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      07-31-2019, 08:14 PM   #2201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
ICE to EV is a big jump but that wasn't the point you were originally trying to make. You said that the younger generation is already bought and sold on EVs, so when they become an established customer base, they will likely continue buying EVs (additionally, your context suggested Tesla more so than any EV).

We already agreed that the tesla customer base is, on average, a bit older. They aren't comprised of recent college grads. We also agreed on why that is (lack of marketing, perceived cost etc). These points suggest that the younger generation isn't necessarily already hooked on tesla. Maybe if tesla did a better job of directly marketing their products toward younger people, this could change.

While going from ICE to EV is a leap, going from EV to ICE of hybrid powered cars won't be much of a leap for younger generations who aren't yet set on EV products (as we established). Also consider that eventually the competition will catch up to tesla, at which point jumping brands won't be much of a leap among those shipping for an EV.
Tesla EV tech is years ahead of everyone else's - which is something even the most hardcore TSLAQ people acknowledge, usually by simply never talking about it and focusing instead on Musk's character or all those invented scandals. This advantage is pretty much what Apple had with iPhones when they first came out. Since then, Apple squandered its position, but even now if you look at the market, there are iPhones, and there's everything else. The same way, unless the other manufacturers figure out how to close that 3 year technology gap, in the foreseeable future, people who want to buy an EV, without a preference for a specific brand, will be more likely to choose a Tesla than anything else. And just like with Apple I don't see how that gap can be closed unless Tesla itself stumbles.

As for choosing ICE after setting your sights on EV - please. Oil changes? Visits to gas stations every few days? Not being able to get into a pre-cooled car on a hot day? ICE owners talk about charging on long trips as a deal breaker for the move to EVs. What you don't realize is that for someone who started in the EV world there exist _multiple_ deal breakers for the switch to an ICE vehicle.
I don't have anything against musk or tesla. Musk is a brilliant visionary in a time when people like this seem fewer and further between. I'm just not quite certain about some of the claims made by the tesla fan base. The reality is usually somewhere in the middle.

For example, young drivers aren't currently being indoctrinated directly into EVs. I realize some new drivers might be driving a Tesla or other EV model, but the majority are driving cars powered by internal combustion engines. We all have to remember that the trends you might see in your back yard aren't necessarily representative of what's happening in other regions. This is to say nothing of global trends.

Consider also that there are hurdles that currently slow the EV car's ascent to mainstream dominance. Much of the US is still deriving power from plants that run on fossil fuels. I've seen some calculations that estimate a typical EV to leave a carbon footprint somewhere between the average ICE and the most fuel efficient ICE and hybrid powered cars. There are some highly populated metro regions in need of some major overhauls to infrastructure before being able to offer real advantage to EV technology.

I also wonder how the current grid would respond if everyone purchased one or more EVs. At present, whenever there's a heatwave, the uptick in air conditioner operation overwhelms capacity and causes major brown outs in NY and other regions. What will happen when everyone begins charging automobile batteries everyday? This might mean that power plants will need to become cleaner, more efficient, and more numerous (or each will need to operate at a higher capacity). This seems like a lofty goal (not to say it can't be done, but it's not a trivial matter). I don't know the answer to these questions, or how the math works out. I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable like yourself does and can lend insight into these questions regarding the capacity to support a wide spread switch to EVs.

Another issue that is somewhat slowing the rate of EV acceptance, is the fact that not everyone has access to an adequate charging station. Regardless of how technological advances accelerate battery charging, it will still require some time that's longer than filling up a gas tank. What does this mean for someone who doesn't have access at home or work to a capable, or convenient charging outlet (those living in EV-unfriendly apartments, job sites, regions etc)? Will they be willing to hangout for an hour at a charging station waiting to recharge? Maybe this will create opportunities for theaters, restaurants, cafes, and other places where people spend time? Regardless, this still means a lot of work needs to be done on various levels before EVs are practical for everyone to own. Until these changes begin to take place at a serious pace, I think EV ownership might grow to a certain point and then begin to stall, limited by the bottlenecks I mentioned above and, or others that I'm not aware of.

