Diabetic question related on a food item

[jaye944]

OK,
I've been diabetic for years, given the below and on "general" meals would appreciate your advice.

I have found an "example" of a food which fits,

so I find my blood sugars stay LOW and stable when I get ENOUGH carbs, if that carb has a lot of protein and/or fat the carb spikes less, I don't get a rebound and my sugar stabilizes, starving doesn't work, also makes me hungry, I then binge eat crap.

so, "apparently" my target per MAIN meal is no more than 70gms carbs
we'll say 2500 cals/day.

I'm on some newer meds which expels the excess sugar in the urine, nothing excess stores as fat, so actually I've lost weight.

So take this as a meal

Egg and Bacon Bagel (with lettuce, toms, mayo)
I've calculated for this meal

22gms protein
53gms carbs
22gms fat
500cals

I'm well within my target

"why" can I not have a "sugary bloated" drink say 70gms sugar, instead
of a meal, I'd still be in my zone and withing my calories, 500-700cals (i'm guessing)

Of course the answer is it's not healthy.

So I'm trying to play and convince myself, every now and again, I can have a binge, despite my sugar issues

What could I pair with the bagel, to make it say a more balanced meal?

Thanks

J

[arkie6]

How is your bloodsugar if you eat essentially no carbs other than green leafy vegetables? Eating plenty of meats, eggs, and low carb cheeses but no starchy foods?

[UncleWede]

IF you look at some of the "prepared" food items, like Glucerna shakes. They have the carb content, but include both COMPLEX carbs, as well as fiber, fats, and protein (in general)

The issue with a 45g carb of soda is that they are simple carbs, which spike into your bloodstream in a few minutes. Your already challenged insulin response is further taxed by this spike.

(Insulin-dependent for 35+ years)

[shmad]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

IF you look at some of the "prepared" food items, like Glucerna shakes. They have the carb content, but include both COMPLEX carbs, as well as fiber, fats, and protein (in general)

The issue with a 45g carb of soda is that they are simple carbs, which spike into your bloodstream in a few minutes. Your already challenged insulin response is further taxed by this spike.

(Insulin-dependent for 35+ years)

THIS. complex vs simple carbs.

[bucketfoot]

It's not perfect, but a quick way to look at this is to compare how much of the carb count is made up of Dietary Fiber vs Sugars.

[walterbrooke]

So essentially you are calculating Net Carbs which is total amount of carbs and then subtract fiber?

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by walterbrooke

So essentially you are calculating Net Carbs which is total amount of carbs and then subtract fiber?

That is part of how the "glycemic index" of food is determined, IIRC. That's not normally included on your nutrition labels though.

[Ric in RVA]

I am using Dr. Fungs intermittent fasting for weight loss.

He has some strong opinions on fasting and its affect on insulin resistance and diabetes.

Just for my health..not diabetic, but 5'10 265 so headed that way. In 5 weeks now 235. Mostly through zeroing out stuff in packages, bread, sweets and intermittent fasting.

Anywhere from 24 to 48 hours.

Never felt better.

Here is a link but he can be found all over youtube.

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/in-depth/...eutic-fasting/

[Mr Carrots]

I dont get it, if you're diabetic why eat any carbs at all beyond veggies?

I eat 50g a day, not a meal, that's more than enough to fuel my lifting workouts.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Mr Carrots

I dont get it, if you're diabetic why eat any carbs at all beyond veggies?

I eat 50g a day, not a meal, that's more than enough to fuel my lifting workouts.

What about cutting out most carbs? I am doing Keto (no more than 20g of carbs a day). Have lost a little fat, but have completely lost that carb crash.

And not all carbs are equal. Far, far, far from it.

[jaye944]

I think I understand where this is going, so, I've never done that... the closest I have done is not eat LOL, I had discussed with my dietitian. A higher protein, low carb diet, but though they didn't say I shouldn't, they gave 2 issues

* Higher protein, not good for weight, Kidney function and kidney stones
* Lower carbs not good, due to rebounding

I have managed to cut down my insulin on the new drug combination
(Trulicity, Invokana & Metformin) so I'm less hungry, but a hell-la lot more dehydrated.

IF I can get my day started ok, (my fasting blood sugar) I'm fine all day
It's getting that figure below 7 mmol, which if I eat something decent at night I can achieve it.

I understand "carbs" or the type of carb (GI) is the issue

Originally Posted by arkie6

How is your bloodsugar if you eat essentially no carbs other than green leafy vegetables? Eating plenty of meats, eggs, and low carb cheeses but no starchy foods?

[jaye944]

Yes,

I do a lot of label reading,
I also found say if something has a total carb count of say 30gms, I was told if there is 10gms of fiber in it as well, I can deduct that,making it 20gms.

so for it to be "stable" I should have a "certain amount" of fiber in with the carb, chocolate cake is a better choice than say chocolate ice cream

Thats why my example of the bagel BELT, there is fiber from the bread despite the bagel being loaded with carbs.

Originally Posted by bucketfoot

It's not perfect, but a quick way to look at this is to compare how much of the carb count is made up of Dietary Fiber vs Sugars.

[jaye944]

YES that, that's what I only recently found out.

I always check to see how much fiber is in the thing, problem is the high carb things I wanna eat are low in fiber DOH! LOLZ

Originally Posted by walterbrooke

So essentially you are calculating Net Carbs which is total amount of carbs and then subtract fiber?

[jaye944]

DUDE.... that was another reason for the post, my old chiro, gave me a copy on PDF, I started reading it.

I need to get my insulin intake down (actually it is now since the new treatment almost halved)

As it's a viscous circle, more insulin to deal with the "sugar problem" which puts on weight, insulin makes you hungry eat more, more weight, need more insulin.

I'm managing to get down to 20units in the evening, (came down from nearly double that ) but then your balancing your meals and need the post-postprandial figures to be good as well as fasting

Originally Posted by Ric in RVA

I am using Dr. Fungs intermittent fasting for weight loss.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/in-depth/...eutic-fasting/

[Mr Carrots]

The unfortunate truth is that many dietitians are less qualified than my dogs when it comes to giving out useful dietary advice, and certainly don't stay on top of any studies that might contradict their current belief system.

check www.alanaragon.com for an exhaustive list of peer reviewed studies, but the simple version is that you need to replace carbs with healthy fat as an energy source, you cant just cut carbs and not replace them with fat.

You don't need to go ''high'' protein, imo no-one really does (Mike Mentzer almost beat Arnie in the 80's eating about 75g protein a day) but unless you're legitimately kidney impaired, the experts telling you about 'dangers' of high protein comes from them utterly misinterpreting eGFR and creatinine numbers in athletes.

Just work out your daily calorie burn, go under that number about 200 calories (or more if you have willpower) and eat lots of healthy fats to make up the calories from say 70 grams of protien and 50 grams of carbs (avocado, fish, meat, some nuts are ok etc)

GI is virtually meaningless BTW, unless you plan on just eating that particular carb by itself as a meal. What you consume with it will affect how it's absorbed

Originally Posted by jaye944

I think I understand where this is going, so, I've never done that... the closest I have done is not eat LOL, I had discussed with my dietitian. A higher protein, low carb diet, but though they didn't say I shouldn't, they gave 2 issues

* Higher protein, not good for weight, Kidney function and kidney stones
* Lower carbs not good, due to rebounding

I have managed to cut down my insulin on the new drug combination
(Trulicity, Invokana & Metformin) so I'm less hungry, but a hell-la lot more dehydrated.

IF I can get my day started ok, (my fasting blood sugar) I'm fine all day
It's getting that figure below 7 mmol, which if I eat something decent at night I can achieve it.

I understand "carbs" or the type of carb (GI) is the issue

[UncleWede]

You took a meal bolus near 40 units AND orals??? No wonder you can't eat less than 70g at bed

I'm solely on insulin. I'm overweight at 200lbs.

My sliding scale starts at 12 units per meal and I shoot for 40-50g with a meal. I take a long acting shot of 22 at bed

Change ur mentality and bolus to comfortable meals, not eat to artificial bolus amount

[jaye944]

Because (and that was what I asked a long time ago)

In a diabetic, "generally" you have to balance your carb intake.

101:
More carbs, more insulin needed
Less carbs, less insulin needed

You work out you "insulin" intake from your guesstimate carbs, I don't do that as I'm on just 1 long acting shot. BUT if I don't eat enough, I'll crash, and go hypo. If I eat too much, my sugars rise, (with no natural insulin to deal with it) I go HYPER, I don't crash, but long term not good.

