How long to wait before asking for a raise at work?

atmosphericM · 08-14-2018, 12:45 PM

What's up everyone?
First OT thread here, go easy on me.

So I am a young(ish) guy and am working in what I consider my first "professional" role after graduating college. That said, I'm not as young as others in my 'life-position' because I took time off while in college to (try to) figure out what the heck to do with my life. I say it's my first "real job" but it isn't, of course - all jobs are real jobs and I respect them all. But this is my first job that isn't "entry level" .. here I basically manage myself and all of my work, and if anything goes wrong it's all on me (and the company will suffer). And that is part of what brings me here today.

How long do you think one should wait before asking for a (significant) raise?

I have a few entry level type jobs under my belt, but nothing I stayed at for long enough to care about a raise. Also, they were all at big corporations, so at least when I was younger, I was a bit intimidated and felt like I always had to 'go with the flow.' Now I'm older, and dammit I want what is mine.

Basically, I came in to this position and was offered the top number in their published salary range for the position. It seemed fair at the time so I agreed. But one of the main reasons that I feel I should be paid more is because I definitely do more than they made it seem like. I basically handle all of the accounting for a mid-sized business. We do in the low millions of revenue per year, and have about 20 employees. Admittedly, I don't do our tax prep, though. So this means A/R, A/P, ledgers, maintain books, prepare reports, research, etc. Here's the thing though, I also do ALL of our IT. Granted, it's not a big company, but when IT needs arise, they actually take a good bit of my time to address. I've always been into computers, which I think helped me get the job, but I've had to do some pretty upper-level stuff (at least in the eyes of a "home IT guy" versus an actual IT professional) such as setting up an entire office network including a commercial-grade firewall, etc. There's also the annoyance of having to help an older woman with her 'email program' etc. on nearly a weekly basis.

Another kicker is that I am making literally half what the guy I replaced was making, and without a doubt I am doing a better job than he was doing. Granted, he was here for 15 years, but still. Oh yeah, and one more thing. My boss is my age, I graduated high-school with him (lol small world), and his dad built/owns the company. This actually makes it even harder for me to ask. Plus, since my manager is young, well honestly he just sucks at managing people. There were many things I disliked about 'corporate life,' but I do miss some of the structure. If I don't bring up a raise, I doubt my boss ever will. He is good at managing the business, but awful at managing employees (IMO!). I've never had any sort of check-up, evaluation, nothing. IMO being a good manager of PEOPLE is a very distinct skill, and one that is over looked most of the time. Just because you're good at your skill, be it accounting, IT, whatever.. doesn't mean you can manage people worth a crap.

Anyway, I've been in the position now for well over a year. After realizing the scope of the IT work I do, not to mention my quality of work with the accounting, I feel like I am a very valuable asset to this company. My co-workers definitely don't realize it, and probably wouldn't even believe it, but for them to out-source the IT I do, it would cost at least 5 grand a year, if not more. But I don't feel valued (in big part due to my manager and his personality). More money can make me care less about that. I'm trying to stay in this position for a couple of years to improve my resume, but I honestly think I could get more going elsewhere. The job market, at least around here, is booming, and I get calls/emails on nearly a weekly basis from head-hunters, etc. That said, the grass is always greener.

Lastly, one good thing about my job, which I'm trying to keep in mind, is that the work load and hours are pretty unbelievable, at least at times. It's accounting, so of course certain times of the month/week I'm super busy, but others I have almost nothing to do at all. Bear in mind though that part of the light work load is due to efficiencies I've personally put in place. Personally, I wouldn't mind more work - but due to the nature of the company, there just isn't anything more to do. I didn't sign up for a part-time job, though, so I expect to be compensated for a full-time position.

I've been researching what others are *supposedly* compensated with, salary wise, in my area.. and I've also been trying to come up with a figure for what I should be paid in addition for the IT work. I get that, at the end of the day, this is just my argument against theirs, and my who knows how my boss feels about the situation (gee, wouldn't that be great.. well I guess here is my chance to find out

), but after putting it off for months, I feel like I must try.

What I am thinking about right now is asking for a 10% raise. This will put me closer in-line with the salary of my peers doing the same accounting work (actually I'll still be under the average). Then I will ask for a 3% COLA for the year I've been here so far. And then, in my mind (and I'll mention it if need be) I offset the IT work I do with the fact that I don't have a super busy schedule. I know that 13% is a big raise, but I honestly think it's fair. I feel that it is rare to have someone with the skill-set to tackle two very different roles at once. I also plan to assure my manager that this 10% won't be a yearly thing, just this once.

I do a lot for this company. And if I left, there is no doubt in my mind that they'd have a very hard, eye-opening experience. I'm a pretty smart guy (sorry, I hate to 'brag') and came in here and self-taught everything. The 'training' I received was a joke, and I know from experience that many people out there wouldn't be able to swing the same. My manager even made the mistake of telling me when he offered me the position that everyone else they interviewed was basically a joke.

Most of our employees are blue collar, the only 'white collar' employees we have are myself, my boss, one other employee that does all the HR and legal work, and then two facility managers. The person I replaced was here forever, the one other office employee has been here forever. I'm in an odd and unique position, at least it seems to me. They don't know how easy they had it with the transition from my predecessor to myself, or maybe they do. Again, I guess there is only one way to find out. But this is my first time lol, so please, any advice? How prepared should I be with charts, etc. containing data for salaries in the area, costs for IT work, etc.. lol?

Thoughts? I appreciate any advice!
Oh, and sorry for the novel!

Thanks!
aM

Never_Enough · 08-14-2018, 12:47 PM

Sounds like you should have asked yesterday so good luck. It's not an easy thing to do, but I think you should.

