BMW E60 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com  
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  

Go Back   BMW E60 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-10-2020, 02:58 PM   #1
GrussGott
Major General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
11184
Rep
8,906
Posts

Drives: 2018 M4 Comp Indv
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
All B58 engines now mild hybrid?

Maybe I'm WAAAaaayyy late to the party, but last night I noticed that BMW seems to be releasing *all* their 2021+ *40i sedans as "mild hybrids", that is with a 6 cyl inline ICE + 11 HP e-motor & 48v battery.

In other words, seems like the new standard BMW drivetrain will be electric-hybrid?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2020, 03:21 PM   #2
brad850csi
Colonel
869
Rep
2,004
Posts

Drives: 16 F13 M6 Comp
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Maybe I'm WAAAaaayyy late to the party, but last night I noticed that BMW seems to be releasing *all* their 2021+ *40i sedans as "mild hybrids", that is with a 6 cyl inline ICE + 11 HP e-motor & 48v battery.

In other words, seems like the new standard BMW drivetrain will be electric-hybrid?
Most of the refreshes this year including Diesels have the same setup. I expect any refreshed engine from about 6 months ago onwards will have this 48v MHEV setup.

Stolen from the future models info thread:

The 48V system will expand to other models, possibly even F90. The next likely candidate for 48V is G01/G02.

G22/G23 complete worldwide lineup: 420d rwd and xdrive, 430d xdrive, M440d xdrive, 420i, 430i rwd and xdrive, M440i rwd and xdrive. The 48V system is going to be used in all diesels and M440i.
__________________
SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
Appreciate 1
GrussGott11184.00

      09-10-2020, 03:25 PM   #3
GrussGott
Major General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
11184
Rep
8,906
Posts

Drives: 2018 M4 Comp Indv
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I expect any refreshed engine from about 6 months ago onwards will have this 48v MHEV setup.
Certainly sounds like a quiet way to electrify the whole range ... i.e., BMW focus groups say consumers are concerned about the e-tech being unproven or fringe so they're going to condition them that it's always been there.

Certainly seems like a prelude to fully electrifying the whole range, and not just an e-only line. The stealth 45e PHEV would also seem to be part of this ... not an i-line, not fully electric, but more than MHEV.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2020, 03:58 PM   #4
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
6469
Rep
18,941
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
In other words, seems like the new standard BMW drivetrain will be electric-hybrid?
Technically true, although the industry trend to classify this type of 48V technology as so called "Mild Hybrid" (MHEV), is at least in part a marketing-driven movement.

After all, even 12V vehicles (including BMW's) employ start/stop and coast (sailing). Yet, we don't call these hybrids. It's true that the 48V system certainly makes these functions more robust and also adds regenerative braking, and in some manufacturers' (though not yet BMW's) implementations, electric supercharging. Furthermore, some more advanced 48V implementations are built into the engine/transmission, such as the one used by Mercedes, which allows for all auxiliary systems to be electric and completely eliminates belts from the engine.

So, yes, the industry is moving toward more robust electric systems in all combustion vehicles, and these contribute small gains in fuel economy. But to classify them as hybrids is a reach, and this is underscored by the fact that, when tabulating HEV sales, they are not included.
Appreciate 3
heavyD^21509.50
clee1982721.00
David701220.00

      09-10-2020, 04:13 PM   #5
GrussGott
Major General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
11184
Rep
8,906
Posts

Drives: 2018 M4 Comp Indv
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
But to classify them as hybrids is a reach, and this is underscored by the fact that, when tabulating HEV sales, they are not included.
Adding an inline 11 HP e-motor to the driveshaft seems only not-hybrid due to the size of the e-motor. Make it a 111 HP w/ a larger battery and now you've got hybrid, right?

Add a plug and now it's a PHEV.

Seems to me BMW is going all hybrid, but trying to downplay it with wording, rather than function but ... tomato toMAHto?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2020, 04:21 PM   #6
smrtypants44
Lieutenant
smrtypants44's Avatar
United_States
301
Rep
591
Posts

Drives: 2017 440i
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Tulsa, OK

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Adding an inline 11 HP e-motor to the driveshaft seems only not-hybrid due to the size of the e-motor. Make it a 111 HP w/ a larger battery and now you've got hybrid, right?

