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      03-07-2019, 11:47 AM   #67
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What are your reasons, exactly?
The reasons are endless, yet health is most important.
And yes, I worked in the "field" for years, I know what I am talking about regardless of your government's assurance of being "in parameters".
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      03-07-2019, 11:47 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by kyleb350 View Post
I actually wouldn't mind seeing, instead of having x-drive, them putting electric motors at the front and keeping the gas engine powering the rear wheels in order to keep the weight down.
Just like the NSX.
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      03-07-2019, 11:54 AM   #69
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you didnt read then, they said gas engine will still be there
For smell and fumes only though
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      03-07-2019, 12:07 PM   #70
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If they make ALSO an electric M car, then, whatever. If they put electric motors in all M cars, is a NO for me.

I do not want anything electric in my car and don't care how good is a McLaren. I am against electric vehicles for too many reasons and I am quite good with a NA vehicle thank you. If they do, bye.
I already voted with my wallet against the new FWD platform by buying a different brand.
I'd like to tell you that electric/hybrid technology has far too many benefits to ignore.

I've owned a Toyota Prius for almost ten years: Zero failures; no repairs. At 140,000 miles, I'm still on original brake pads. The air conditioning is all-electric, there is no alternator, and, in fact, there isn't a single belt in the engine.

Consider two amazing performance benefits you could realize: First, the electric motor delivers instant torque. Tesla has proven that this is a fantastic performance benefit.

Second, in a turbocharged engine, heated intake air is a performance limitation. BMW has experimented with water injection to solve this... but what if the electric air conditioning system passed through the intercooler? Now you have well-cooled charged air passing into the air intake, maximizing boost without removing any horsepower. And of course the air conditioner itself would take up none of your car's horsepower.

I'm absolutely certain that well-engineered hybrid and all-electric systems are mechanically superior and offer higher performance and reliability than all-mechanical systems. This has been proven since the introduction of electronic ignition and fuel injection, and now with hybrid technology.
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      03-07-2019, 12:22 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by kyleb350 View Post
I actually wouldn't mind seeing, instead of having x-drive, them putting electric motors at the front and keeping the gas engine powering the rear wheels in order to keep the weight down.
The 530e additional batteries and powertrain makes it weigh 230kg/500lbs more than the 530i.

Potentially you could make the battery a bit smaller but I think it would still be quite a bit of extra weight. The only way to get around this would be to change to a 4 cylinder engine for the M3/M4 or down to a 6 cylinder from a V8 in the M5/M8.
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      03-07-2019, 12:48 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Padfan9 View Post
If we can get a hybrid M3, imagine the torque. A little Tesla but I still want to hear the turbos and engine and exhaust roar. Maybe fix the exhaust note!

I want a 3.3-5 0-60 with the hybrid M3/4!
No way if you want a straight line monster buy a Benz or an Audi... the current m3/4 can't put its power down as is... adding more torque will lessen the abilities of the car and it won't be as fun to drive if you can't put the power down.

This is why I sold my m4 comp after 5 months and bought a mint e92 m3 and couldn't be happier.
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      03-07-2019, 12:52 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleb350 View Post
I actually wouldn't mind seeing, instead of having x-drive, them putting electric motors at the front and keeping the gas engine powering the rear wheels in order to keep the weight down.
The 530e additional batteries and powertrain makes it weigh 230kg/500lbs more than the 530i.

Potentially you could make the battery a bit smaller but I think it would still be quite a bit of extra weight. The only way to get around this would be to change to a 4 cylinder engine for the M3/M4 or down to a 6 cylinder from a V8 in the M5/M8.
?? But the I6 is 50% longer longer than the v8.. if it was a v6 then maybe but no one wants a v6 lol
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      03-07-2019, 01:01 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
No way if you want a straight line monster buy a Benz or an Audi... the current m3/4 can't put its power down as is... adding more torque will lessen the abilities of the car and it won't be as fun to drive if you can't put the power down.

This is why I sold my m4 comp after 5 months and bought a mint e92 m3 and couldn't be happier.
Yes if I could pay $2,000 a month; I would have leased the new E63S but for $950, a comp M3 will do! It's still a beast but I agree, RWD has been an issue. If the M3 was AWD with its current weight, with a tune it would be an absolute menace.
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      03-07-2019, 01:26 PM   #75
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First off, I personally am a fan of hybrid sports cars.

If you've ever watched LMP1 blow out an LMP2 or GT car in WEC you'll be a believer. The instant torque on the front wheels kicks in as you exit and you convert to the ICE power as you head down the straight. It's an excellent system.

A few flaws though. They cost a bunch and are very complicated. Despite costing millions and millions more than an INDYCAR they are still a few seconds slower at a track like CotA. Granted this isn't a great comparison, but it shows that the hybrid tech isn't really an improvement for light weight V6 with a turbo.

Batteries work by either putting out a little energy slow or a lot of energy fast. The i3 is slow and slow. It charges slow and dumps it's battery slow. An LMP1 charges batteries fast, dumps it's battery super fast as well for big power boost. It can only do 1 lap on hybrid power alone.

BMW already tried to release a hybrid sports car. You remember it? Nope. Active hybrid 3 and 5. Could do 3 miles on a charge but it also had 390 HP and weighed 3600 lbs. that's damn close to an M3 in power to weight.

Well the auto press hated it and it died. Nobody understands performance hybrid car tech and do they just wanted to know why it couldn't go 30 miles like a Toyota and why it had a big engine and poor mileage. Normal people think hybrids need good gas and electric range.

Activehybrid died and what replaced it? 330e. 180hp 4 cylinder with a massive battery and a 80 ho electric motor. It weighs in at 3800 lbs and has a range of 30miles. I think an article was just posted this week praising it.

The other hybrid car BMW releases was the i8, which has a proper set up IMO. Electric front and ice rear. Proper transition from electric to IcE for performance as you increase the revs. It has a 30 mile range battery set up though. Basically everyone who tracked it ran out of juice about 10 mins into a 20 min session.

You simply can't have proper electric performance for sport AND range. Batteries don't work that way. You want long range you'll not be able to recover that range fast enough to have hybrid performance for 20 mins, let alone a proper race like an 'M car' is supposed to be.

If BMW releases an iM8 with a proper ICE and a proper battery system I will buy my first new BMW ever.

Even better would be an i8 carbon fiber chassis with the Motorrad HP4 race 200 hp engine in the rear and a equally powerful émotor and battery in the front. High rev, 50 mpg, 400 hp, ultra light weight and an electric motor to fill the gap.

I think we will see electric turbos first as that's an easy way to be good boys PR wise, get a nice turbo, and promote the i brand.

As for a proper hybrid M3? I'm very skeptical. The new 3 series is already as big as an e60 and Will weigh in at 3700 lbs. you stack a 30 mile range battery and motor on top of that and you'll get 80 more HP and 400 extra lbs. yikes.

If BMW went for a proper torque dump battery the press would rage about the lack of range in a $70k hybrid.

The tech is far too New for the pop culture perception of it to allow for a good car.
I mean, I'm probably one of 2 people in this thread who even knows what an LMP1 is.

On top of that you have design and maintain a KERS system for 100k miles and warranty is for 50k of those , that will be expensive, let alone 300k miles.

BMW has no choice but to hybridized because of German politics.

I also don't think they can make a true M3 hybrid with a proper Racing hybrid system for under $100k. And keep in mind M cars should last 150k miles or more. You're pressing your luck.

I'd rather see M chase weight loss and electric turbos and let the i division Pursue an M3 rival that's hybrid. What I have a feeling we will get is a G20 M3 with a 330e battery in the trunk and an electric motor taped to the front of the ZF8.

Big yikes. And I hope nobody is dumb enough to buy it. No performance gain, just e range, to make the Bundestag feel good about themselves.

I also hope BMW i keeps the carbon fiber stuff, but I get the feeling they will just start making 4K lb 3 series with a battery and some touch screens inside.

BMW is looking for a hybrid racing series so I'm pretty confident they will try to do this. It will be sacrelige if the M brand is tarnished even more with that lazy engineering we see in the 330e.
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      03-07-2019, 02:26 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
I'd welcome a hybrid M car. Hybrids have been racing at the highest level of motorsport for years now...
So have clutch-less transmissions; yet we still see plenty of people retract at the thought of a DCT-only M2/M3/M4.
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      03-07-2019, 02:43 PM   #77
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      03-07-2019, 06:32 PM   #78
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Do you think it'll be too soon to expect this in the next M3/4 or could it be a possibility?
Definitely not the launch model but down the road, GTS, CS, CSL ... definitely
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      03-07-2019, 06:53 PM   #79
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BMW i has been very disappointing. Everyone thought by BMW being one of the fitst major automakers to develop electric cars for the mass market, they'd be ahead of the pack with great tech. But that hasn't been the case.
And now the BMW i boss seems like he's just regurgitating the same crap that BMW has said ever since BMW i was established.
Everyone knows that electric motors give immediate torque and that is one of their advantages over combustion engines.
How about you tell us something exciting or innovative that shows you will be able to compete with the likes of current Teslas and future Porsches and Audis?
Very uninteresting and un-BMW-like.
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      03-07-2019, 07:06 PM   #80
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March 7, 2019 Update:

Also updated original post with this latest development.

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Originally Posted by Law View Post
"Electrification needs to deserve the M badge", says BMW M CEO

Following up on the related discussion about incorporating BMW i electrification technology into future M-cars, BMW M has confirmed that this is, indeed, in the works, but the electrified M products will only be released when they meet certain requirements.

Markus Flasch, BMW M's new boss since fourth-quarter of 2018, has spoken more about the electrification process within BMW M.

