Group of NYC bicyclists attack BMW in broad daylight, wild video shows

[cmyx6go]

You Monday morning quarterbacks need to wake the fuck up. Do you remember a few years back the Asian guy who got pulled out of his RR? And was beaten to a pulp by a bunch of crotch rocket riding thugs in NYC? West Side Hwy maybe? I’ve been swarmed by bikers on the highway. I’ve been swarmed by little shits on bicycles doing wheelies in front of me and daring me to hit them. I’d like to slap the shit out of their parents. Fuck you. I’m getting out of there to protect myself and my passengers. I will call police while it is happening but I will not be sorry if someone is hurt in the process. Actions have consequences.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

You Monday morning quarterbacks need to wake the fuck up. Do you remember a few years back the Asian guy who got pulled out of his RR? And was beaten to a pulp by a bunch of crotch rocket riding thugs in NYC? West Side Hwy maybe? I’ve been swarmed by bikers on the highway. I’ve been swarmed by little shits on bicycles doing wheelies in front of me and daring me to hit them. I’d like to slap the shit out of their parents. Fuck you. I’m getting out of there to protect myself and my passengers. I will call police while it is happening but I will not be sorry if someone is hurt in the process. Actions have consequences.

<Mic Dropped>

Nothing more needs to be added to this.
Thank you for putting the glaring light of experience on this vs. all of the "in-theory" BS we've been reading.

[Dlpfcb]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

You Monday morning quarterbacks need to wake the fuck up. Do you remember a few years back the Asian guy who got pulled out of his RR? And was beaten to a pulp by a bunch of crotch rocket riding thugs in NYC? West Side Hwy maybe? I’ve been swarmed by bikers on the highway. I’ve been swarmed by little shits on bicycles doing wheelies in front of me and daring me to hit them. I’d like to slap the shit out of their parents. Fuck you. I’m getting out of there to protect myself and my passengers. I will call police while it is happening but I will not be sorry if someone is hurt in the process. Actions have consequences.

But what if someone gets hurt....haha thank you for this. SPOT ON! Tired of this BS that somehow people try to find a way to somehow find parts that can side to the people doing the assaulting.

[paquet]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

You Monday morning quarterbacks need to wake the fuck up. Do you remember a few years back the Asian guy who got pulled out of his RR? And was beaten to a pulp by a bunch of crotch rocket riding thugs in NYC? West Side Hwy maybe? I’ve been swarmed by bikers on the highway. I’ve been swarmed by little shits on bicycles doing wheelies in front of me and daring me to hit them. I’d like to slap the shit out of their parents. Fuck you. I’m getting out of there to protect myself and my passengers. I will call police while it is happening but I will not be sorry if someone is hurt in the process. Actions have consequences.

What this guy said ^^^
To "Actions have consequences", I will add 3 more:
- your rights end where mine begin (and vice-versa, however, see the next)
- while I will not instigate the 'first strike', my response will be rather draconian
- Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 (or whatever the numbers are)

Also, for those wondering, not a US citizen, not white either.

[Noneya]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Nonsense, no. It's the actual law. Look it up.

And it seems that all of them are over the age of 13 which means that they are responsible for their own actions.

In my state this is plain false. Even cops have to play the "what would a reasonable person do" game. If you have a completely distorted perception of danger and kill someone as a result you WILL go to prison.

Your state's mileage may vary.

[NorCalAthlete]

I'll post a story here from the other side, sort of.

I used to ride with a large group of motorcyclists down in TX near Austin. We went on a group ride to Hot Import Nights once, had a good time looking around, then left. Vast majority of us were active duty military; a significant number of us had Texas CCWs. On our way back, at night, a car took offense to our loud bikes and attempted to run us off the road (2 lane freeway, I35 > 195 north out of Austin). We were riding in a staggered formation, just cruising in 1 lane, but were passing most people (hey, sportbikes are sportbikes). He let the first few go past then swerved at the next ones. We avoided an accident, and some people squirted around him on the other side, then he started zig zagging and brake-checking us till one guy pulled up along side and fired a warning shot in front of his car (nothing but open fields, no real concerns over the bullet hitting anything). Dude stayed in his lane, and the guy who pulled his gun held it on the car as everyone else zipped around. The car tailed us all the way back into town with several of us keeping a cautious eye on it, but no further aggression was displayed on either side.