I realize that musk himself is doing a lot to try and implement some of these changes but he's still only one man, regardless of his wealth, intellect and influence. We still need major government support, and a serious influx of revenue (read taxation) to make the new world a reality. Does this mean we should drag our heels? Of course not. As everyone knows, fossil fuels can't last forever. Eventually there will need to be a transition to a new system of energy production and consumption or life will become exceedingly harsh on multiple different levels. After all, world's current carrying capacity is based upon large reserves of readily available, easily consumed fossil fuel. Any new system has big shoes to fill. Maybe EVs will someday be part of that new paradigm, but I don't see it happening quickly enough, and on a scale sufficient to sustain the growth of any one current corporation, even one as progressive and exciting as tesla. I hope I'm wrong though, because there's a lot to like about them.
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      07-31-2019, 09:23 PM   #2202
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
You've missed the point again: in an EV, this kind of problem and therefore expense simply did not, does not, and will never exist. And that's yet another deal breaker for anyone starting with an EV and looking at ICE.
Indeed, and this very fact (simplicity and therefore likely reliability) was a significant factor in my purchase decision.
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      07-31-2019, 11:21 PM   #2203
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Fuller you sound like myself in December 2018.

Then I researched and researched the pros and cons, then I test drove, then all was clear:. Musk is GOD and I am donating 10% to Tesla every Sunday.

Joking aside, follow both pro and anti EV communities, the future is clear and future is here. The powertrain, the handling, the charging network, and the fun are all there. It's different for sure. Sometimes you can have wine and still drink beer. As I intend to burn fossil fuel along side BEV.
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      08-01-2019, 12:11 AM   #2204
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
Fuller you sound like myself in December 2018.

Then I researched and researched the pros and cons, then I test drove, then all was clear:. Musk is GOD and I am donating 10% to Tesla every Sunday.

Joking aside, follow both pro and anti EV communities, the future is clear and future is here. The powertrain, the handling, the charging network, and the fun are all there. It's different for sure. Sometimes you can have wine and still drink beer. As I intend to burn fossil fuel along side BEV.
To clarify, I wasn't trying to critique EVs for the sake of or out of bias. I was posing certain, broader questions that I have. Claiming that the future is EV, and it's here, sounds great, but is that reality?
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      08-01-2019, 11:14 AM   #2205
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The future is ride sharing and mass transit, complimented with EV for urban environments. As cars continue to get more and more expensive, along with shorter auto-life expectancies, increasing living expenses, fewer young people will be able to afford a car at all. Rural America will long be dominated by ICE.
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      08-01-2019, 08:47 PM   #2206
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Car is getting cheaper (adjust for quality and inflation), urbaner don't buy car because parking and other things (and we don't use it 90% of the time), car itself is nothing compare to what I pay on rent/parking/child day care/nanny...
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      08-02-2019, 09:39 AM   #2207
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Originally Posted by rlmesq View Post
As long as you were a white male.

Really never understood why waste the money to install two fountains when it coming from the same water source.
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      08-02-2019, 11:41 AM   #2208
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlmesq View Post
As long as you were a white male.

Really never understood why waste the money to install two fountains when it coming from the same water source.
Hatred can make humans irrational creatures.
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      08-02-2019, 12:05 PM   #2209
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Post Lawsuit: Tesla drives under semi at 68 mph

Tesla Autopilot steered car under semitruck at 68 mph, lawsuit claims - South Florida Sun-Sentinel
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/p...6iy-story.html

Quote:

According to the preliminary report, Banner was driving south on State Road 7, where the speed limit is 55 mph, when the tractor-trailer pulled out in front of the Tesla, attempting to cross the southbound lanes and turn left to go north. Surveillance videos and forward-facing video from the Tesla show the truck slowed and blocked the Teslaís path, the report said.

The Tesla drove beneath the trailer at 68 mph, and the roof was sheared off, killing Banner.

The crash is eerily similar to another one involving a Tesla in 2016 near Gainesville. Joshua Brown, 40, of Canton, Ohio, was traveling in a Tesla Model S on a divided highway and using the Autopilot system when he was killed.


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      08-02-2019, 12:23 PM   #2210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Really never understood why waste the money to install two fountains when it coming from the same water source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Hatred can make humans irrational creatures.
Note that I posted that picture over two years ago in response to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
The 1950's were not exactly a bad time in america....not to say there were NO issues but......
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      08-02-2019, 12:36 PM   #2211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlmesq View Post
Note that I posted that picture over two years ago in response to this.
Is everything racism now? Can we not even discuss a car company and the pros/cons of it without injecting some goddamned race hustling into it? For the love of God this shit is so tiring. I can't even go into a thread now without some virtue signaling lunatic trying to make me feel like a piece of shit for being a white guy.

BAD THINGS HAPPENED WE GET IT
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      08-02-2019, 01:00 PM   #2212
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Is everything racism now? Can we not even discuss a car company and the pros/cons of it without injecting some goddamned race hustling into it? For the love of God this shit is so tiring. I can't even go into a thread now without some virtue signaling lunatic trying to make me feel like a piece of shit for being a white guy.

