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      03-23-2016, 02:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Liberal myth. Study after study have shown that legalizing pot in Colorado fie example has increased illegal drugs. They will only switch to synthetic and designer drugs that are even more harmful. And acceptance to using them will be higher now that drugs have become more scepter. As for pot, the current pot sold is something like 10 times more powerful than the pot of the 60s. Most hippies who advocate this and don't worry about their kids smoking it don't realize this. I have seen many friends fry their brains permanently with pot. Many more than are alcoholics.

The violence is committed against the brains of the users. They are often damaged permanently and beyond repair. Not opposed to the death penalty for hard drug dealers who deal in drugs that can cause death if overdosed on.

Finally the tax money. Pot users and other drug users often loose the drive to succeed and be productive. This is a drain on the economy. We need it pay for rehab, have lower gdp, etc. All this lowers taxes. There are studies both ways but the net result is probably a wash tax wise and a reduction in our gdp.

Lastly, heroine and other opiates come from the poppy crops mostly in Afghanistan. They are used to fund terrorism. Drug dealers selling these should be brought up on terrorism charges. I don't care about kingpins, etc. If you harshly prosecute low level dealers you will dry up the supply of them and the kingpins won't have anyone to sell their stuff. More so, if you have a very heavy sentence for them, you can make it lighter but still strong if the cooperate and give up the guys higher up.

I'm going to try to give a coherent to response to this;

RE: More illegal drugs in Colorado now - could it possibly have something to do with a large influx of people who were already heavily invested in drug culture? Remember my point about "creating a black market" - to your point, there's now a concentrated market of willing consumers in Colorado. However; this is still a young experiment. I would be willing to bet that as more states legalize, we will see less and less of this migratory phenomenon and the concentration of consumers that has accompanied it.

I think you have some misconceptions about what weed is and what it is capable of. I believe you would also be quite surprised at just how many people are perfectly happy with using marijuana and never consider moving onto other "drugs".

I'll address your hard drug concerns in my response to gonzo.

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Because of some medical benefits I could see that with pot maybe but the weed isn't the cartels bread and butter. Methamphetamine, heroin and cocaine are. Soul killers as well as the opiate prescription epidemic. When doctors are dealers we've got a problem.
I agree that we have a problem with overprescription of painkillers leading to people getting hooked and then turning to self-medication, but I'm not sure what the best way of correcting that is. Perhaps with time and research we can develop a painkiller that doesn't cause dependency.

Outside of that situation though, I tend to be more of a "take off all the warning labels and let the problems sort themselves out" kinda guy. Personal responsibility and accountability are key - we have the knowledge and education in place that the effects of hard drug use are well known. If you wanna kill yourself by sticking a needle in your arm then go for it, but remember it was your decision.

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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
You make a good point, but the flaw in the logic is that if drugs were legal, crime would drop; it wouldn't. People become addicted, can't hold a job, and steal to purchase legal drugs. Society gets a whole new class of people who can't care for themselves. Amsterdam did this, and it hasn't been a positive experience, IIRC.

The lack of a federal response to CO legalization shows that the Administration's heart is not in the war on drugs, so of course we are losing it.

IMO, we should have a public service announcement campaign, showing the devastation and ruined lives caused by the drug trade in Mexico, Latin America, and the Middle East. American drug users should be ashamed at the human suffering caused by their want to smoke whatever. Is that joint you're smoking worth the suffering of an innocent Mexican family at the hands of a ruthless cartel? We can boycott grapes for decades, but we can't boycott weed?
Like mPlasticDesign noted, no one expects ALL drug-related crime to cease because of legalization. The goal would be to remove the black market, thus removing the large monetary incentive that drives the real violence. I'll trade an uptick in stolen wallets and cell phones for a decrease in drive-by shootings all day long.
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      03-23-2016, 02:16 PM   #46
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      03-23-2016, 02:26 PM   #47
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Boy these Political Science threads make my brain hurt!
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      03-23-2016, 03:06 PM   #48
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      03-23-2016, 03:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
If you wanna kill yourself by sticking a needle in your arm then go for it, but remember it was your decision.
This is based on a fallacy that each of us lives in a vacuum. When that person kills themselves, it affects their entire circle of influence. Spouse, children, parents, co-workers, etc., etc. all suffer from the loss, not just the person with the needle. It might have been their decision, but not the decision of those around them. It is not victimless.
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      03-23-2016, 03:26 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
This is based on a fallacy that each of us lives in a vacuum. When that person kills themselves, it affects their entire circle of influence. Spouse, children, parents, co-workers, etc., etc. all suffer from the loss, not just the person with the needle. It might have been their decision, but not the decision of those around them. It is not victimless.
I understand it's not the most empathetic view, but it's no less victimless than when someone chooses to drink and drive and kills someone who is truly innocent - yet we are implicitly saying that that is an acceptable consequence by continuing to allow alcohol to be sold and consumed legally. At least with hard drugs the "victim" tends to be the person who chose to consume, rather than an innocent bystander (granted, if it was all legalized perhaps we would see an increase in the number of people who were driving impaired from something other than alcohol).

