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      03-17-2019, 09:40 AM   #67
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      03-17-2019, 10:11 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Eau_Rouge111 View Post
Haha true. I look at it like this...when I drive my Z4MC...rod bearings are in the back of my mind at all times...so...I make sure to warm up the car properly, have the oil changed well b4 mfg recommended intervals/just generally be aware of the car and it's maintenance. Owning both an AMG and an M...I'll take the M all day long! BUT...God damn rod bearings!! All E46/60/85/86/90/92M owners I'm sure can relate!
You forgot E36M...

I just didnt realize those also suffered from rod bearings as didn't the s54 in the E36M rev slightly lower? 7600 rpm redline?? But regardless...I stand corrected...E36M as well
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      03-17-2019, 12:01 PM   #69
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Maybe they wouldn't need to platform share if they didn't make 7 SUVs. All the money is spent on bumper designs, market research and advertising. Both companies are putting out worse and worse products. Reliability is tanking for both in recent years and neither of the brands has a personality to differentiate themselves. This joint venture is the final sign that they really don't care anymore. All car companies were started by engineers that wanted to make something unique or better. None of that spirit exists now; it's just stare holders thinking short term hype to make the price jump, and accountants as ceos who like to make things look good on paper to meet their next bonus checkpoint. Glad I drive an older bmw.
Not sure I truly understand your post. I'm not completely disagreeing with you but the reason why there are 7 SUV's is because there is nothing else BMW could realistically do to distribute costs while still making a profit. A stronger argument could be made that without those 7 SUV's, BMW would be in far worst shape.

As for BMW and Mercedes making worse cars, that I 100% disagree. Worse for who? Maybe for you but without focusing on one thing or aspect, the F3X, overall, was better than the E9X and the G20 looks to be better than the F3X. As for Mercedes, their line up has been as good as I could remember. BMW might make "worse" cars for the "enthusiast" (depending on who you ask), but the enthusiast doesn't pay the bills.

To be perfectly honest, I'm starting to get tired of this "enthusiast" argument. Not directing that at you, but in general. If you go search dealer inventory, tell me how many F3X 40i are still on the lot and then try to find out how many "enthusiasts" are getting a G20 330i instead.
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      03-17-2019, 12:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
Not sure I truly understand your post. I'm not completely disagreeing with you but the reason why there are 7 SUV's is because there is nothing else BMW could realistically do to distribute costs while still making a profit. A stronger argument could be made that without those 7 SUV's, BMW would be in far worst shape.

As for BMW and Mercedes making worse cars, that I 100% disagree. Worse for who? Maybe for you but without focusing on one thing or aspect, the F3X, overall, was better than the E9X and the G20 looks to be better than the F3X. As for Mercedes, their line up has been as good as I could remember. BMW might make "worse" cars for the "enthusiast" (depending on who you ask), but the enthusiast doesn't pay the bills.

To be perfectly honest, I'm starting to get tired of this "enthusiast" argument. Not directing that at you, but in general. If you go search dealer inventory, tell me how many F3X 40i are still on the lot and then try to find out how many "enthusiasts" are getting a G20 330i instead.
Well, having been around the BMW brand since the late 1970s, through the 1980s YUPPIES era, the steady state 1990s, and into the 2000s, I can say, for the 3 -Series, the F3X marked a change in the BMW brand. The F30 lost "Benchmark" status. BMW left its DNA out of the chassis. To us enthusiasts, a sport sedan has great handling and chassis dynamics along with 3 pedals. The G20 doesn't offer a manual. BMW has ALWAYS offered a manual transmission in the 3-Series. The company is very profitable, it could easily afford a manual offering with both the 6 cylinder and the 4 cylinder. There is no reason for BMW to forget its enthusiast base while it caters to soccer mom's. Every other manufacturer makes a 4-cylinder automatic. BMW used to be different. While most buyers wouldn't know a straight-six from a V6, the people from whom BMW earned its reputation (and why most people covet the Roundel), deserve a non-M sport sedan offering from BMW.
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      03-17-2019, 01:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
Not sure I truly understand your post. I'm not completely disagreeing with you but the reason why there are 7 SUV's is because there is nothing else BMW could realistically do to distribute costs while still making a profit. A stronger argument could be made that without those 7 SUV's, BMW would be in far worst shape.

As for BMW and Mercedes making worse cars, that I 100% disagree. Worse for who? Maybe for you but without focusing on one thing or aspect, the F3X, overall, was better than the E9X and the G20 looks to be better than the F3X. As for Mercedes, their line up has been as good as I could remember. BMW might make "worse" cars for the "enthusiast" (depending on who you ask), but the enthusiast doesn't pay the bills.

