WHEN will HAM take up the challenge?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by minn19

Honestly can’t wait, hope to go to my first race to!

Side bet, who will continue to mature more LEC or VER? I know where my money is.

I don’t think Leclerc is worried about Sainz all that much. He’s going to do his own thing regardless of who his teammate is. Not everyone is as petty as Max and has to have all the attention on them.

From what we know and saw , LeCrash will fight again to be the "Alpha-male" at Ferrari .
LeCrash is the "first" driver at Ferrari and he try to kill Sainz ASAP ...
LeCrash has the advantage , because he knows the car and Sainz not .
Anyway , a fight "IN" the team between the Ferrari drivers is "guaranteed" !
From my side I really hope that Sainz will win this fight . As we know from what LeCrash did with the poor SEB !
In short I really hope for a pay back time ...
While Binotto remains the Ferrari clown....

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

Yes my friend and backs up what I was saying that his tech understandability is somewhat suspect.,keeps saying 'provide proof' and not much else. Lesson number one to him should be not to mess with pro's.

Seriously mate....No one on this forum seems to have less understanding of F1 history and the Technical regulations that you and your pal.
In order of the most bonkers...you pair have claimed:
That Mercedes have an auto start launch system
That the Mercedes engine has between 100 and 150bhp more than the Ferrari/Renault/Honda engines
That the DAS system was illegal before the Fia ruled them to be banned from next season
That tyre cooling is illegal
That only Mercedes run an engine turbo anti lag system.
Plus various other unfounded nonsenses.

Of course its normal...you've only recently paid full attention to F1 since you found Verstappen to follow, so you can't be expected to know much...but surely you have realised that there are several posters here who have been following F1 for decades and actually know how its history and the main principles of the technical and sporting regulations.

OK, so one very last attempt to explain how the regulation of F1 works.

The monetary value of a teams final championship position is immense.
While typically Ferrari will receive around $200 million and Mercedes around $175 million, the bottom team will receive around $50 million.

So there is naturally pressure to cheat/game the system/innovate in order to gain a performance advantage.
Cheating as in Red Bull flexible front wing
Gaming the system where you find a benefit by getting around a specific regulation by exploiting a loop hole in the technical regulations while knowing that it is against the spirit of the regulations such as Ferrari and Honda fuel flow wheeze.
And innovate such as the Mercedes DAS system which was not covered by anything at all in the regulations when fitted.

Teams will usually consult the FIA regarding whether a particular innovation they are researching is legal.
Teams invest a significant amount of resources on scrutinizing the design and performance of their competitors, looking for any sign of an innovation or cheat that they might copy or question its legality with the FIA.
Teams also poach other teams personnel at some cost in order to discover what if any "tricks" that team is trying to hide.
So...if a team is cheating, it never stays secret for long.
If a team is disputing another teams design then its worth paying attention.
If some third rate retarded Dutch racing driver is making nonsense up on a crappy website then not so much.

[M5theonlyone]

Of course its normal...you've only recently paid full attention to F1 since you found Verstappen to follow, so you can't be expected to know much...but surely you have realised that there are several posters here who have been following F1 for decades and actually know how its history and the main principles of the technical and sporting regulations.iver is making nonsense up on a crappy website then not so much.[/QUOTE]

*No need for you bust a gut explaining,I've been following F1 longer than you care to give me credit for.
I was supporting other teams well before VER came on. Regarding das for instance, fia could have banned it immediately, it's easy for them to convert to normal steering and fia knew they have big advantage already from engine and other things, (things that other top sports people have mentioned already) have given Merc one hand on trophy even before the season started!
So.. why give so much leeway to Merc.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

Regarding das for instance, fia could have banned it immediately, it's easy for them to convert to normal steering and fia knew they have big advantage already from engine and other things, (things that other top sports people have mentioned already) have given Merc one hand on trophy even before the season started!
So.. why give so much leeway to Merc.

There was no rule that excluded a system like Mercs DAS.
True the FIA could have banned it immediately...but its a genuine innovation, something other teams could easily have copied but haven't.
Banning the device for next season was a compromise, I suspect more for safety and reducing cost than because it gave Mercedes much of an advantage.

Its not like the FIA haven't been lenient with other teams in the past for worse like outright cheating (again see Red Bull front wing)...so their decision on DAS seems fair.

I do agree though that the Mercedes power advantage (whatever it is) is annoying and not good for the spectacle of F1 and I'd much rather all the cars were much closer in performance.

Part of me would like F1 to have a system similar to the BTCC with success ballast and top ten reverse grids etc...but then it would be less F1 and more of an entertainment show.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There was no rule that excluded a system like Mercs DAS.
True the FIA could have banned it immediately...but its a genuine innovation, something other teams could easily have copied but haven't.
Banning the device for next season was a compromise, I suspect more for safety and reducing cost than because it gave Mercedes much of an advantage.

Its not like the FIA haven't been lenient with other teams in the past for worse like outright cheating (again see Red Bull front wing)...so their decision on DAS seems fair.

I do agree though that the Mercedes power advantage (whatever it is) is annoying and not good for the spectacle of F1 and I'd much rather all the cars were much closer in performance.

Part of me would like F1 to have a system similar to the BTCC with success ballast and top ten reverse grids etc...but then it would be less F1 and more of an entertainment show.

He doesn't even know how to quote people here properly and you think he'll understand what you wrote.

Great post(s) by the way.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

From what we know and saw , LeCrash will fight again to be the "Alpha-male" at Ferrari .
LeCrash is the "first" driver at Ferrari and he try to kill Sainz ASAP ...
LeCrash has the advantage , because he knows the car and Sainz not .
Anyway , a fight "IN" the team between the Ferrari drivers is "guaranteed" !
From my side I really hope that Sainz will win this fight . As we know from what LeCrash did with the poor SEB !
In short I really hope for a pay back time ...
While Binotto remains the Ferrari clown....

The only thing I agree with in this post.

[SenorFunkyPants]

I can't say I know Binotto bar his comments to the media...but I didn't think he had done a particularly bad job with what he has to work with.
Having lived and worked in Italy for 10 years I know the immense pressure that is put upon whoever is in charge of the Ferrari F1 team.
The Ferrari F1 team is essentially a national team.
The press dissect every strategic decision made during a race.
If Ferrari wins then they are heros...if they lose (too often) then someone is for the chop.
The team managers job is a proper poisoned chalice.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I can't say I know Binotto bar his comments to the media...but I didn't think he had done a particularly bad job with what he has to work with.
Having lived and worked in Italy for 10 years I know the immense pressure that is put upon whoever is in charge of the Ferrari F1 team.
The Ferrari F1 team is essentially a national team.
The press dissect every strategic decision made during a race.
If Ferrari wins then they are heros...if they lose (too often) then someone is for the chop.
The team managers job is a proper poisoned chalice.

I preface this by saying I obviously don't know him or F1 that in depth for that matter. But, from a fairly long time fans perspective (me/mine/others) they look pretty bad in all facets. It isn't just the losing, but the way they are losing. Bad pit stops, terrible strategy and implementation of strategies on top of a bad car. The way they've handled the VET situation etc etc. It just looks like total chaos and that usually falls on the coach/principle no matter what sport it is.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by minn19

I preface this by saying I obviously don't know him or F1 that in depth for that matter. But, from a fairly long time fans perspective (me/mine/others) they look pretty bad in all facets. It isn't just the losing, but the way they are losing. Bad pit stops, terrible strategy and implementation of strategies on top of a bad car. The way they've handled the VET situation etc etc. It just looks like total chaos and that usually falls on the coach/principle no matter what sport it is.

Indeed the team has looked really quite wobbly lately especially this season.
It doesn't help when drivers (especially Vettel) try to second guess the pit stop strategies.
I think the pressure the whole team is under makes teamwork quite difficult...everyone trying to keep their head down out of the firing line.

Ferrari would surely work much better in a similar manner to the Mercedes team which seems to operate as a much more cohesive team with little external upper managerial oversight..but I can't see that happening any time soon.

[BBri89]

Ferraris problem is someone has to pay for bad form.

They come 2nd in the championship, they didn't win, someone must be replaced. They had a back aero package on that years car, someone must be replaced to fix it. The new Director of X hasn't made any improvements in 6 months, they must be replaced.

Instead of thinking we weren't the winners so someone needs replacing, they should analyse it quite carefully and see are we the best WE can be. If we're going to make a change, is it actually to make US better. If not, it's a pointless change.

The R&D and lead times in F1 are so long. You can't expect a change overnight. You also can't expect to be the best all the time.

I know they strive to win at all costs, but they almost need to accept that second or third is not that bad.

Instead, they should allow those new senior members to effect changes, and assess how those changes work over the course of a season or two, then look how they can improve.
Putting peoples heads on the block because they weren't a magic fix in 3 months is futile.

Their location in Maranello, vs almost every other team being located in the south Midlands and north South East areas around Oxfordshire, Bedfordshire, Northamptonshire, Surrey etc are turning away talent too. You can change F1 teams and for the most part still commute from home. You go to Ferrari you leave your family behind or uproot them to another country. I think a couple of Merc people, including the guy responsible for the AMG engine were put off by that.

Then there's the emotive pressure of the tifosi, which you just don't get as any other F1 team.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Indeed the team has looked really quite wobbly lately especially this season.
It doesn't help when drivers (especially Vettel) try to second guess the pit stop strategies.
I think the pressure the whole team is under makes teamwork quite difficult...everyone trying to keep their head down out of the firing line.

