"Hot V" Engine Design

[mirob]

I was wondering who the first car manufacturer was to bring the "Hot V" engine design to the mainstream market. I know that it's Ferrari's innovation as they were the first ones to use it in their F1 cars in the 80s.

I was always under the impression that it was BMW with the N63, but any time a Hot V car is reviewed, they make it sound like that particular car is the first one to apply this "groundbreaking" engine design.

I know that today, Porsche, Mercedes, and Audi have adopted this engine design, just wondering who pioneered it in road cars.

I find it odd and annoying that no credit is ever given to BMW when this engine design is discussed in current vehicles, so I'm wondering if it's origins are unknown, or if it's just ignorance.

Any thoughts?

[Dackelone]

I did some quick Googling...

I seem to recall BMW being the first with a production hot v. But MB and then Audi were "hot" on BMW's heels. I think MB routes the cylinder pairing differently for better sound pulses. Like you said Ferrari was first in F1 with their Hot V engine in the 1980's.

Dackel



Ferrari's Hot-V...



What Is A Hot V Turbo Engine Layout And What Benefits Does It Have?
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wha...-does-it-have/

Everyone seems to forget that BMW was the first one to introduce this with the F10 M5

“After first being introduced through Ferrari’s Formula 1 programme in the early 1980s”
I’m sorry, what was that?

Actually it was first introduced in the 5 series GT first with an N63 engine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N63

The BMW N63 is a twin-turbo DOHC V8 engine which has been in production since 2008 to present. It is the world's first production car engine to use a "hot-vee" layout, with the turbochargers located inside the "V" of the engine. It is also BMW's first V8 engine to use direct injection. The N63 was launched in the 2008 BMW X6 xDrive50i.[1]

BMW's N63 hot v engine...

[mirob]

Strange how you don't see a product like that for x-amount of years (or really ever in a production vehicle) and then 3-4 manufacturers have a similar product within a couple of years of each other...I suppose BMW should be flattered...

[wrecked2001]

What do you consider "Hot V"? Powerstroke diesels have plumbed the turbos within the "V" for years.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by wrecked2001

What do you consider "Hot V"? Powerstroke diesels have plumbed the turbos within the "V" for years.

I think the definition is pretty straightforward. If the turbo/s is/are nestled inside the V, the engine is considered a Hot V engine. The only question that remains is, how many years has Ford been doing this? The N63 has been around since 2008.

EDIT: This article, dated 2009, is discussing the "new" design of the aforementioned engine. Not sure about the exact time that engine was put into production.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/08...el-engine.html

Reverse Flow Design

The Scorpion’s architecture shares several key traits with GM's indefinitely postponed 4.5-liter Duramax V-8 diesel engine. Most notably, the intake and exhaust flow through the cylinder heads is reversed when compared to a conventional diesel engine, with the exhaust exiting directly into the engine’s turbo that sits in the engine's valley, mounted between V-style cylinder banks.

[wrecked2001]

Ford seems to only put the turbos is the V, but the exhaust routing is traditional.

[desmo01]

Ford first did it in the 60s at Indy

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by mirob

Strange how you don't see a product like that for x-amount of years (or really ever in a production vehicle) and then 3-4 manufacturers have a similar product within a couple of years of each other...I suppose BMW should be flattered...

Emissions standards have become very strict recently... so that has something to do with it. Have reverse cylinder heads... where the exhaust sits on the inside of the "V" and the intakes are on the outside helps have a very short heat path from exhaust to turbo to cats. This is what helps makes a modern car run clean on cold starts - quickly.

I remember years ago(in the 90's) the EPA would bag a car's cold start cycle... it was called a "505" test... where they would measure a car's emissions for the first five minutes and five seconds. Not sure IF this is still done... but I am sure there are even more stricter standards for modern cars now a days.

Dackel

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by mirob

Strange how you don't see a product like that for x-amount of years (or really ever in a production vehicle) and then 3-4 manufacturers have a similar product within a couple of years of each other...I suppose BMW should be flattered...

Emissions standards have become very strict recently... so that has something to do with it. Have reverse cylinder heads... where the exhaust sits on the inside of the "V" and the intakes are on the outside helps have a very short heat path from exhaust to turbo to cats. This is what helps makes a modern car run clean on cold starts - quickly.

I remember years ago(in the 90's) the EPA would bag a car's cold start cycle... it was called a "505" test... where they would measure a car's emissions for the first five minutes and five seconds. Not sure IF this is still done... but I am sure there are even more stricter standards for modern cars now a days.

Dackel

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by mirob

Strange how you don't see a product like that for x-amount of years (or really ever in a production vehicle) and then 3-4 manufacturers have a similar product within a couple of years of each other...I suppose BMW should be flattered...

Emissions standards have become very strict recently... so that has something to do with it. Have reverse cylinder heads... where the exhaust sits on the inside of the "V" and the intakes are on the outside helps have a very short heat path from exhaust to turbo to cats. This is what helps makes a modern car run clean on cold starts - quickly.

I remember years ago(in the 90's) the EPA would bag a car's cold start cycle... it was called a "505" test... where they would measure a car's emissions for the first five minutes and five seconds. Not sure IF this is still done... but I am sure there are even more stricter standards for modern cars now a days.

Dackel