So, as you well put, eat less carbs..

So... I check my blood sugar before I go to bed, it's 7 (mmols let say)
I dont eat anything, wake up in the morning, check my blood sugar, it's 12.

Wait , what, why is there more sugar... BECAUSE like a dummy I forgot what diabetics called "Dawn phenomenon"

During the night, your body still uses sugar/carbs, IF that 7, drops to say a 4 or a 3, your body has a self protect mechanism, the kidneys, kick out some sugar, to stop you from going hypo.

Which is why, if you eat before bed, that blood sugar, though a 7 or an 8, will not drop, due to the carbs in your system, (a banana, yogurt, oatmeal etc)

I've woken up in the middle of the night in a hypo, and hungry like a MOFO,

same kinda effect during the day, generally, IF you don't eat enough carbs, and your blood sugar drops, your kidney kicks in and you BG's go through the roof.

It is a total mindf**k trying to deal with it in reality.

I always equate Diabetes to Rabies.

I am scared to eat carbs, but get hungry and HAVE to eat it.

I also feel it is a similar feeling to Bulimia, I have had bad issues with food,
I use food to hurt, I eat what I shouldn't because I know the effects, since I was a kid and being bullied and going through abuse, that food, love hate relationship screwed me over, (don't worry I got counselling for it)

Originally Posted by Mr Carrots

I dont get it, if you're diabetic why eat any carbs at all beyond veggies?

I eat 50g a day, not a meal, that's more than enough to fuel my lifting workouts.

[jaye944]

No,

ok, I've only ever taken a BASAL, used to take 28U bi daily.
no-orals (about 10 years ago) worked well

Now I'm on a 20U BASAL (in the evening) plus orals,
(Lantus = long acting, with the 1x weekly, trulicity, and 1x daily invokana,
1000mg metformin twice a day)

The Trulicity really made the weight melt off, but I'm usually nausea's several times a week,for an hour or so and dehydrated every day..

Hence my diet pop addiction

Originally Posted by UncleWede

You took a meal bolts near 40 units AND orals??? No wonder you can't eat less than 70g at bed

I'm solely on insulin. I'm overweight at 200lbs.

My sliding scale starts at 12 units per meal and I shoot for 40-50g with a meal. I take a long acting shot of 22 at bed

Change ur mentality and bolus to comfortable meals, not eat to artificial bolus amount

[UncleWede]

Dawning is not a response to hypos. Dawning is controlled release to prepare ur body to wake up

I don't know mmol numbers I do mg/dL. So a bedtime reading of 140 almost always ends up 240 at 6am the next morning. Even 2am 160 will be that 240 range at 6. I've been unable to time the long acting to address that dawning the past several month

[jaye944]

***UPDATE***

I had a BELT bagel, at about 1am (after my radio show) woke up under 7.... WOOHOO
6.9

It's working out that magic number of carbs, before bed,

[jaye944]

The dawn phenomenon is the early-morning increase in blood sugar (glucose) — usually between 2 a.m. and 8 a.m. in us folks. It's also closely related to the Somogyi effect.
All diabetics get this to some extent or the other.

Some more than others, inherently, if your sugars are on the low side, before bed and you ain't eaten anything, your gonna be having a bad time during the night.

I have a spreadsheet, of, how many carbs to eat before bed depending on my numbers.

I generally find, eat more at bedtime, better numbers in the morning

sorry... eat more of the "right" thing

and now as it's nearly 10pm, off to have a snack

PS

THANKS ALL>.................................MUCHO APPRECIATED ALL your replies

[arkie6]

An eye opening book I read almost 20 years ago was "Dr. Bernstein’s Diabetes Solution". I highly recommend it.

From http://www.diabetes-book.com/ :

Diagnosed with type 1 diabetes in 1946 at the age of 12, Dr. Richard K. Bernstein never set out to be a doctor. Not only that but according to statistics from the American Diabetes Association, he should have been long dead by now.

That he is very much alive and, in fact, in excellent health, can be attributed to two primary causes. The first is that he was originally trained as an engineer and attacked his disease as a problem to be solved and not a condition to be treated. The second is that he was fortunate enough to still to be alive when the first blood glucose meters arrived on the scene.

He is the first diabetic ever to monitor his own blood sugars.

Google "Dr. Richard K. Bernstein" for more info.