To be perfectly honest, I'm starting to get tired of this "enthusiast" argument. Not directing that at you, but in general. If you go search dealer inventory, tell me how many F3X 40i are still on the lot and then try to find out how many "enthusiasts" are getting a G20 330i instead.
Well, having been around the BMW brand since the late 1970s, through the 1980s YUPPIES era, the steady state 1990s, and into the 2000s, I can say, for the 3 -Series, the F3X marked a change in the BMW brand. The F30 lost "Benchmark" status. BMW left its DNA out of the chassis. To us enthusiasts, a sport sedan has great handling and chassis dynamics along with 3 pedals. The G20 doesn't offer a manual. BMW has ALWAYS offered a manual transmission in the 3-Series. The company is very profitable, it could easily afford a manual offering with both the 6 cylinder and the 4 cylinder. There is no reason for BMW to forget its enthusiast base while it caters to soccer mom's. Every other manufacturer makes a 4-cylinder automatic. BMW used to be different. While most buyers wouldn't know a straight-six from a V6, the people from whom BMW earned its reputation (and why most people covet the Roundel), deserve a non-M sport sedan offering from BMW.
That maybe it, but so called enthusiasts are part of an immense minority of buyers and they seem to only exist in internet message boards as this one.

That ship sailed a long time ago. BMW builds vehicles where there is market demand. People want smooth ride, gizmos galore, flaccid steering, etc, etc and that is exactly what they are delivering.

The enthusiast has to step to a more expensive model or a M-Car.

As much as some here long for the days of manual transmissions, hydraulic power steering, station wagons, interiors fitted with the bare necessities for driving, those days are gone. Market realities today are vastly different of what they were 20 years ago. The concept of automobile ownership and user interaction is drastically changing. Mobility in the next 20-30 years could possible be mostly automation and likely will not have to own cars anymore. Heck even younger generations are not as vested into car ownership as us old timers did back in our day.

Look how the Cadillac ATS flopped in the marketplace. By all accounts it was the perfect enthusiast tuned and oriented sports sedan. Small, balanced, RWD, manual transmission.... no one cared!! GM will axe it if it hasn't already.
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      03-17-2019, 01:43 PM   #72
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I was in Germany for a visit when I could hear a conversation of some older folks about the different characteristics of the German brands.
One of them said: "Look, it's easy: In a BMW you want to drive, in a MB you want to be driven. And about Audi we can't say anything". Laughter and consent.

We will see how they will differentiate the new gen cars though.
Suspension for example is still something they can adjust like before to achieve certain characteristics.
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      03-17-2019, 01:59 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Too__Hu///Mble View Post
We are reaching a point of vehicular saturation. Specs are gonna start to bottom out in terms of performance. We are reaching that threshold before we begin to get to exotic numbers.

It appears to be a new approach to car making is commencing...
Start tuned?
This is a very fine observation. Look at Indy cars, performance became so universally outrageous it became dangerous and had to be artificially restricted. Virtually any any car maker can make a super performance car, future differentiations will have to something besides power and handling. Safety, convenience and comfort will be where they compete.
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      03-17-2019, 02:05 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Well, having been around the BMW brand since the late 1970s, through the 1980s YUPPIES era, the steady state 1990s, and into the 2000s, I can say, for the 3 -Series, the F3X marked a change in the BMW brand. The F30 lost "Benchmark" status. BMW left its DNA out of the chassis. To us enthusiasts, a sport sedan has great handling and chassis dynamics along with 3 pedals. The G20 doesn't offer a manual. BMW has ALWAYS offered a manual transmission in the 3-Series. The company is very profitable, it could easily afford a manual offering with both the 6 cylinder and the 4 cylinder. There is no reason for BMW to forget its enthusiast base while it caters to soccer mom's. Every other manufacturer makes a 4-cylinder automatic. BMW used to be different. While most buyers wouldn't know a straight-six from a V6, the people from whom BMW earned its reputation (and why most people covet the Roundel), deserve a non-M sport sedan offering from BMW.
I agree with you on most but if it manual transmissions don't sell, it doesn't sell. I have accepted it and no longer going to harp on it like electric steering because the market has spoken.

As for The F3X being somewhat of a turning point, I do agree with you that it is a vehicle that BMW changed a lot relative to its history but overall, assuming it's spec'd to a certain point, it's still a 3 Series in a sense that it's still offers a great overall vehicle.