When we got to the gas station in town we all pulled in....and the driver of the car pulled in behind us, raging at us about attempted murder, how his pregnant wife was in the front seat, how we were all riding dangerously and recklessly, etc. Said he'd called the cops.

What he didn't know: we had it all on video, as many of us were riding with GoPros. Witness statements from 30+ people identifying him as the instigator, with even the dude's wife admitting that he'd brake checked us "to get us to obey the speed laws and stop riding recklessly", and he didn't win that one. Cops put him in handcuffs, wife had to take the car home, none of us got arrested or anything just questioned. Cops asked who had the gun, about a dozen of us raised our hands, he asked ok well who was the one who fired and pointed it at the driver (again, night time, we couldn't see who else was in the car hence didn't fire at the car itself). Guy who fired stepped up, talked to the cop, showed his license and everything, and combined with our witness statements that was it. Cop took down contact info if needed for future reference but as far as I know nothing ever came of it at least not on our end that I heard of.

However, that's a level of discipline I don't expect many to have on the road when road raging. On either side. Mobs gonna mob. Drivers gonna drive aggressively. In theory, things SHOULD be able to be resolved without any violence. In practice, SOMETIMES drawing a gun is justified. SOMETIMES, it can stop things before someone gets hurt, and without actually shooting anyone.

DGUs (defensive gun uses) where nobody actually is shot or hurt, but where the presence of a gun being known cuts short an encounter, number, at the low estimate, in the hundreds of thousands of times per year - and up to perhaps a few million times a year. This is not widely known nor advertised, because the powers that be deem it unworthy of being widely known or advertised.

Final note :

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Noneya

In my state this is plain false. Even cops have to play the "what would a reasonable person do" game. If you have a completely distorted perception of danger and kill someone as a result you WILL go to prison.

Your state's mileage may vary.

Why don't you look up your states minimum age of criminal responsibility. You may be surprised.

For most federal laws it's 11 years of age.

[Noneya]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Why don't you look up your states minimum age of criminal responsibility. You may be surprised.

For most federal laws it's 11 years of age.

I may well be, but what does that have to do with the discussion of killing while scared?

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Noneya

I may well be, but what does that have to do with the discussion of killing while scared?

You have it backwards.

There are consequences for bad behavior. It seems like you are the type that believes in coddling criminals and making excuses for their behavior.

And I'm not scared, I'm prudent. I've had guns pointed in my face before. Go tell that crap to someone else.

[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by Noneya

I may well be, but what does that have to do with the discussion of killing while scared?

https://ojjdp.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/...y/surv_6a.html



A sad part of inner city life is that some gangs (not saying that's what's happening in this BMW attack, no idea just putting out info per your question) intentionally have some of the most heinous acts carried out by their younger members, knowing they will receive a lesser punishment if caught and be able to rejoin the ranks sooner once released from prison. There are additional psychological factors such as people being less likely to immediately identify a youth as a threat, public outcry against the victim if they DO defend themselves, etc.

So...that can be rolling around in the back of someone's mind if there's a mob of kids beating on their car with bicycles. It's not a huge step from there to bricks or rocks being thrown, and if there are elderly in the vehicle a single blow from a thrown rock could kill them.

[Noneya]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

You have it backwards.

There are consequences for bad behavior. It seems like you are the type that believes in coddling criminals and making excuses for their behavior.

And I'm not scared, I'm prudent. I've had guns pointed in my face before. Go tell that crap to someone else.

Great non-sequitur. You said "And I might add that the determination of danger or potential thereof, can only be made, solely, by the target of the danger/potential danger." I said that's dumb. You said law disagrees. I said not true - my state agrees with me. After that I don't know where your mind went.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Noneya

Great non-sequitur. You said "And I might add that the determination of danger or potential thereof, can only be made, solely, by the target of the danger/potential danger." I said that's dumb. You said law disagrees. I said not true - my state agrees with me. After that I don't know where your mind went.

What is the law in your state? You have provided no evidence of what it is.


Was the Fear of Harm Reasonable?

Sometimes self-defense is justified even if the perceived aggressor didn’t actually mean the perceived victim any harm. What matters in these situations is whether a “reasonable person” in the same situation would have perceived an immediate threat of physical harm. The concept of the “reasonable person” is a legal conceit that is subject to differing interpretations in practice, but it is the legal system’s best tool to determine whether a person’s perception of imminent danger justified the use of protective force.

[Noneya]

Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete

https://ojjdp.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/...y/surv_6a.html



A sad part of inner city life is that some gangs (not saying that's what's happening in this BMW attack, no idea just putting out info per your question) intentionally have some of the most heinous acts carried out by their younger members, knowing they will receive a lesser punishment if caught and be able to rejoin the ranks sooner once released from prison. There are additional psychological factors such as people being less likely to immediately identify a youth as a threat, public outcry against the victim if they DO defend themselves, etc.

So...that can be rolling around in the back of someone's mind if there's a mob of kids beating on their car with bicycles. It's not a huge step from there to bricks or rocks being thrown, and if there are elderly in the vehicle a single blow from a thrown rock could kill them.

Thanks. I'm not at all objecting that this is scary - it is. I am objecting to a statement that MKSixer made that only you can determine what's scary.

That imo is a very bad stance. Adding "what a reasonable person might find scary" is important. E.g. sure seems like plenty of people are scared of black people to give a crass example.

[gjm120]

Thanks OP for this thread. Drivel spit out by the likes of David70 and Noneya make me glad the politics thread was stopped.

[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by Noneya

Thanks. I'm not at all objecting that this is scary - it is. I am objecting to a statement that MKSixer made that only you can determine what's scary.

That imo is a very bad stance. Adding "what a reasonable person might find scary" is important. E.g. sure seems like plenty of people are scared of black people to give a crass example.

Fair point, I gotcha. At the end of the day though it comes down to articulating your fears - even if it may not be deemed "reasonable", which is what the courts will determine.

For example : someone who's a Krav Maga expert, who stands 6'4", weighs 250 lbs of solid muscle, etc, may not think that facing 2 youths unarmed is a reasonable fear. Contrast that with someone who is 5'1", 100 lbs, with a heart condition so they don't work out much, and facing even a single assailant is a reasonable fear.

It's a very large grey area of what someone might find scary. And even the Big Bad Krav Expert may be able to articulate facing 2 attackers as being scary, saying something like "well it's one thing when you train on the mats in a controlled environment for sport, it's another entirely to be menaced on the street with no gloves, no mats, and your wife helpless in the car - if one of them occupied me the other may have gone for her, so I felt I needed to defend myself as rapidly as possible to end threat."

Bottom line - there's some truth to his statement that only you can determine what's scary. Hell, look at trained Marines and Army soldiers who freeze up in their first firefight - and they've had far more training than your average citizen when it comes to managing their fear (not talking about firearms training here, as most gun owning citizens actually have far more training than most military folks).

And if there's one thing we can say for certain - over the last 3 years, any standard of what the average person finds "reasonable" has gone right out the window.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Noneya

Thanks. I'm not at all objecting that this is scary - it is. I am objecting to a statement that MKSixer made that only you can determine what's scary.

That imo is a very bad stance. Adding "what a reasonable person might find scary" is important. E.g. sure seems like plenty of people are scared of black people to give a crass example.

You have your opinion, I have the law.

