccine as it is with every other freaking disease. Theyíve always known that. If you actually had the measles thatís better then getting the vaccination for it. So as you pointed out this is much more than people believing the vaccination is good. This is all about control. It has to be now that we know all the science behind everything and have known most of it for a long time anyway.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/d...ural-immunity/
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      09-26-2021, 08:41 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe T View Post
....
Those people I know that are not vaccinated aren't "Anti-Vaccine" they're pro-choice vaccine. Most understand the risk/reward and have chosen based off that. I have some family members (not in my immediate family) that are not vaccinated. One member has been diagnosed with Guillian Barre' Syndrome after vaccination... It has been linked to the J&J vaccine

but I thought healthcare was a right????
"So, itís not surprising that people have questions upon hearing that about 100 suspected cases of GBS have been identified among 12.8 million people who have received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine."
"The agency made it clear that there is still more learn. ďAlthough the available evidence suggests an association between the Janssen [Johnson & Johnson] vaccine and increased risk of GBS,Ē the FDA said in a statement, ďit is insufficient to establish a causal relationship
"And there have been no similar reports of GBS in people who have had the Pfizer or Moderna mRNA two-dose vaccines, which use a different technology than Johnson & Johnsonís vaccine."


https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/co...barre-syndrome
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      09-26-2021, 08:44 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
True that in medical terms "bed shortage" usually does not mean they don't have the furniture, but last year's vent shortage shows that it isn't JUST staffing. I see little direct reporting about just how hard hospitals are getting hit, and from every side - financially underwater, losing staff to covid deaths, workers leaving b/c afraid of getting it, and antivax walkoffs; all while operating in the kind of legal 'gray area' that has them afraid of tons of expensive lawsuits. I think that we are very close to some form of either economic cost-sharing (making unvaxxed people pay out of pocket for those loooong ICU stays) or flat out restrictions (hospitals refusing to admit unvaxxed). Anything else and the entire system is going to collapse, and America is not going to be willing to lose its entire healthcare system. Also in the background is that a lot of healthcare is run by businessmen, and they are already searching out options to get while the getting is good; If we aren't careful we will see a slew of bankruptcy/closeouts that will leave us holding the bag while these companies fold up their tent and move over into other industries.
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Goofing... but in this over-saturated PC world we've been newly introduced to, where we can't even call people by their birth-pronouns, we still use the terms "Businessmen" and "Gunman" in semi-derogatory temperament.

Just sayin'
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