People don't make bad decisions because they use drugs. People use drugs because they make bad decisions - the use of the drugs just compounds the matter.
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      03-23-2016, 03:59 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
I understand it's not the most empathetic view, but it's no less victimless than when someone chooses to drink and drive and kills someone who is truly innocent - yet we are implicitly saying that that is an acceptable consequence by continuing to allow alcohol to be sold and consumed legally. At least with hard drugs the "victim" tends to be the person who chose to consume, rather than an innocent bystander (granted, if it was all legalized perhaps we would see an increase in the number of people who were driving impaired from something other than alcohol).

People don't make bad decisions because they use drugs. People use drugs because they make bad decisions - the use of the drugs just compounds the matter.
so people that do hard drugs dont hurt others? There are probably just as many deaths related to drugs as there are related to alcohol every year. From ODs to DUIDs to violence.

My brother in law is a state trooper in mountains by all the ski resorts and they have seen a huge increase in the number of people driving while high since legalization. The problem is that there is no easy test to see how high you actually are like there is with alcohol, so most people feel they can get away with it. Add to it that not every strain of marijuana affects you the same and you can be fine one moment, and the next, high out of your mind. At least with alcohol, you know you are going to be drunk with 12 beers or 12 shots or 12 drinks etc.
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      03-23-2016, 04:21 PM   #52
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so people that do hard drugs dont hurt others? There are probably just as many deaths related to drugs as there are related to alcohol every year. From ODs to DUIDs to violence.
I was trying to avoid that specific straw man because I know it's not true. I don't have the statistics on this, but I would be willing to wager that the majority of alcohol related fatalities also involve a car as opposed to an overdose. I would also be willing to wager that the number of fatalities related to hard drugs are caused by overdose as opposed to driving while high, would you agree?

My point was that as a society we have determined that the alcohol related deaths are an acceptable side effect of our desire to be able to drink. I find it interesting that our society is more invested in protecting junkies from overdoses (that is, preventing a free person from making a decision and allowing them live or die with the consequences), than we are in protecting innocent victims, (that is, a person who has no say in the events leading up to such a situation)

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Originally Posted by csu87 View Post
My brother in law is a state trooper in mountains by all the ski resorts and they have seen a huge increase in the number of people driving while high since legalization. The problem is that there is no easy test to see how high you actually are like there is with alcohol, so most people feel they can get away with it. Add to it that not every strain of marijuana affects you the same and you can be fine one moment, and the next, high out of your mind. At least with alcohol, you know you are going to be drunk with 12 beers or 12 shots or 12 drinks etc.
Driving intoxicated is driving intoxicated. The problem isn't the substance, it's the complete lack of personal accountability.
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      03-23-2016, 11:02 PM   #53
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They also hurt people because they can't function at work, loose their job, steal and rob to pay for their habit, and are dead under a bridge 5 yrs later. This has nothing to do with the legality of the drugs. Sounds like a plan.
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      03-23-2016, 11:19 PM   #54
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we should use all that money we spend making criminals out of drug users and put it into rehabilitation and decreasing demand. the way most of you talk i can tell substance abuse has never had a direct impact on you. Alot of guys at my work talk about OD as a cure.......but until its your child you may have a different out look. DEA is waste of money, resources better spent on a cure. Addiction is a disease of the mind and allergy of the body. Alot of people are predisposed to drug use and addiction. but we vilify mental health and stigma the people who ask for help. suicide seems like a likely answer for those with uncontrollable demons. look at the military and PTSD, when they turn to drugs should we abandon them?
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      03-24-2016, 01:58 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamousdiz
we should use all that money we spend making criminals out of drug users and put it into rehabilitation and decreasing demand. the way most of you talk i can tell substance abuse has never had a direct impact on you. Alot of guys at my work talk about OD as a cure.......but until its your child you may have a different out look. DEA is waste of money, resources better spent on a cure. Addiction is a disease of the mind and allergy of the body. Alot of people are predisposed to drug use and addiction. but we vilify mental health and stigma the people who ask for help. suicide seems like a likely answer for those with uncontrollable demons. look at the military and PTSD, when they turn to drugs should we abandon them?
It doesn't sound like legalizing weed and other drugs would be a solution...
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      03-24-2016, 08:03 AM   #56
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It doesn't sound like legalizing weed and other drugs would be a solution...
+1. You would only have huge masses of new addicts needing treatment and being a drain on society.
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      03-24-2016, 08:49 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
It doesn't sound like legalizing weed and other drugs would be a solution...
Perhaps, but again, the point is that the "War on Drugs" creates more problems than it solves. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing.