Cheers-mk

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

You Monday morning quarterbacks need to wake the fuck up. Do you remember a few years back the Asian guy who got pulled out of his RR? And was beaten to a pulp by a bunch of crotch rocket riding thugs in NYC? West Side Hwy maybe? I’ve been swarmed by bikers on the highway. I’ve been swarmed by little shits on bicycles doing wheelies in front of me and daring me to hit them. I’d like to slap the shit out of their parents. Fuck you. I’m getting out of there to protect myself and my passengers. I will call police while it is happening but I will not be sorry if someone is hurt in the process. Actions have consequences.

Yep. The driver's name is Alexian Lien. The unfortunate thing if anyone has followed this story to the bitter end is even though many agree Alexian did the right thing to protect his family, he got fired by his employer. Protecting his family (wife and two year old daughter) from a bunch of wanna be tough guys on sport bikes thinking they're tough $hit and would never set foot on a track.

The fool that got run over by Alexian's RR had a Go Fund Me set up for him along with a FB page demanding justice. Never mind the guy didn't have a license to operate a motorcycle and from what I remember already has a checkered past.

I'm an avid sport bike rider and I can't stand these M'Fers.

[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Yep. The driver's name is Alexian Lien. The unfortunate thing if anyone has followed this story to the bitter end is even though many agree Alexian did the right thing to protect his family, he got fired by his employer. Protecting his family (wife and two year old daughter) from a bunch of wanna be tough guys on sport bikes thinking they're tough $hit and would never set foot on a track.

The fool that got run over by Alexian's RR had a Go Fund Me set up for him along with a FB page demanding justice. Never mind the guy didn't have a license to operate a motorcycle and from what I remember already has a checkered past.

I'm an avid sport bike rider and I can't stand these M'Fers.

As I recall one of the guys bashing in his rear window was an undercover police officer as well.

[Noneya]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

You have your opinion, I have the law.

Cheers-mk

You don't. Take Florida - not my state but since they're notorious for their stand your ground law, I assume they're about as extreme as it gets. This is the statute:

https://codes.findlaw.com/fl/title-x...t-776-012.html

Notice how "reasonably believes" is sprinkled everywhere. If you kill someone because you have unreasonable fears you will not be saved by those laws. Refer to my previous post if you can't think of an example of an unreasonable fear.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete

As I recall one of the guys bashing in his rear window was an undercover police officer as well.

There was an NYP undercover cop in the riding group. I don't think he was actively involved in assaulting Alexian; either his person or his vehicle. But the only thing that came out of the NYP investigation that I recall was the officer did nothing to prevent the assault or bothered to identify himself immediately as being there.

The whole thing just stank to high hell. Not to pull the race card, but I bet if Alexian wasn't Asian, that things would have been totally different.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Noneya

You don't. Take Florida - not my state but since they're notorious for their stand your ground law, I assume they're about as extreme as it gets. This is the statute:

https://codes.findlaw.com/fl/title-x...t-776-012.html

Notice how "reasonably believes" is sprinkled everywhere. If you kill someone because you have unreasonable fears you will not be saved by those laws. Refer to my previous post if you can't think of an example of an unreasonable fear.

It doesn't say a person, it says THAT person. This is where you are incorrect. It is written to protect the individual in question, not a consensus from a group of people on what may be reasonable.

Read the statute in its entirety and don't take out-of-context quotes to suit your opinion.

I the person in question sincerely believes that they are threatened whether that belief is accurate or not, then the use of force to defend a life is justified.

[Noneya]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

It doesn't say a person, it says THAT person. This is where you are incorrect. It is written to protect the individual in question, not a consensus from a group of people on what may be reasonable.

Read the statute in its entirety and don't take out-of-context quotes to suit your opinion.

I the person in question sincerely believes that they are threatened whether that belief is accurate or not, then the use of force to defend a life is justified.

Sincere belief is not the same as a reasonable belief. You will go to prison if you kill a random passerby because you're sincerely scared of black people.