But with that said, this is where the "enthusiast" doesn't seem to know what they want. I can tell you of a dealership that has no less than 18 units of 340i's left in stock all decently spec'd or spec'd with all the M Performance bits. From what's available today, the so called enthusiasts are not even jumping on these 340i's that can be had at the old BMW pricing/rates and then some, instead they're jumping on G20 330i's and are happy to pay on average $750+/month. So if we're go by the notion that BMW are building less "driver" orientated cars, how are 340i's being overlooked by G20 330i's by so called "enthusiasts"? It has to be one of the following: the specific enthusiast market is so minuscule (which we already know is true), or they have gone with the masses and decided to go with what is newer is best. In either case, BMW is just following and giving what the market is asking.
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      03-17-2019, 03:04 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
I agree with you on most but if it manual transmissions don't sell, it doesn't sell. I have accepted it and no longer going to harp on it like electric steering because the market has spoken.

As for The F3X being somewhat of a turning point, I do agree with you that it is a vehicle that BMW changed a lot relative to its history but overall, assuming it's spec'd to a certain point, it's still a 3 Series in a sense that it's still offers a great overall vehicle.

But with that said, this is where the "enthusiast" doesn't seem to know what they want. I can tell you of a dealership that has no less than 18 units of 340i's left in stock all decently spec'd or spec'd with all the M Performance bits. From what's available today, the so called enthusiasts are not even jumping on these 340i's that can be had at the old BMW pricing/rates and then some, instead they're jumping on G20 330i's and are happy to pay on average $750+/month. So if we're go by the notion that BMW are building less "driver" orientated cars, how are 340i's being overlooked by G20 330i's by so called "enthusiasts"? It has to be one of the following: the specific enthusiast market is so minuscule (which we already know is true), or they have gone with the masses and decided to go with what is newer is best. In either case, BMW is just following and giving what the market is asking.
The US Market, BMW's biggest until recently, never asked for a smart, excellent handling sports sedan, BMW just brought it here and the enthusiasts loved it. BMWs got popular because of the new-found wealth in the 1980s economy, so non-enthusiasts started buying BMWs, not even appreciating the dynamics offered by the vehicle; it was the Roundel, yet BMW kept its 3-Series sports sedan. I put forth the proposition that Lexus changed BMW, not non-enthusiasts.

Ford and GM have two legacy marques, the Mustang and Camero. Both Ford and GM have improved those cars drastically in the last 15 years, yet both have retained the core of the Pony Car (a moniker created by the Mustang). BMW should do the same IMO. Even the M3/M4 is an over-priced caricature of itself.
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      03-17-2019, 04:01 PM   #76
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      03-17-2019, 05:47 PM   #77
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this is really no different than say buying say transmissions from ZF, or paying bosch for injectors.

If it makes it sound better, what if mercedes and BMW form a joint venture to make electric vehicle platforms that they will both be using.

There no reason to duplicate work that will more or less be the same and these smaller companies are not going to have the ability to compete with a VW that can spread the development costs over like 8 brands or whatever they have.
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      03-17-2019, 08:04 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
Love how every single person missed the electric platform part of this article.
Well it did say "which are designed to be "electric first," but also have the capability of using conventional powertrains. ". So they are not completely off base.
I read that as primary electric powered with a small 3 cup for mileage extension. Lol

They'd use their own engines.
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      03-17-2019, 08:08 PM   #79
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A///MG Petronas.

Bmw will be back in F1 again
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      03-17-2019, 09:19 PM   #80
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Because screw Audi right?
I mean, the rear of the new 3-series already looks like an Audi so they might as well!
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      03-18-2019, 03:16 AM   #81
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Ok, give me an M4 with the c63 engine
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      03-18-2019, 05:34 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
That maybe it, but so called enthusiasts are part of an immense minority of buyers and they seem to only exist in internet message boards as this one.

That ship sailed a long time ago. BMW builds vehicles where there is market demand. People want smooth ride, gizmos galore, flaccid steering, etc, etc and that is exactly what they are delivering.

The enthusiast has to step to a more expensive model or a M-Car.

As much as some here long for the days of manual transmissions, hydraulic power steering, station wagons, interiors fitted with the bare necessities for driving, those days are gone. Market realities today are vastly different of what they were 20 years ago. The concept of automobile ownership and user interaction is drastically changing. Mobility in the next 20-30 years could possible be mostly automation and likely will not have to own cars anymore. Heck even younger generations are not as vested into car ownership as us old timers did back in our day.

Look how the Cadillac ATS flopped in the marketplace. By all accounts it was the perfect enthusiast tuned and oriented sports sedan. Small, balanced, RWD, manual transmission.... no one cared!! GM will axe it if it hasn't already.
Regarding the ATS, you are right, no one was interested. It was the follow-up to the E90 that BMW should have produced IMO; just 15 years too late. However, the magazines pissed on it first because of CUE and a tight back seat, then because of the gauges, then because the windows were too small (LOL), which kept the public away, also saddled with Cadillac's (GM's) long-since-past quality issues of the 1980's and early 1990's. I also think it would have had better market share had GM not put the Iron Duke in it for the rental fleet, but rather spent the money offering the V6 with a manual transmission. I would have bought an ATS in 2014 had it been offered with the V6 and a manual.