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+1. You would only have huge masses of new addicts needing treatment and being a drain on society.
I disagree. In fact I think it would go down - I believe a lot of the reason people start using drugs in the first place is because they see it as a way to rebel against society. Take away the idea that doing drugs is edgy or cool and I think you'll be amazed at how much use drops off.
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      03-24-2016, 09:00 AM   #58
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You have the mindset of the college kid. Most people use drugs as a way to escape reality. Feel good. If there was proper education as to the dangers, and societal condemnation vs tolerance it would drop usage dramatically.

Wanna rebel against your parents? Get drunk and throw up on dad. Heroine is a self imposed death sentence.
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      03-24-2016, 09:02 AM   #59
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always been abundantly clear to anyone who actually looked at the chain of events. why else would crack have 100x the penalty of cocaine? Even still today blacks and whites carry marijuana at the same rate but blacks are 4x more likely to be arrested for it. its a disgrace. and for people who say the government is protecting peoples health etc, why is the cheapest food in our country debilitating for health? for example, look at chris christy-he wants to infringe on states rights for health reasons meanwhile he is obese and shortening his lifespan much more than the average drug user(which is nearly ever human being, just different drugs-coffee etc).
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      03-24-2016, 09:04 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
It doesn't sound like legalizing weed and other drugs would be a solution...
There is no evidence that legalizing drugs causes more people to use them, at least not a significant change. A much bigger drug crisis is the over prescription of drugs from doctors.
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      03-24-2016, 09:05 AM   #61
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You blast Christie for wanting to do that and omit Bloomberg for actually doing it. Lol
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      03-24-2016, 09:06 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
You have the mindset of the college kid. Most people use drugs as a way to escape reality. Feel good. If there was proper education as to the dangers, and societal condemnation vs tolerance it would drop usage dramatically.

Wanna rebel against your parents? Get drunk and throw up on dad. Heroine is a self imposed death sentence.
millions of people do the same thing as heroin daily-from pharmaceutical drugs, why no outrage over that? Most of the danger from heroin comes from sharing needles, or what it is cut with. The pills people pop cut that aspect out and because its from a doctor no one has a problem with it.
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      03-24-2016, 09:07 AM   #63
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There is no evidence that legalizing drugs causes more people to use them, at least not a significant change. A much bigger drug crisis is the over prescription of drugs from doctors.
Um, now, thx to the war on drugs. I guess you weren't around in the 80s when cocaine was tearing apart everything, or the 90s when it was Crack. Sure, they are still here, but all but wiped out in comparison.

Watch cocaine cowboys if you want a sample. I saw it first hand. Night and day.
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      03-24-2016, 10:05 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
+1. You would only have huge masses of new addicts needing treatment and being a drain on society.
If was really the case you would see that occurring in places that have decriminalized drugs. Portugal is a good example of what can happen to a society when they get rid of the criminal aspect of drug use.

Question to fundy and bbbbmmww, do you consume alcohol?
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      03-24-2016, 10:07 AM   #65
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Those of you that are against legalization of weed (amongst other drugs), do you also think alcohol should be outlawed?


Edit: Are people implying that if one casually smokes weed, they inevitably end up shooting heroine? Realllly??
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      03-24-2016, 01:30 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
You have the mindset of the college kid. Most people use drugs as a way to escape reality. Feel good. If there was proper education as to the dangers, and societal condemnation vs tolerance it would drop usage dramatically.

Wanna rebel against your parents? Get drunk and throw up on dad. Heroine is a self imposed death sentence.
I mean, I did attend college. Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

I agree that most people continue using drugs, or begin seeking out other drugs as ways to escape reality and feel good, but I believe the first time they try mind-altering substances tends to be because of a desire to rebel (or perhaps, fit in - peer pressure.) Again, excepting the "over prescription induced addiction" scenario I spelled out earlier.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a poor decision process, just noting my understanding of the reality of the situation.
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