However, be ready to job hunt b/c they may just start to look for your cheaper replacement now. Companies have zero loyalty toward employees anymore so you shouldn't either.

Yapakanichi · 08-14-2018, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

Sounds like you should have asked yesterday so good luck. It's not an easy thing to do, but I think you should.

However, be ready to job hunt b/c they may just start to look for your cheaper replacement now. Companies have zero loyalty toward employees anymore so you shouldn't either.

What he said....

Uber Commuter · 08-14-2018, 01:04 PM

In my experience; once you accept a job offer you need to show you can handle it for a minimum 6-12 months before you start talking about raises. Prior to that, you are still in the trial period, and you accepted the job at the salary you currently make.

Once you are over a year, and particularly with your situation where the job is significantly more than advertised, then I'd say go for it. When you ask your boss for a raise, start with how much you believe you've helped the company and have specific things you've accomplished ready to be covered if needed. You have a number in mind, but be sure to have what you are willing to accept in your head as well. You may ask for 13% and they may counter with 6%. You need to know if 6% is acceptable or if you need 8% to stay on-board; so you can negotiate clearly.

from the sound of things, it doesn't seem like you'll have much trouble.

Joekerr · 08-14-2018, 01:06 PM

You should summarize the research on one page and have the support to back it up underneath, but don't go into it, just offer to leave them the package if they'd like.

Use the one pager to point out market comparables, based on your enhanced job description, and the average salary for all data points that you can get. Then ask for the average salary, and see where they go from there. Make sure you have a good handle on everything you've done for the company, but I wouldn't hammer them over the head with it - just a high level summary. You don't want to berate them with every little thing. Just - Accounting...this this and this, IT, this this and this.

Presumably, the average salary is even higher than the 13% you are asking for?

atmosphericM · 08-14-2018, 02:21 PM

Thanks for the help so far!

Regarding average salaries, etc. Well, it's hard to say. I've been using Glassdoor, LinkedIn's new salary tool, and google to try to figure out what people are paid in my area. But I realize that it's all self-reporting. So who knows what the "real" average is? I'm doing my best though. Also a hurdle is job titles. I think the job title that they advertised my job under was "accounting clerk." LOL ok. A month or so in I realized that my counterparts here were all "managers" so I adopted the title in my email signature and business card, and haven't heard any complaints. I do exactly what they do but obviously in the scope of my skills. It's just a title though, and I don't really care, but when trying to find salaries in my area, I'm going by what a title would actually DO, compared to what I do, not simply on what my manager thinks I do and therefore classifies me as. Hope that makes sense..

Work load aside, accounting managers, or even senior accountants (less than managers) in my area make more in the 120-150% range compared to myself. A basic, entry level accountant makes about what I make. Again, this is why I feel like my 13% ask, while significant, is more than fair.

I should mention, part of the situation stems from the fact that I secured this job under the prior unemployment woes. In the year+ since I've started, unemployment around the entire country has significantly decreased. Because times were tough, I had to take what I could get, more or less. Now I feel like I should capitalize on the current economic situation while I can.

Thing is, I know how it can be. My last job was in corporate accounting. They literally expected us to work 50+ hours a week most of the time. And they pay about what I make. I'd say I work an average of ~33 hours a week. So let's say my salary should be 140% what it is, but less ~25% for shorted work load. That's still 15%. I think I'm ready! lol

However, my boss said to me when he hired me that "his accounting friend said that this job should only take about 20 hours a week." I'm expecting push-back based upon that. I'm trying to figure out how to deal with it. I mean, if he wants to hire someone part time, that's up to him. I wasn't hired to be a part-time worker. Perhaps they will decide to count their pennies and hire someone else that wants to be lazy and barely work, and will take whatever he/she can get. I suppose we will find out.

King Rudi · 08-14-2018, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

Sounds like you should have asked yesterday so good luck. It's not an easy thing to do, but I think you should.

However, be ready to job hunt b/c they may just start to look for your cheaper replacement now. Companies have zero loyalty toward employees anymore so you shouldn't either.

Agreed. From someone who came from a strong sales background, everything is positioning yourself for the close. Do your research and go to them with a compelling offer and hard facts on how providing you with a raise will save them money compared to hiring someone to do IT work. Present it as a cost savings to them but also have the proverbial sledgehammer behind your back in the event that they take this as a threat. (by this I mean, have an escape route, a second position or option to make money in the event that shit goes south)

Something most people don't consider when going in to these situations is psychology. There is an alpha personality and there is a beta personality. You can not let them feel like they have control over you or that they have "won." A fair compromise is the only success in these scenarios. If they feel that you are trying to "Alpha" them you will get shot down quickly and will lose their respect. In the event that you go in cowardly and hardheartedly ask for a raise, you will get shot down and then viewed in a negative light. Go in there with your balls shiny, have some hard documented, factual numbers of cost savings and negotiate with them. This will earn you respect and potentially put you in a better light with them as they will see you as someone with a spine. As you provide your views as to why you deserve a raise, also mention how you foresee the direction of the company and what part you play in moving the company this direction. Something else that most don't consider is communication. Constantly keep your superiors informed of your current status in projects or job duties. Not in a "look at me" type fashion but as "keeping them informed" type thing. This prevents you from "surprising" them with the discussion. This also lets them know you already deserve the raise as they are informed of what your capabilities are and that you are proactive in getting things accomplished as well as communicating info so that they don't have to ask for it.

Use phrases such as "wouldn't you agree?", "Do you mind to give me your thoughts", etc. and be prepared to overcome any objections they may have. Ask open ended questions. Try to get them to do more talking than having them sit and listen to you. Make an appointment to have this meeting with the decision maker and practice what you will say. Use a mirror when you practice speaking. We all make facial expressions subconsciously that sometimes make us not seem genuine or to be the beta.