It'll be interesting to see the take up rate of the Genesis G70 with a manual trans and the turbo 4-banger. I doubt it drives as nice as the ATS.
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      03-18-2019, 06:23 AM   #83
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I personally don't like this. Talk about brand dilution. I understand this is becoming the norm in this industry (see Toyota Supra), but for crying out loud, this is the exact opposite of healthy competition. Remember that term?

I understand how this is beneficial for driving assistance tech, because it's just technology, which has nothing to do with what driving enthusiasts and car lovers care about. However, if this is going to result in the rest of the car being one in the same, then I say .

Damn you, bean counters, damn all of you.
It's pronounced BMW Supra.
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      03-18-2019, 07:48 AM   #84
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Well, having been around the BMW brand since the late 1970s, through the 1980s YUPPIES era, the steady state 1990s, and into the 2000s, I can say, for the 3 -Series, the F3X marked a change in the BMW brand. The F30 lost "Benchmark" status. BMW left its DNA out of the chassis. To us enthusiasts, a sport sedan has great handling and chassis dynamics along with 3 pedals. The G20 doesn't offer a manual. BMW has ALWAYS offered a manual transmission in the 3-Series. The company is very profitable, it could easily afford a manual offering with both the 6 cylinder and the 4 cylinder. There is no reason for BMW to forget its enthusiast base while it caters to soccer mom's. Every other manufacturer makes a 4-cylinder automatic. BMW used to be different. While most buyers wouldn't know a straight-six from a V6, the people from whom BMW earned its reputation (and why most people covet the Roundel), deserve a non-M sport sedan offering from BMW.
I disagree about the inflection point. I have owned 3 series of all eras from the E30 going forward. The E90/2 started using runflats, and to counter the horrible bouncy ride BMW softened the suspension (but still got a brittle ride).

My 335i was an exercise in way too much power for the chassis, a BMW first. And the E90 M3 while fine in most aspects, was way too heavy.

For me the inflection point was the E46. The 330i ZHP was as fine a sports sedan as BMW has ever produced. With the E90 forward you had to get an M car to bring back the magic. Before that, you didn’t.
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      03-18-2019, 09:03 AM   #85
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I disagree about the inflection point. I have owned 3 series of all eras from the E30 going forward. The E90/2 started using runflats, and to counter the horrible bouncy ride BMW softened the suspension (but still got a brittle ride).

My 335i was an exercise in way too much power for the chassis, a BMW first. And the E90 M3 while fine in most aspects, was way too heavy.

For me the inflection point was the E46. The 330i ZHP was as fine a sports sedan as BMW has ever produced. With the E90 forward you had to get an M car to bring back the magic. Before that, you didn’t.
I was out yesterday in my Wife's Z3. I have to admit the Z3 E30-based suspension is damned good. I upgraded the Z3 with Bilstiens and H&R sport springs long ago, which vastly improved the handling. My E30 2-door sedan, while now I'm sorry I sold it, was I good chassis and excellently balanced, great in the snow, but it was a bit small. When the E46 arrived, I was begining to shop for a replacement for the E30. I found the E46 too refined for my tastes. The chassis was somewhat removed from the driving experience, and the engine intake and exhaust was too isolated. That was late in the E46 cycle, and I test drove the E90 about 18 months later, and was sold on it almost instantly. I liked the N52 far better than the M54 in the E46. I found the E90 more connected and engaging than the E46, even with runflats. But I never drove one with ZHP, which I've come to understand is a great formula.

The F30 in 2013 when I first drove it, I found completely lacking any remainence of a BMW sports sedan. The ATS 2.0L, which I drove a week later after a week in an F30 335i, also helped my opinion that the F30 missed the mark. A lot of my opinion has to do with turbocharging. Throwing a turbo onto an in-line 6, kills the character of it. It just unbalances the car IMO. IMO the Caddy was better balanced even with just the turbo-4 and the 6speed auto. It's not a old man, Luddite thing, I've given turbo cars a chance, and I just don't like them and why I passed just last summer on a new leftover 2017 ATS automatic. I just can't do an automatic AND a 4 cylinder turbo.
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      03-18-2019, 09:26 AM   #86
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Merc becoming like BMW and BMW becoming like Merc in recent years.

This was going to happen eventually, especially with the shift to EVs disrupting the entire industry.
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      03-18-2019, 11:06 AM   #87
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I think the auto industry is in worse shape than what is being portrayed publicly and moves like this give us a little insight on what is really happening. This is a survival move. It is not the threat of EVs, yet, but that will be another factor in the coming years.
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      03-18-2019, 02:30 PM   #88
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This is awesome they save money consumer save money
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