Speaking with CarBuzz at Geneva, Flasch says "We will put the train on the rails during my term [as M division chief]"

"If we’re going to see something in the next 3 to 6 years it’s not something I can discuss today, but we are working on all types of electrification, all types of concepts.”

Electrification is certainly a hot-topic for debate, especially among BMW enthusiasts (and even more so, when on the topic of M-cars).
However, Flasch wanted to make it clear that electrification does not mean that BMW M is giving up on driving dynamics.

"Electrification needs to deserve the M badge,” he said. "We are in the lucky position that with our current engine lineup we are fulfilling all (emissions) regulations worldwide. We are happy. Our customers are happy. I don’t have the urge to put something to market as a test to see if it performs as well as the current M5. I will only put an electrified M5 to the market as soon as it outperforms the current one. But this is what we’re working towards.”

The BMW M CEO continues to elaborate and implies that electrification of M-cars is more than just about acceleration and power.
He states the objective of extracting as much character as possible to maintain the driving experience of future electrified M-cars as emotional experiences.

"Electrification is not just about propulsion technology. It’s the way you apply it, the way you control it. It’s the way the chassis and engine systems cooperate. Character is key. I think there is a way to get an EV or a plug-in hybrid extremely emotional, but it’s more than just adding components together and putting a badge on it. There’s still a lot of know-how that needs to go into this.”

It's safe to say that there's still a while to go in terms of R&D, and there is no immediate short-term timeline that can be confirmed.
But what is known is that within both BMW i and BMW M, work has already started as far as drivetrain and chassis development and testing.
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      03-07-2019, 09:32 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Once everyone goes full electric 0 to 60 will all be equally meaningless, like every performance car will be at least high 2s if not getting mid to even sub 2 eventually.

Though I suppose stop talking about 0 to 60 might not be a bad thing, as it's not the only thing that matters...
Interesting theory, but .. drag racing still happens.
If Road legal car all gets to 2 sec what are you comparing, especially when it's all launch control, at least you could compare 1/4 mile? I can't imagine 15 years down the road you going to brag about 2.005 sec 0 to 60 vs 2.1 0 to 60 (almost a full 0.1 sec!!)
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      03-07-2019, 10:26 PM   #82
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IMO what the M division should get is a boss who stays there the next 20 years, like Porsche has with Preuninger for the GT cars. Someone with enough passion for performance and for the brand who fights to get his vision realized.

People respond this type of stuff because if done right, it permeates through to the car’s character - and in a world of democratized power/performance, that’s the only thing left to sell really.
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      03-08-2019, 08:38 AM   #83
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Although there's all sorts of hype about electric vehicles, true electric-only cars are a miniscule amount of car sales at the moment. So personally, I don't see an all-electric M car---or at least many of them---for at least a decade, if not more.

But I do think there could be some value in a hybrid-based M car. My biggest concern with the hybrid approach is the removal of the manual transmission. Not that it's impossible to have a manual in a car with a hybrid drivetrain, they do exist, just in very small numbers. It would be amazing, IMO, to have something the size of the old Z4 coupe, with a manual transmission, and an updated version of the S65 engine with direct injection and a hybrid drivetrain. What a beast that would be! The future doesn't have to be terrible, IMO. It really comes down to the will of the company.

And if BMW's attempt at, say, a hybrid M3/4 is a miss, well, there's always older cars. There's also other brands.
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      03-08-2019, 04:20 PM   #84
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Unfortunately what the press release is really saying is "please don't forsake BMW as a brand because we are so far behind in thinking about doing any performance oriented electric technology vehicles ". I'd love an electric M5 but I'm going to be considerably older before they get anywhere at this rate.
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      03-08-2019, 06:40 PM   #85
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F1 technology in small coupes with 1300kg-1400kg curb weight would be epic.

And get rid of that AWD joke in M cars please.
Smooth torque curve and good tires are more than enough vs. 100kg drivetrain weight penalty.
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      03-08-2019, 09:13 PM   #86
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I see M variants of i cars, like i8M or i5M, but an electric or even hybrid M3 or M5 sounds awful. I hope bmw wont do it (so basically I hope audi wont do it and then bmw copy them)
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      03-09-2019, 01:17 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Except it isn’t. Porsche’s own GT2 RS is faster around the Nürburgring.

Blah blah and then blah. Hybrid is a band aid. I’m waiting for the pure electric M3 with massive carbon content and 500 mile range.
Grippier tyres, more aero, and another 4 years of development.

If the 918 was relaunched today with those changes and even the gt2 Rd engine I’d happily bet it would be faster than the gt2 rs
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      03-09-2019, 01:55 PM   #88
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IMO what the M division should get is a boss who stays there the next 20 years, like Porsche has with Preuninger for the GT cars. Someone with enough passion for performance and for the brand who fights to get his vision realized.

People respond this type of stuff because if done right, it permeates through to the car’s character - and in a world of democratized power/performance, that’s the only thing left to sell really.
Agree completely with this
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