The biggest issue to deal with is going to be the rejection. Expect no, but be prepared to deal with the rejection. Don't be afraid to ask why but don't come across as aggressive. Compromise. Ask if there are things that you could work toward or things that you could do differently that would warrant a potential raise in the future. While you're at it, I'd ask for a different title as well.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Joekerr · 08-14-2018, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not_Judy

Agreed. From someone who came from a strong sales background, everything is positioning yourself for the close. Do your research and go to them with a compelling offer and hard facts on how providing you with a raise will save them money compared to hiring someone to do IT work. Present it as a cost savings to them but also have the proverbial sledgehammer behind your back in the event that they take this as a threat. (by this I mean, have an escape route, a second position or option to make money in the event that shit goes south)

Something most people don't consider when going in to these situations is psychology. There is an alpha personality and there is a beta personality. You can not let them feel like they have control over you or that they have "won." A fair compromise is the only success in these scenarios. If they feel that you are trying to "Alpha" them you will get shot down quickly and will lose their respect. In the event that you go in cowardly and hardheartedly ask for a raise, you will get shot down and then viewed in a negative light. Go in there with your balls shiny, have some hard documented, factual numbers of cost savings and negotiate with them. This will earn you respect and potentially put you in a better light with them as they will see you as someone with a spine. As you provide your views as to why you deserve a raise, also mention how you foresee the direction of the company and what part you play in moving the company this direction. Something else that most don't consider is communication. Constantly keep your superiors informed of your current status in projects or job duties. Not in a "look at me" type fashion but as "keeping them informed" type thing. This prevents you from "surprising" them with the discussion. This also lets them know you already deserve the raise as they are informed of what your capabilities are and that you are proactive in getting things accomplished as well as communicating info so that they don't have to ask for it.

Use phrases such as "wouldn't you agree?", "Do you mind to give me your thoughts", etc. and be prepared to overcome any objections they may have. Ask open ended questions. Try to get them to do more talking than having them sit and listen to you. Make an appointment to have this meeting with the decision maker and practice what you will say. Use a mirror when you practice speaking. We all make facial expressions subconsciously that sometimes make us not seem genuine or to be the beta.

The biggest issue to deal with is going to be the rejection. Expect no, but be prepared to deal with the rejection. Don't be afraid to ask why but don't come across as aggressive. Compromise. Ask if there are things that you could work toward or things that you could do differently that would warrant a potential raise in the future. While you're at it, I'd ask for a different title as well.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

100% on the change in job title, based on what OP now said about accounting "clerk" vs. "manager".

You need that title change for your resume when you go looking for prospects. Clerk isn't going to get you far.

I'm an accountant myself, and when I see "clerk", I'm expecting basic bookkeeping, that's it.

If I see manager, I'm expecting a fair bit more from the person, and willing to pay more for it too.

King Rudi · 08-14-2018, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joekerr

100% on the change in job title, based on what OP now said about accounting "clerk" vs. "manager".

You need that title change for your resume when you go looking for prospects. Clerk isn't going to get you far.

I'm an accountant myself, and when I see "clerk", I'm expecting basic bookkeeping, that's it.

If I see manager, I'm expecting a fair bit more from the person, and willing to pay more for it too.

Exactly. It isn't about getting what you want for now. It's like playing pool. Not only are you trying to drop a ball in a pocket on this shot, you want to position yourself for a better shot after. I'm constantly picking up new responsibilities and titles. Things like this look great on resumes.

JohnnyCanuck · 08-14-2018, 03:26 PM

I think it's important that you know exactly what you think would be a fair compromise (eg. a 5% bump now, formal title change, and a program for evaluating future increases?) and what you're prepared to do if the answer's no.

If you're going to have this conversation, you also need to be prepared to walk away if you get nothing out of it. From the way you describe it above, you feel undervalued and are becoming disengaged/disenfranchised. To me, that means staying with the status quo is not a viable option so if you meet rejection or minimal responsiveness ... are you prepared to walk? If not, don't even start the conversation ... nothing worse than a bluff.

By walk, I don't mean storm out of the place and quit. Rather, make your mind up to leave and diligently pursue new opportunities until the right one comes up.

crowtrobot · 08-14-2018, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

Thanks for the help so far!

Regarding average salaries, etc. Well, it's hard to say. I've been using Glassdoor, LinkedIn's new salary tool, and google to try to figure out what people are paid in my area. But I realize that it's all self-reporting. So who knows what the "real" average is? I'm doing my best though. Also a hurdle is job titles. I think the job title that they advertised my job under was "accounting clerk." LOL ok. A month or so in I realized that my counterparts here were all "managers" so I adopted the title in my email signature and business card, and haven't heard any complaints. I do exactly what they do but obviously in the scope of my skills. It's just a title though, and I don't really care, but when trying to find salaries in my area, I'm going by what a title would actually DO, compared to what I do, not simply on what my manager thinks I do and therefore classifies me as. Hope that makes sense..

A useful tool I've used in the past is the data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. They have publicly accessible databases of salary ranges for particular metropolitan areas. It gives you a solid data point to make an argument without the complication of bringing relative salary within the company into the mix.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/tables.htm, click the most recent "Metropolitan and nonmetropolitan area" HTML or XLS table.

King Rudi · 08-14-2018, 03:42 PM

Something else to consider on negotiating. When I worked for a company that wasn't able to provide me with a raise, I negotiated a gas card and a company cell phone. I didn't get money from the company but was able to save over $300/month.

DETRoadster · 08-14-2018, 03:50 PM

As a manager who deals with this sort of thing on a regular occurrence, I can share with you my thoughts from the other side of the desk:

1) Starting off with "I want a raise" is starting off on the wrong foot. You're making it all about you from the get go. If you want your boss' attention in a good way, make it about the company. "I'd like some additional responsibilities and challenges." That at least starts the conversation out in the right direction.

2) I get employees who come in with researched salary data from Indeed, Glassdoor, etc. It goes right in the trash can. I put no value in it. It's too generic and does not speak to the micro economics of my industry, my location, my business. We pay a compensation analyst to review our positions and salaries on an annual basis across other similar sized companies and industries in our area. I'm putting my stock in what he says, not in what someone downloaded from the Internet. Besides, for every graph you show me that shows you are underpaid, I can find one that shows you are overpaid. I think this approach is a waste of time, IMO.

3) Why are you not getting regular performance reviews? They are the basis for any discussion about merit, performance, and compensation changes.

4) Go for a title change, not a salary change. The comp change will follow the title change. Pushing for a title change says "I want to do more". Pushing for a salary change says "I want to make more for doing the same." You said you are doing all sorts of things that are outside the scope of what you were hired for. Push to make those responsibilities official and wrap them up into a title / position change and the comp change will come along with it. If it doesn't follow, they are taking advantage of you and it's time to bail. Take your new title and show it off on your resume as you look for a different job.

5) Think bigger. Think strategic. Think global. Most employees of your tenure and experience are myopically focused on their jobs. One of the things I look for in a star employee who is capable of contributing at a higher level is someone who can take the blinder off and start to see what's going on not just with their role but with their team, their department, the company as a whole. With millions an revenue and 20 employees I guarantee you there's improvements to be made. Process, efficiency, etc. How can you help make the company more efficient, more profitable? Start asking those questions and looking to tackle larger problems; it all goes towards proving you are a key player who needs to be retained and promoted.

EDIT - One thing I forgot to mention: Understanding the company culture and the personal/professional attributes of the management team is critical. Everything I told you above can go right out the window, depending on the company so start with understanding where and who you work for. IS your boss a self-serving jerk who is afraid you will take charge and make him look bad? Does the company prefer to hand out promotions and comp changes based on favoritism and nepotism instead of a rigorous and balanced review process? Does the management team want driven, smart, people who are looking to excel or do they want people to shut the F up, keep their head down, and don't make waves? The advise I gave you above is based on a high-energy, hard driving company that only hires the best and is hell-bent on global domination. If you work for a lackluster company controlled by fear, apathy, and general laziness, well, my advise will likely change.

Give us the low-down on the company culture, the management team, and your direct boss. With that we can gave you much more targeted advice.

JohnnyCanuck · 08-14-2018, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

As a manager who deals with this sort of thing on a regular occurrence, I can share with you my thoughts from the other side of the desk:

1) Starting off with "I want a raise" is starting off on the wrong foot. You're making it all about you from the get go. If you want your boss' attention in a good way, make it about the company. "I'd like some additional responsibilities and challenges." That at least starts the conversation out in the right direction.

2) I get employees who come in with researched salary data from Indeed, Glassdoor, etc. It goes right in the trash can. I put no value in it. It's too generic and does not speak to the micro economics of my industry, my location, my business. We pay a compensation analyst to review our positions and salaries on an annual basis across other similar sized companies and industries in our area. I'm putting my stock in what he says, not in what someone downloaded from the Internet. Besides, for every graph you show me that shows you are underpaid, I can find one that shows you are overpaid. I think this approach is a waste of time, IMO.

3) Why are you not getting regular performance reviews? They are the basis for any discussion about merit, performance, and compensation changes.

4) Go for a title change, not a salary change. The comp change will follow the title change. Pushing for a title change says "I want to do more". Pushing for a salary change says "I want to make more for doing the same." You said you are doing all sorts of things that are outside the scope of what you were hired for. Push to make those responsibilities official and wrap them up into a title / position change and the comp change will come along with it. If it doesn't follow, they are taking advantage of you and it's time to bail. Take your new title and show it off on your resume as you look for a different job.

5) Think bigger. Think strategic. Think global. Most employees of your tenure and experience are myopically focused on their jobs. One of the things I look for in a star employee who is capable of contributing at a higher level is someone who can take the blinder off and start to see what's going on not just with their role but with their team, their department, the company as a whole. With millions an revenue and 20 employees I guarantee you there's improvements to be made. Process, efficiency, etc. How can you help make the company more efficient, more profitable? Start asking those questions and looking to tackle larger problems; it all goes towards proving you are a key player who needs to be retained and promoted.

This is fantastic advice. If you only take away one post from this thread ... this is it.

mxchris727 · 08-14-2018, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

As a manager who deals with this sort of thing on a regular occurrence, I can share with you my thoughts from the other side of the desk:

1) Starting off with "I want a raise" is starting off on the wrong foot. You're making it all about you from the get go. If you want your boss' attention in a good way, make it about the company. "I'd like some additional responsibilities and challenges." That at least starts the conversation out in the right direction.

2) I get employees who come in with researched salary data from Indeed, Glassdoor, etc. It goes right in the trash can. I put no value in it. It's too generic and does not speak to the micro economics of my industry, my location, my business. We pay a compensation analyst to review our positions and salaries on an annual basis across other similar sized companies and industries in our area. I'm putting my stock in what he says, not in what someone downloaded from the Internet. Besides, for every graph you show me that shows you are underpaid, I can find one that shows you are overpaid. I think this approach is a waste of time, IMO.

3) Why are you not getting regular performance reviews? They are the basis for any discussion about merit, performance, and compensation changes.