Ferrari would surely work much better in a similar manner to the Mercedes team which seems to operate as a much more cohesive team with little external upper managerial oversight..but I can't see that happening any time soon.

Originally Posted by BBri89

Ferraris problem is someone has to pay for bad form.

They come 2nd in the championship, they didn't win, someone must be replaced. They had a back aero package on that years car, someone must be replaced to fix it. The new Director of X hasn't made any improvements in 6 months, they must be replaced.

Instead of thinking we weren't the winners so someone needs replacing, they should analyse it quite carefully and see are we the best WE can be. If we're going to make a change, is it actually to make US better. If not, it's a pointless change.

The R&D and lead times in F1 are so long. You can't expect a change overnight. You also can't expect to be the best all the time.

I know they strive to win at all costs, but they almost need to accept that second or third is not that bad.

Instead, they should allow those new senior members to effect changes, and assess how those changes work over the course of a season or two, then look how they can improve.
Putting peoples heads on the block because they weren't a magic fix in 3 months is futile.

Their location in Maranello, vs almost every other team being located in the south Midlands and north South East areas around Oxfordshire, Bedfordshire, Northamptonshire, Surrey etc are turning away talent too. You can change F1 teams and for the most part still commute from home. You go to Ferrari you leave your family behind or uproot them to another country. I think a couple of Merc people, including the guy responsible for the AMG engine were put off by that.

Then there's the emotive pressure of the tifosi, which you just don't get as any other F1 team.

Definitely fair observations/criticisms.

[M5theonlyone]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There was no rule that excluded a system like Mercs DAS.
True the FIA could have banned it immediately...but its a genuine innovation, something other teams could easily have copied but haven't.
Banning the device for next season was a compromise, I suspect more for safety and reducing cost than because it gave Mercedes much of an advantage.

Its not like the FIA haven't been lenient with other teams in the past for worse like outright cheating (again see Red Bull front wing)...so their decision on DAS seems fair.

I do agree though that the Mercedes power advantage (whatever it is) is annoying and not good for the spectacle of F1 and I'd much rather all the cars were much closer in performance.

Part of me would like F1 to have a system similar to the BTCC with success ballast and top ten reverse grids etc...but then it would be less F1 and more of an entertainment show.

Your fixation with RB front wing is getting comical, more important is Merc's dominance since '14 in a lot of areas and bringing in politics which should be stamped out by FIA.
Can't understand you following with Merc,you didn't seem to support any particular driver/team before but I do agree with you in bringing in success ballast to curtail any runaway winners like HAM.

[tranquility]

Amazing you guys are having lengthy debates about this trivial matter.

Is HAM an amazing driver? Yes. Is he the best driver? Dunno, maybe or maybe not.

Fact of the matter is that there are WAY too many variables whereas the ONLY variable that should be the determinant should be the driver himself, that's it. In a world where Ferrari has their own team of engineers come out whenever auto journalists test their cars, tinkering w tires, pressures, settings, etc etc etc, when these relatively minor things obviously affect the outcome of the times, you're gonna tell me we should all of a sudden discount MAJOR variables such as a superior car/setup and ONLY focus on the driver? Cmon.

Obviously, HAM has nothing to gain and everything to lose taking up that challenge (vs a relatively 'nobody'), so I wouldn't hold it against him for refusing. However, that is the ONLY way to know for sure who is the best. Stop kidding yourselves that you can take into account all these crazy variables, brush them aside like they are nothing and focus only on the driver, that's just being disingenuous and totally ridiculous. The end.

[M5theonlyone]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Amazing you guys are having lengthy debates about this trivial matter.

Is HAM an amazing driver? Yes. Is he the best driver? Dunno, maybe or maybe not.

Fact of the matter is that there are WAY too many variables whereas the ONLY variable that should be the determinant should be the driver himself, that's it. In a world where Ferrari has their own team of engineers come out whenever auto journalists test their cars, tinkering w tires, pressures, settings, etc etc etc, when these relatively minor things obviously affect the outcome of the times, you're gonna tell me we should all of a sudden discount MAJOR variables such as a superior car/setup and ONLY focus on the driver? Cmon.

Obviously, HAM has nothing to gain and everything to lose taking up that challenge (vs a relatively 'nobody'), so I wouldn't hold it against him for refusing. However, that is the ONLY way to know for sure who is the best. Stop kidding yourselves that you can take into account all these crazy variables, brush them aside like they are nothing and focus only on the driver, that's just being disingenuous and totally ridiculous. The end.

Go with you most of the way with that and to add to the mix driver Grosjean made an important point with the hugely overtalked subject of who is the greatest driver of modern times in that HAM is only fighting with one driver when M.Schumacher was fighting with MANY opponents close up.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

Your fixation with RB front wing is getting comical,

That pales into insignificance with the number of times you (two) drag up fake accusations of Mercedes cheating.

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

Can't understand you following with Merc,you didn't seem to support any particular driver/team

I don't...but I do appreciate and like to recognise, great driving and design excellence.

[OkieSnuffBox]

-7,000 "rep" for starting such a stupid thread.

[dbarton62]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Amazing you guys are having lengthy debates about this trivial matter.

Is HAM an amazing driver? Yes. Is he the best driver? Dunno, maybe or maybe not.

Fact of the matter is that there are WAY too many variables whereas the ONLY variable that should be the determinant should be the driver himself, that's it. In a world where Ferrari has their own team of engineers come out whenever auto journalists test their cars, tinkering w tires, pressures, settings, etc etc etc, when these relatively minor things obviously affect the outcome of the times, you're gonna tell me we should all of a sudden discount MAJOR variables such as a superior car/setup and ONLY focus on the driver? Cmon.

Obviously, HAM has nothing to gain and everything to lose taking up that challenge (vs a relatively 'nobody'), so I wouldn't hold it against him for refusing. However, that is the ONLY way to know for sure who is the best. Stop kidding yourselves that you can take into account all these crazy variables, brush them aside like they are nothing and focus only on the driver, that's just being disingenuous and totally ridiculous. The end.

I agree for the most part with what you say.
However if the 2- 33%ers keep setting up their weak commentary its inevitable it will be knocked down.

[M5theonlyone]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

-7,000 "rep" for starting such a stupid thread.

Well then why doesn't he take up the challenge mate, that's stupid.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

Well then why doesn't he take up the challenge mate, that's stupid.

Again....Mercedes have already offered Verstappen a drive in a Mercedes against Hamilton...just waiting for Verstappen to accept.
Maybe Verstappen is too clucking chicken to accept?

[M5theonlyone]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Again....Mercedes have already offered Verstappen a drive in a Mercedes against Hamilton...just waiting for Verstappen to accept.
Maybe Verstappen is too clucking chicken to accept?

Hey,I'm an animal lover mate.

[BBri89]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There was no rule that excluded a system like Mercs DAS.
True the FIA could have banned it immediately...but its a genuine innovation, something other teams could easily have copied but haven't.
Banning the device for next season was a compromise, I suspect more for safety and reducing cost than because it gave Mercedes much of an advantage.

Its not like the FIA haven't been lenient with other teams in the past for worse like outright cheating (again see Red Bull front wing)...so their decision on DAS seems fair.

I do agree though that the Mercedes power advantage (whatever it is) is annoying and not good for the spectacle of F1 and I'd much rather all the cars were much closer in performance.

Part of me would like F1 to have a system similar to the BTCC with success ballast and top ten reverse grids etc...but then it would be less F1 and more of an entertainment show.

I still, having read the relevant section of the FIA Technical Regulations and Sporting Regulations do not see how DAS is actually legal.

It changes the TOE of the car, not the STEERING.
TOE is a function of suspension, much like camber and castor, and those are required to be fixed by the rules.

If it changed the CAMBER by leaning the tyres in or straightening them up, that would not be allowed. But somehow it has been interpreted as steering, which it is not.


Fair play to Mercedes though, they interpreted a loophole, brought the FIA in and got a ruling on it BEFORE they incorporated it into the car. By the time any other teams knew about it in Barca testing 2020, it was too late for the rest of the teams to catch up.


But there is no way that it is a steering thing, it is definitely altering suspension characteristics, and that for me given the words of the regulations mean it should not have been permitted, and when they enquired with the FIA, the FIA should have said no.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Amazing you guys are having lengthy debates about this trivial matter.

Is HAM an amazing driver? Yes. Is he the best driver? Dunno, maybe or maybe not.

Fact of the matter is that there are WAY too many variables whereas the ONLY variable that should be the determinant should be the driver himself, that's it. In a world where Ferrari has their own team of engineers come out whenever auto journalists test their cars, tinkering w tires, pressures, settings, etc etc etc, when these relatively minor things obviously affect the outcome of the times, you're gonna tell me we should all of a sudden discount MAJOR variables such as a superior car/setup and ONLY focus on the driver? Cmon.

Obviously, HAM has nothing to gain and everything to lose taking up that challenge (vs a relatively 'nobody'), so I wouldn't hold it against him for refusing. However, that is the ONLY way to know for sure who is the best. Stop kidding yourselves that you can take into account all these crazy variables, brush them aside like they are nothing and focus only on the driver, that's just being disingenuous and totally ridiculous. The end.

Did you watch the 2007 season perchance?