BAD THINGS HAPPENED WE GET IT
You know what's tiring? Snowflakes who get butthurt when they confront reality. Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

You obviously have some deep seated guilt. If you can't look at that picture without feeling sadness, you have no soul.
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      08-02-2019, 01:15 PM   #2213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlmesq View Post
You know what's tiring? Snowflakes who get butthurt when they confront reality. Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

You obviously have some deep seated guilt. If you can't look at that picture without feeling sadness, you have no soul.
The past? I'd rather focus on the past that had the white man coming to grips with the horrors of slavery, taking it head on while untold thousands died (nearly all white people btw) in the process, and freeing the black man. That's the history I want to focus on, that and what we can do today to ensure the equality of all races.

Race pimp hustlers like you only want to focus on the wrongs, it's because you have no vision and no arguments. You use race and race baiting to demonize anybody who dares disagree with you, because you're too much of a coward to argue and debate on an intellectual level.
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      08-02-2019, 02:00 PM   #2214
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All right guys calm down please!

Let's stick to the topic at hand: cars!

Thank you and happy Friday all!
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      08-02-2019, 04:16 PM   #2215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs View Post
Tesla Autopilot steered car under semitruck at 68 mph, lawsuit claims - South Florida Sun-Sentinel
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/p...6iy-story.html
Hmm... in that article, not only the text reads, but also the reporter in the video says exactly the same thing:
"Bannerís family sued Tesla, trucking company First Fleet and semitruck driver Richard Keith Wood. The family ó Bannerís wife, Kim, and three kids ó seek more than $15,000 in damages for the death of their husband and father."

$15,000 for damages and his death.
How refreshing to find a lawyer that is not a gold digger.
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      08-02-2019, 04:45 PM   #2216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPBK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs View Post
Tesla Autopilot steered car under semitruck at 68 mph, lawsuit claims - South Florida Sun-Sentinel
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/p...6iy-story.html
Hmm... in that article, not only the text reads, but also the reporter in the video says exactly the same thing:
"Banner’s family sued Tesla, trucking company First Fleet and semitruck driver Richard Keith Wood. The family — Banner’s wife, Kim, and three kids — seek more than $15,000 in damages for the death of their husband and father."

$15,000 for damages and his death.
How refreshing to find a lawyer that is not a gold digger.
I read that and it has to be a mistake. I am thinking more of $15 million?
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      08-02-2019, 04:55 PM   #2217
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I read that and it has to be a mistake. I am thinking more of $15 million?
100% typo, no attorney would even take this case for $15k unless pro bono. Even then that dollar amount is a complete joke.
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      08-03-2019, 12:36 AM   #2218
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Race pimp hustlers like you only want to focus on the wrongs, it's because you have no vision and no arguments. You use race and race baiting to demonize anybody who dares disagree with you, because you're too much of a coward to argue and debate on an intellectual level.
Wow, all those childish insults sure prove what a brave intellectual giant you are!
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      08-04-2019, 01:31 AM   #2219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlmesq View Post
You know what's tiring? Snowflakes who get butthurt when they confront reality. Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

You obviously have some deep seated guilt. If you can't look at that picture without feeling sadness, you have no soul.
The past? I'd rather focus on the past that had the white man coming to grips with the horrors of slavery, taking it head on while untold thousands died (nearly all white people btw) in the process, and freeing the black man. That's the history I want to focus on, that and what we can do today to ensure the equality of all races.

Race pimp hustlers like you only want to focus on the wrongs, it's because you have no vision and no arguments. You use race and race baiting to demonize anybody who dares disagree with you, because you're too much of a coward to argue and debate on an intellectual level.
But why the Tesla?
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      08-04-2019, 06:59 AM   #2220
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Ok, I've said I don't ever see myself owning an EV.....maybe I'd rethink it for one of these......4500 Ft Lbs of torque.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=CYrk5r4kiSM
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      08-04-2019, 08:24 AM   #2221
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Ok, I've said I don't ever see myself owning an EV.....maybe I'd rethink it for one of these......4500 Ft Lbs of torque.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=CYrk5r4kiSM
More evidence why Tesla should have concentrated on development and production of EV drivetrains and left the design and build of automobiles to the experts. Think of the progress Tesla could have made on battery and motor technology had Elon not tried to develop a car company.
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      08-04-2019, 08:55 AM   #2222
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Looks like Tesla is bringing back free unlimited supercharging for new Model S and Model X customers. I wonder how long this will last before they pull the plug on it.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/03/te...model-s-and-x/
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