4) Go for a title change, not a salary change. The comp change will follow the title change. Pushing for a title change says "I want to do more". Pushing for a salary change says "I want to make more for doing the same." You said you are doing all sorts of things that are outside the scope of what you were hired for. Push to make those responsibilities official and wrap them up into a title / position change and the comp change will come along with it. If it doesn't follow, they are taking advantage of you and it's time to bail. Take your new title and show it off on your resume as you look for a different job.

5) Think bigger. Think strategic. Think global. Most employees of your tenure and experience are myopically focused on their jobs. One of the things I look for in a star employee who is capable of contributing at a higher level is someone who can take the blinder off and start to see what's going on not just with their role but with their team, their department, the company as a whole. With millions an revenue and 20 employees I guarantee you there's improvements to be made. Process, efficiency, etc. How can you help make the company more efficient, more profitable? Start asking those questions and looking to tackle larger problems; it all goes towards proving you are a key player who needs to be retained and promoted.

This! It was not until I started becoming involved with my company's town halls consisting of the steering committee and leadership did I see change. I started piecing together the greater vision and applying it to my daily work and client relationships. Then, adding this with metrics to the goals on my performance meetings got the ball rolling. I was quickly promoted out of cycle and a handsome raise came with it.

DETRoadster · 08-14-2018, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mxchris727

This! It was not until I started becoming involved with my company's town halls consisting of the steering committee and leadership did I see change. I started piecing together the greater vision and applying it to my daily work and client relationships. Then, adding this with metrics to the goals on my performance meetings got the ball rolling. I was quickly promoted out of cycle and a handsome raise came with it.

You took everything I said and distilled down to 3 succinct sentences. Can I hire you?!

OP, take note. Valuable lesson here.

King Rudi · 08-14-2018, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

As a manager who deals with this sort of thing on a regular occurrence, I can share with you my thoughts from the other side of the desk:

1) Starting off with "I want a raise" is starting off on the wrong foot. You're making it all about you from the get go. If you want your boss' attention in a good way, make it about the company. "I'd like some additional responsibilities and challenges." That at least starts the conversation out in the right direction.

2) I get employees who come in with researched salary data from Indeed, Glassdoor, etc. It goes right in the trash can. I put no value in it. It's too generic and does not speak to the micro economics of my industry, my location, my business. We pay a compensation analyst to review our positions and salaries on an annual basis across other similar sized companies and industries in our area. I'm putting my stock in what he says, not in what someone downloaded from the Internet. Besides, for every graph you show me that shows you are underpaid, I can find one that shows you are overpaid. I think this approach is a waste of time, IMO.

3) Why are you not getting regular performance reviews? They are the basis for any discussion about merit, performance, and compensation changes.

4) Go for a title change, not a salary change. The comp change will follow the title change. Pushing for a title change says "I want to do more". Pushing for a salary change says "I want to make more for doing the same." You said you are doing all sorts of things that are outside the scope of what you were hired for. Push to make those responsibilities official and wrap them up into a title / position change and the comp change will come along with it. If it doesn't follow, they are taking advantage of you and it's time to bail. Take your new title and show it off on your resume as you look for a different job.

5) Think bigger. Think strategic. Think global. Most employees of your tenure and experience are myopically focused on their jobs. One of the things I look for in a star employee who is capable of contributing at a higher level is someone who can take the blinder off and start to see what's going on not just with their role but with their team, their department, the company as a whole. With millions an revenue and 20 employees I guarantee you there's improvements to be made. Process, efficiency, etc. How can you help make the company more efficient, more profitable? Start asking those questions and looking to tackle larger problems; it all goes towards proving you are a key player who needs to be retained and promoted.

EDIT - One thing I forgot to mention: Understanding the company culture and the personal/professional attributes of the management team is critical. Everything I told you above can go right out the window, depending on the company so start with understanding where and who you work for. IS your boss a self-serving jerk who is afraid you will take charge and make him look bad? Does the company prefer to hand out promotions and comp changes based on favoritism and nepotism instead of a rigorous and balanced review process? Does the management team want driven, smart, people who are looking to excel or do they want people to shut the F up, keep their head down, and don't make waves? The advise I gave you above is based on a high-energy, hard driving company that only hires the best and is hell-bent on global domination. If you work for a lackluster company controlled by fear, apathy, and general laziness, well, my advise will likely change.

Give us the low-down on the company culture, the management team, and your direct boss. With that we can gave you much more targeted advice.

Shit....I want to thank you for this.

MKSixer · 08-14-2018, 06:44 PM

Great advice here from everyone. I'll just add a few bulleted points.

-Procure your current Job description.

-Develop your list of accomplishments since you started, especially outside of your defined role.

-Create hybridized job description of the two aforementioned items with an analysis of how it would increase current efficiencies and the potential impact across the organization.

-Research similar roles and compensation.

-Create a PLAN to increase your compensation over a period of say, 2-3 years to your target level. It shows your commitment to the company as well as the fact that you aren't thinking about your paycheck, alone.

-Have a fallback position.

TSXforme · 08-14-2018, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Great advice here from everyone. I'll just add a few bulleted points.

-Procure your current Job description.

-Develop your list of accomplishments since you started, especially outside of your defined role.

-Create hybridized job description of the two aforementioned items with an analysis of how it would increase current efficiencies and the potential impact across the organization.

-Research similar roles and compensation.

-Create a PLAN to increase your compensation over a period of say, 2-3 years to your target level. It shows your commitment to the company as well as the fact that you aren't thinking about your paycheck, alone.

-Have a fallback position.