Add a plug and now it's a PHEV.

Seems to me BMW is going all hybrid, but trying to downplay it with wording, rather than function but ... tomato toMAHto?
I think its less about going green and more about powering all the increasing amount of electrical features
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2020, 04:24 PM   #7
brad850csi
Colonel
869
Rep
2,004
Posts

Drives: 16 F13 M6 Comp
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

You guys should check out the weird prototype thread as well where we talk about the electric turbo system from Borg Warner with no wastegate needed - overspeeding the turbine is sorted by the 48v regen ability instead. Plus of course low speed response is helped out by the 48v motor.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1751470
__________________
SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
Appreciate 2
GrussGott11184.00
clee1982721.00

      09-10-2020, 04:29 PM   #8
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
6469
Rep
18,941
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
tomato toMAHto?
Yes and no.

If they evolve to a point where the consensus among leading industry trade bodies is to count these mild hybrids as true HEVs, I'm all for it. However, it might be that plug-ins proliferate quickly enough that such evolution never has time to occur. We are already looking at a PHEV heavy lineup from BMW for the coming generation, and others are heading the same direction. As the end of the decade rolls around and we are onto the generation after that, we may be facing rapidly depleting demand for zero-electric-range combustion vehicles.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2020, 04:43 PM   #9
GrussGott
Major General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
11184
Rep
8,906
Posts

Drives: 2018 M4 Comp Indv
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
we may be facing rapidly depleting demand for zero-electric-range combustion vehicles.
Exactly, in 7 years we'll be saying it's not a full electric because it still has an 11hp ICE
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
Appreciate 0
      09-11-2020, 01:06 AM   #10
brad850csi
Colonel
869
Rep
2,004
Posts

Drives: 16 F13 M6 Comp
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Exactly, in 7 years we'll be saying it's not a full electric because it still has an 11hp ICE
i3 Rex is calling you from 2013
__________________
SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
Appreciate 0
      09-11-2020, 08:37 AM   #11
M_Chronos
Private First Class
M_Chronos's Avatar
77
Rep
127
Posts

Drives: BMW M3
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: VA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Maybe I'm WAAAaaayyy late to the party, but last night I noticed that BMW seems to be releasing *all* their 2021+ *40i sedans as "mild hybrids", that is with a 6 cyl inline ICE + 11 HP e-motor & 48v battery.

In other words, seems like the new standard BMW drivetrain will be electric-hybrid?
My understanding is that the motor is not integrated. It is a belt driven starter / generator to make start / stop and the coasting sailing mode more efficient and seamless.
Appreciate 0
      09-11-2020, 08:54 AM   #12
heavyD^2
Lieutenant Colonel
heavyD^2's Avatar
Canada
1510
Rep
1,550
Posts

Drives: X3M Competition
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

iTrader: (0)

Another advantage 48V systems is the ability to use smaller gauge wiring making wire harnesses all over the vehicle smaller and lighter.
Appreciate 2
clee1982721.00
Poochie5711.00

      09-11-2020, 08:56 AM   #13
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
6469
Rep
18,941
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Chronos View Post
My understanding is that the motor is not integrated. It is a belt driven starter / generator to make start / stop and the coasting sailing mode more efficient and seamless.
While this is true, even the Mercedes M256 implementation (for example) where the motor is sandwiched between the engine and transmission is still only a 48V system and cannot power the vehicle on its own (for any appreciable length of time).