I also will add that if you like your current place of employment, play the long game. Go ask to see if your current place of employment will pay for additional training that will benefit both you and make you more valuable to the company. You mentioned tax work, so additional tax courses if you want to focus on being an accountant. Obviously look for some additional IT training if you want to be an IT guy.

The good thing with the additional knowledge/skills is that you have these for life if your things do not work with your current place of employment....on the company's dime!

stbm5 · 08-14-2018, 10:10 PM

id recommend finding a competing offer and then seeing if they will exceed it to keep you.

M_Six · 08-14-2018, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stbm5

id recommend finding a competing offer and then seeing if they will exceed it to keep you.

I did this once and got a 50% better offer. When I went back to my boss to break the news, he said, "I can match that. Why don't you stay here?"

All I could think about later was, "WTF?? If you are willing to pay me 50% more just to keep me, why didn't you pay me this already? I wouldn't have gone looking."

I started counting the years I worked for relative peanuts...

On a side note, surprisingly good advice in this thread. Not the usual OT thread drift. I'm impressed.

BayMoWe335 · 08-14-2018, 10:46 PM

Cliff’s?

08-14-2018, 12:45 PM	#1
atmosphericM Basic Bimmer 523 Rep 930 Posts Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: B'ham iTrader: (1) Garage List 2013 BMW 328i Coupé ... [10.00]	How long to wait before asking for a raise at work? What's up everyone? First OT thread here, go easy on me. So I am a young(ish) guy and am working in what I consider my first "professional" role after graduating college. That said, I'm not as young as others in my 'life-position' because I took time off while in college to (try to) figure out what the heck to do with my life. I say it's my first "real job" but it isn't, of course - all jobs are real jobs and I respect them all. But this is my first job that isn't "entry level" .. here I basically manage myself and all of my work, and if anything goes wrong it's all on me (and the company will suffer). And that is part of what brings me here today. How long do you think one should wait before asking for a (significant) raise? I have a few entry level type jobs under my belt, but nothing I stayed at for long enough to care about a raise. Also, they were all at big corporations, so at least when I was younger, I was a bit intimidated and felt like I always had to 'go with the flow.' Now I'm older, and dammit I want what is mine. Basically, I came in to this position and was offered the top number in their published salary range for the position. It seemed fair at the time so I agreed. But one of the main reasons that I feel I should be paid more is because I definitely do more than they made it seem like. I basically handle all of the accounting for a mid-sized business. We do in the low millions of revenue per year, and have about 20 employees. Admittedly, I don't do our tax prep, though. So this means A/R, A/P, ledgers, maintain books, prepare reports, research, etc. Here's the thing though, I also do ALL of our IT. Granted, it's not a big company, but when IT needs arise, they actually take a good bit of my time to address. I've always been into computers, which I think helped me get the job, but I've had to do some pretty upper-level stuff (at least in the eyes of a "home IT guy" versus an actual IT professional) such as setting up an entire office network including a commercial-grade firewall, etc. There's also the annoyance of having to help an older woman with her 'email program' etc. on nearly a weekly basis. Another kicker is that I am making literally half what the guy I replaced was making, and without a doubt I am doing a better job than he was doing. Granted, he was here for 15 years, but still. Oh yeah, and one more thing. My boss is my age, I graduated high-school with him (lol small world), and his dad built/owns the company. This actually makes it even harder for me to ask. Plus, since my manager is young, well honestly he just sucks at managing people. There were many things I disliked about 'corporate life,' but I do miss some of the structure. If I don't bring up a raise, I doubt my boss ever will. He is good at managing the business, but awful at managing employees (IMO!). I've never had any sort of check-up, evaluation, nothing. IMO being a good manager of PEOPLE is a very distinct skill, and one that is over looked most of the time. Just because you're good at your skill, be it accounting, IT, whatever.. doesn't mean you can manage people worth a crap. Anyway, I've been in the position now for well over a year. After realizing the scope of the IT work I do, not to mention my quality of work with the accounting, I feel like I am a very valuable asset to this company. My co-workers definitely don't realize it, and probably wouldn't even believe it, but for them to out-source the IT I do, it would cost at least 5 grand a year, if not more. But I don't feel valued (in big part due to my manager and his personality). More money can make me care less about that. I'm trying to stay in this position for a couple of years to improve my resume, but I honestly think I could get more going elsewhere. The job market, at least around here, is booming, and I get calls/emails on nearly a weekly basis from head-hunters, etc. That said, the grass is always greener. Lastly, one good thing about my job, which I'm trying to keep in mind, is that the work load and hours are pretty unbelievable, at least at times. It's accounting, so of course certain times of the month/week I'm super busy, but others I have almost nothing to do at all. Bear in mind though that part of the light work load is due to efficiencies I've personally put in place. Personally, I wouldn't mind more work - but due to the nature of the company, there just isn't anything more to do. I didn't sign up for a part-time job, though, so I expect to be compensated for a full-time position. I've been researching what others are supposedly compensated with, salary wise, in my area.. and I've also been trying to come up with a figure for what I should be paid in addition for the IT work. I get that, at the end of the day, this is just my argument against theirs, and my who knows how my boss feels about the situation (gee, wouldn't that be great.. well I guess here is my chance to find out ), but after putting it off for months, I feel like I must try. What I am thinking about right now is asking for a 10% raise. This will put me closer in-line with the salary of my peers doing the same accounting work (actually I'll still be under the average). Then I will ask for a 3% COLA for the year I've been here so far. And then, in my mind (and I'll mention it if need be) I offset the IT work I do with the fact that I don't have a super busy schedule. I know that 13% is a big raise, but I honestly think it's fair. I feel that it is rare to have someone with the skill-set to tackle two very different roles at once. I also plan to assure my manager that this 10% won't be a yearly thing, just this once. I do a lot for this company. And if I left, there is no doubt in my mind that they'd have a very hard, eye-opening experience. I'm a pretty smart guy (sorry, I hate to 'brag') and came in here and self-taught everything. The 'training' I received was a joke, and I know from experience that many people out there wouldn't be able to swing the same. My manager even made the mistake of telling me when he offered me the position that everyone else they interviewed was basically a joke. Most of our employees are blue collar, the only 'white collar' employees we have are myself, my boss, one other employee that does all the HR and legal work, and then two facility managers. The person I replaced was here forever, the one other office employee has been here forever. I'm in an odd and unique position, at least it seems to me. They don't know how easy they had it with the transition from my predecessor to myself, or maybe they do. Again, I guess there is only one way to find out. But this is my first time lol, so please, any advice? How prepared should I be with charts, etc. containing data for salaries in the area, costs for IT work, etc.. lol? Thoughts? I appreciate any advice! Oh, and sorry for the novel! Thanks! aM __________________ Black Sapphire 328i ///M Sport Coupé Save the Manuals! Last edited by atmosphericM; 08-14-2018 at 12:51 PM..
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08-14-2018, 12:47 PM	#2
Never_Enough Banned 2225 Rep 2,476 Posts Drives: Satan's Chariot 2.0 Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: PA iTrader: (6) Garage List 2018 Charger Hellcat [0.00]	Sounds like you should have asked yesterday so good luck. It's not an easy thing to do, but I think you should. However, be ready to job hunt b/c they may just start to look for your cheaper replacement now. Companies have zero loyalty toward employees anymore so you shouldn't either.
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08-14-2018, 01:04 PM	#4
Uber Commuter Lieutenant 717 Rep 474 Posts Drives: 2014 328D xDrive Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Maryland iTrader: (0) Garage List 2014 BMW 328d xDrive [0.00]	In my experience; once you accept a job offer you need to show you can handle it for a minimum 6-12 months before you start talking about raises. Prior to that, you are still in the trial period, and you accepted the job at the salary you currently make. Once you are over a year, and particularly with your situation where the job is significantly more than advertised, then I'd say go for it. When you ask your boss for a raise, start with how much you believe you've helped the company and have specific things you've accomplished ready to be covered if needed. You have a number in mind, but be sure to have what you are willing to accept in your head as well. You may ask for 13% and they may counter with 6%. You need to know if 6% is acceptable or if you need 8% to stay on-board; so you can negotiate clearly. from the sound of things, it doesn't seem like you'll have much trouble.
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08-14-2018, 01:06 PM	#5
Joekerr Banned 7922 Rep 1,923 Posts Drives: 2017 Audi S6 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Toronto, ON iTrader: (0)	You should summarize the research on one page and have the support to back it up underneath, but don't go into it, just offer to leave them the package if they'd like. Use the one pager to point out market comparables, based on your enhanced job description, and the average salary for all data points that you can get. Then ask for the average salary, and see where they go from there. Make sure you have a good handle on everything you've done for the company, but I wouldn't hammer them over the head with it - just a high level summary. You don't want to berate them with every little thing. Just - Accounting...this this and this, IT, this this and this. Presumably, the average salary is even higher than the 13% you are asking for?
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08-14-2018, 02:21 PM	#6
atmosphericM Basic Bimmer 523 Rep 930 Posts Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: B'ham iTrader: (1) Garage List 2013 BMW 328i Coupé ... [10.00]	Thanks for the help so far! Regarding average salaries, etc. Well, it's hard to say. I've been using Glassdoor, LinkedIn's new salary tool, and google to try to figure out what people are paid in my area. But I realize that it's all self-reporting. So who knows what the "real" average is? I'm doing my best though. Also a hurdle is job titles. I think the job title that they advertised my job under was "accounting clerk." LOL ok. A month or so in I realized that my counterparts here were all "managers" so I adopted the title in my email signature and business card, and haven't heard any complaints. I do exactly what they do but obviously in the scope of my skills. It's just a title though, and I don't really care, but when trying to find salaries in my area, I'm going by what a title would actually DO, compared to what I do, not simply on what my manager thinks I do and therefore classifies me as. Hope that makes sense.. Work load aside, accounting managers, or even senior accountants (less than managers) in my area make more in the 120-150% range compared to myself. A basic, entry level accountant makes about what I make. Again, this is why I feel like my 13% ask, while significant, is more than fair. I should mention, part of the situation stems from the fact that I secured this job under the prior unemployment woes. In the year+ since I've started, unemployment around the entire country has significantly decreased. Because times were tough, I had to take what I could get, more or less. Now I feel like I should capitalize on the current economic situation while I can. Thing is, I know how it can be. My last job was in corporate accounting. They literally expected us to work 50+ hours a week most of the time. And they pay about what I make. I'd say I work an average of ~33 hours a week. So let's say my salary should be 140% what it is, but less ~25% for shorted work load. That's still 15%. I think I'm ready! lol However, my boss said to me when he hired me that "his accounting friend said that this job should only take about 20 hours a week." I'm expecting push-back based upon that. I'm trying to figure out how to deal with it. I mean, if he wants to hire someone part time, that's up to him. I wasn't hired to be a part-time worker. Perhaps they will decide to count their pennies and hire someone else that wants to be lazy and barely work, and will take whatever he/she can get. I suppose we will find out. __________________ Black Sapphire 328i ///M Sport Coupé Save the Manuals! Last edited by atmosphericM; 08-14-2018 at 02:28 PM..
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08-14-2018, 03:26 PM	#10
JohnnyCanuck Major 1257 Rep 1,352 Posts Drives: 2018 Audi RS3 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Vancouver iTrader: (1)	I think it's important that you know exactly what you think would be a fair compromise (eg. a 5% bump now, formal title change, and a program for evaluating future increases?) and what you're prepared to do if the answer's no. If you're going to have this conversation, you also need to be prepared to walk away if you get nothing out of it. From the way you describe it above, you feel undervalued and are becoming disengaged/disenfranchised. To me, that means staying with the status quo is not a viable option so if you meet rejection or minimal responsiveness ... are you prepared to walk? If not, don't even start the conversation ... nothing worse than a bluff. By walk, I don't mean storm out of the place and quit. Rather, make your mind up to leave and diligently pursue new opportunities until the right one comes up.
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08-14-2018, 03:42 PM	#12
King Rudi Lieutenant Colonel 13071 Rep 1,965 Posts Drives: Meat Suit Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Planet Earth iTrader: (0)	Something else to consider on negotiating. When I worked for a company that wasn't able to provide me with a raise, I negotiated a gas card and a company cell phone. I didn't get money from the company but was able to save over $300/month.
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08-14-2018, 03:50 PM	#13
DETRoadster Space Force - 4 Star General 11498 Rep 3,265 Posts Drives: M2 MG 6MT / Moto Guzzi V7 Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Seattle iTrader: (1)	As a manager who deals with this sort of thing on a regular occurrence, I can share with you my thoughts from the other side of the desk: 1) Starting off with "I want a raise" is starting off on the wrong foot. You're making it all about you from the get go. If you want your boss' attention in a good way, make it about the company. "I'd like some additional responsibilities and challenges." That at least starts the conversation out in the right direction. 2) I get employees who come in with researched salary data from Indeed, Glassdoor, etc. It goes right in the trash can. I put no value in it. It's too generic and does not speak to the micro economics of my industry, my location, my business. We pay a compensation analyst to review our positions and salaries on an annual basis across other similar sized companies and industries in our area. I'm putting my stock in what he says, not in what someone downloaded from the Internet. Besides, for every graph you show me that shows you are underpaid, I can find one that shows you are overpaid. I think this approach is a waste of time, IMO. 3) Why are you not getting regular performance reviews? They are the basis for any discussion about merit, performance, and compensation changes. 4) Go for a title change, not a salary change. The comp change will follow the title change. Pushing for a title change says "I want to do more". Pushing for a salary change says "I want to make more for doing the same." You said you are doing all sorts of things that are outside the scope of what you were hired for. Push to make those responsibilities official and wrap them up into a title / position change and the comp change will come along with it. If it doesn't follow, they are taking advantage of you and it's time to bail. Take your new title and show it off on your resume as you look for a different job. 5) Think bigger. Think strategic. Think global. Most employees of your tenure and experience are myopically focused on their jobs. One of the things I look for in a star employee who is capable of contributing at a higher level is someone who can take the blinder off and start to see what's going on not just with their role but with their team, their department, the company as a whole. With millions an revenue and 20 employees I guarantee you there's improvements to be made. Process, efficiency, etc. How can you help make the company more efficient, more profitable? Start asking those questions and looking to tackle larger problems; it all goes towards proving you are a key player who needs to be retained and promoted. EDIT - One thing I forgot to mention: Understanding the company culture and the personal/professional attributes of the management team is critical. Everything I told you above can go right out the window, depending on the company so start with understanding where and who you work for. IS your boss a self-serving jerk who is afraid you will take charge and make him look bad? Does the company prefer to hand out promotions and comp changes based on favoritism and nepotism instead of a rigorous and balanced review process? Does the management team want driven, smart, people who are looking to excel or do they want people to shut the F up, keep their head down, and don't make waves? The advise I gave you above is based on a high-energy, hard driving company that only hires the best and is hell-bent on global domination. If you work for a lackluster company controlled by fear, apathy, and general laziness, well, my advise will likely change. Give us the low-down on the company culture, the management team, and your direct boss. With that we can gave you much more targeted advice. Last edited by DETRoadster; 08-14-2018 at 04:20 PM..
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08-14-2018, 06:44 PM	#18
MKSixer Lieutenant General 34122 Rep 11,637 Posts Drives: 2015 BMW i8, E63 M6, 328d Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Southeast United States iTrader: (0) Garage List 2016 M4 GTS (Allotted) [0.00] 2013 BMW 328d [0.00] 2007 BMW M6 [10.00] 2015 BMW i8 [10.00]	Great advice here from everyone. I'll just add a few bulleted points. -Procure your current Job description. -Develop your list of accomplishments since you started, especially outside of your defined role. -Create hybridized job description of the two aforementioned items with an analysis of how it would increase current efficiencies and the potential impact across the organization. -Research similar roles and compensation. -Create a PLAN to increase your compensation over a period of say, 2-3 years to your target level. It shows your commitment to the company as well as the fact that you aren't thinking about your paycheck, alone. -Have a fallback position. __________________ Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond... Sir 7ewis, 7X FIA Formula One World Championship, World Driving Champion. 100 Wins. 101 Pole Positions. 54 Fastest Laps. Actual Rain Master. Leave me to it, Bono. One Race Win in each of his 15 years in F1. Most Laps Led in Formula One. The Centurion.
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08-14-2018, 10:10 PM	#20
stbm5 Lieutenant 277 Rep 491 Posts Drives: 2018 M5 DG Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: 72211 iTrader: (0)	id recommend finding a competing offer and then seeing if they will exceed it to keep you.
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08-14-2018, 10:46 PM	#22
BayMoWe335 Colonel 1200 Rep 2,132 Posts Drives: 2010 E92 335i 6MT Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: US iTrader: (0)	Cliff’s?
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