It's likely true that a belt driven "full hybrid" would not be practical in the real world. Still, it's an implementation detail (even though I agree BMW's is inferior on a purely technical basis). Practically speaking, the real answer to the question "Is it a 'true' hybrid?" is "Does the electric motor move the car on its own or not?". I'd suggest this is the basis on which vehicles are and, hopefully, will continue to be counted / not-counted toward "electrified vehicle" sales (for those keeping score).
Appreciate 1
clee1982721.00

      09-11-2020, 09:01 AM   #14
Burrcold
Lieutenant Colonel
Canada
1947
Rep
1,923
Posts

Drives: 2019 Audi RS5 Sportback
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Why are the total HP numbers no different if this 48v electric motor is supposed to increase HP by 11? And wouldn't 0 to 60 times be slightly better (maybe the curb weight increased?).
__________________
2019 Audi RS5 Sportback
2020 BMW M340i xDrive - Sold
2019 Audi S5 Sportback - RIP
2019 Audi S4 - Sold
2018 Audi S5 Coupe - Sold
Appreciate 0
      09-11-2020, 09:14 AM   #15
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
6469
Rep
18,941
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrcold View Post
Why are the total HP numbers no different if this 48v electric motor is supposed to increase HP by 11? And wouldn't 0 to 60 times be slightly better (maybe the curb weight increased?).
One common reason for this is that the two propulsion units do not have the same power curve, so their peaks do not occur at the same RPM.

Secondarily, software can be used to limit total system output.
Appreciate 1
clee1982721.00

      09-11-2020, 09:56 AM   #16
M_Chronos
Private First Class
M_Chronos's Avatar
77
Rep
127
Posts

Drives: BMW M3
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: VA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrcold View Post
Why are the total HP numbers no different if this 48v electric motor is supposed to increase HP by 11? And wouldn't 0 to 60 times be slightly better (maybe the curb weight increased?).
The power ratings for the ICE and electric are not additive and I suspect when the ICE is at the RPM level that it is making peak power the electric motor is not engaged. I think I read they are using it for torque fill to increase throttle response. I believe the primary function of this system is to make start / stop much smoother and to add the ability to completely shutoff the ICE when the car is in sailing mode.
Appreciate 2
clee1982721.00
Poochie5711.00

      09-21-2020, 11:55 PM   #17
clee1982
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
721
Rep
1,676
Posts

Drives: 2019 BMW 540i xDrive
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
this 11hp electric can't drive car on its own right (for any real range)? I wouldn't call that hybrid, it definitely makes auto start/stop as close to real hybrid as possible (i.e. much more seamless than the "when I get into my 540 I turn off auto start/stop right away")
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2020, 08:22 AM   #18
David70
Colonel
United_States
1220
Rep
2,356
Posts

Drives: 06 Z4M Coupe - 13 Cadillac ATS
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Adding an inline 11 HP e-motor to the driveshaft seems only not-hybrid due to the size of the e-motor. Make it a 111 HP w/ a larger battery and now you've got hybrid, right?

Add a plug and now it's a PHEV.

Seems to me BMW is going all hybrid, but trying to downplay it with wording, rather than function but ... tomato toMAHto?
I don't believe this is BMW trying to downplay or talk us into hybrids. The system has a number of benefits at an overall cost that makes it worth doing. From what I have read - regenerative braking (free energy), to smooth and efficient stop/starts, to quickly heating up the cabin (electric power), running all heat and a/c off electric, boosting power as needed, then with a relatively small battery and motor. It takes many of the things that the ICE doesn't do well and reduces their problems.

As long as it all works reliably then I don't think most consumers will care that they have a new system. No extra maintenance, you don't plug it in, you just get in an drive it like every other car.
__________________
2006 Z4M Coupe - Stromung exhaust, ZHP knob, stubby antenna, clutch delay delete
Appreciate 1
clee1982721.00

      09-22-2020, 02:36 PM   #19
GrussGott
Major General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
11184
Rep
8,906
Posts

Drives: 2018 M4 Comp Indv
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I don't believe this is BMW trying to downplay ... As long as it all works reliably then I don't think most consumers will care ...
Sounds like frogs in a hot tub ...

✓ Hydraulic steering -> electric?
✓ Electric fans?
✓ Auto stop / start?
✓ Inline electric motor and battery?
◻︎ Electric climate control?
◻︎ Bigger e-motor and battery?
◻︎ Plug-in?
◻︎ BEV?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:06 AM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST