BMW E60 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com  
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  

Go Back   BMW E60 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-14-2024, 07:55 AM   #1
DB_Cooper
Second Lieutenant
United_States
593
Rep
299
Posts

Drives: F87
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

“If you want a manual M, you need to buy it now.”

BMW Says Manual Gearboxes Are Finished, Even For M Cars

BMW board member Frank Weber says sales figures mean it no longer makes sense to develop manual transmissions

February 14, 2024 at 07:54

BMW Says Manual Gearboxes Are Finished, Even For M Cars
by Brad Anderson

Frank Weber, a key member of BMW’s board, says the writing is on the wall for the brand’s manual transmissions and that includes its enthusiast-oriented M models.

Automotive executives have been saying the days of the stick shift are numbered for years and while there are still quite a few options on the market, the numbers are dwindling. BMW has been one of the last holdouts in the luxury segment, still offering buyers of the M2, M3, M4, and more recently, the Z4 M40i, the opportunity to row their own gears, while both Mercedes and Audi have killed off the manual.

However, during a recent interview with Italian publication Quattroruote, Frank Weber said “it’s over” for the brand’s manual models, noting that the sales figures for them don’t justify the development costs.

BMW Says Manual Gearboxes Are Finished, Even For M Cars

Weber did not specify an exact date for when BMW will axe all of its manual options but it could be soon with him adding, “If you want a manual M, you need to buy it now.”

“They are fun products, but let’s be honest, the volumes are getting smaller and smaller, and so it doesn’t make sense to develop them anymore,” he said.

Interestingly, Weber’s statements come just a few weeks after BMW unveiled the 2025 Z4 M40i with the option of a six-speed manual and confirmed that it will be sold in North America. This marks the first time the G29 Z4 has been sold with a manual in the U.S. and comes two years after the closely related Toyota Supra was made available with a six-speed.

Demand for BMW’s manuals proved strong in the U.S. last year, accounting for roughly 20% of all M3 and M4s sold as well as over half of M2 sales. Despite these figures, they’re apparently not enough to convince BMW of the long-term viability of its manuals.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/02/bm...nual-are-over/
Appreciate 0
      02-14-2024, 08:21 AM   #2
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY
Banned
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY's Avatar
No_Country
4995
Rep
4,139
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (1)

well writing is on the wall, death of ICE will go hand in hand with death of gears
Appreciate 2
      02-14-2024, 08:23 AM   #3
BMWCCA1
BMW Owner Since 1971
2245
Rep
1,403
Posts

Drives: 1964 700 Sport Cabriolet
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Central Virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2013 BMW 128i  [10.00]
They're looking at this all backward.

If they made fun, light, quick, great handling cars with manual transmissions they'd find the market.

But when you make only over-powered, heavy, luxury cars for rich folks, you reap what you sow. Just sticking a manual in such cars is not really what people want. Nor is it even appropriate.

Go back to the 1M if you want to find your market. Or even my 128i M-sport stick, which could be the last 4-wheeled BMW I ever buy!
Appreciate 10
DanG10547.50
eugenebmw1396.50
XMetal1125.00
Polo088161602.50
Tuxedo1398.50
noemon37.00
      02-14-2024, 08:46 AM   #4
Rafichicago
Lieutenant
Rafichicago's Avatar
United_States
699
Rep
595
Posts

Drives: 2018 M5 2009 E63AMG Wagon
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Chicago IL

iTrader: (0)

I think it’s lost cause here unfortunately majority of brand new car buyers are so excited about new technology that cars become smartphones on wheels. While there are still few enthusiasts it is simply not enough to keep some models alive, and sales figures show that. This will lead to high prices on used car market in those. Low demand but low supply as well. Unfortunately for those few interested. Bmw has been considered premium brand for years. They will simply not make another simple car without modern gimmicks. All the automotive media would bash such car for not being up to modern standards and that would lead to poor sales. Look at cars like MB CLS or BMW 8 series. When tested they are pointing at low rear headroom… Who in their right mind would buy any of those for rear headroom ? Road and track and other automotive magazines will point it out like it’s their biggest discovery. Right Sherlock. Keep them coming.
My point is this. Market moved on in the direction enthusiasts do not like and it will continue to do so. Meanwhile we will have to pay premium for what we like to drive.
Appreciate 3
      02-14-2024, 08:59 AM   #5
tracer bullet
Brigadier General
tracer bullet's Avatar
United_States
2359
Rep
3,513
Posts

Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Saint Paul, MN

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
Go back to the 1M if you want to find your market.
I wish they would! I'm positive it'll never happen even before this and similar articles about it. I'm amazed that the Z4 will end up with a manual in it and it's why I am on my dealer's list for (according to them at least) the 1st allocation they get. Love my 1-er but after 13 years kind of ready for something new. The Z4 comes pretty close to fulfilling that list (fun, light, quick, good handling, manual and I might add inline 6 and RWD).

Last edited by tracer bullet; 02-14-2024 at 09:36 AM..
Appreciate 1
      02-14-2024, 09:32 AM   #6
tturedraider
Major General
tturedraider's Avatar
United_States
4953
Rep
6,222
Posts

Drives: 2018 340i M Sport
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago, Edgewater (via Texas & Tennessee)

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
This contradicts virtually everything we’ve been reading from BMW recently.
__________________
https://youtu.be/-ay-8p2p29w
www.bmwcca.org
member #388003 - Use me as a referral
& you could win a one day ///M Driving School!!

___________________________________________
Appreciate 3
      02-14-2024, 10:31 AM   #7
NickyC
Lieutenant General
NickyC's Avatar
17423
Rep
10,640
Posts

Drives: M4 CS. Former G82, x2 F82, F80
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Jacked out of my mind

iTrader: (23)

For the rest of my life, manual and ice cars will still be available (if only used). I feel sorry for future generations, but oh well.
Appreciate 6
eugenebmw1396.50
pingar0.00
XMetal1125.00
V-Eight791.50
      02-14-2024, 10:32 AM   #8
jkoral
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
1019
Rep
1,963
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 LBB 6MT
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MA

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
This contradicts virtually everything we’ve been reading from BMW recently.
Like the Z4 getting a manual for 2025 (from the Supra).

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...-transmission/

Got to love the name of the package: Handschalter
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow11459.00
      02-14-2024, 10:47 AM   #9
SpencerC_6MT
Second Lieutenant
SpencerC_6MT's Avatar
United_States
194
Rep
238
Posts

Drives: '17 M240i 6MT
Join Date: May 2017
Location: San Diego, CA /// Tuscaloosa, AL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2017 BMW M240I  [0.00]
We knew the G87 would be the last holdout for years now. I wouldn't be surprised if his remarks are specifically a nod to Euro customers; those emissions standards are tough enough to meet with a twin-turbo 6 and heavily-overdriven 8-speed. The poor manual turns 3000 revs at highway speed, and there's not enough money in it to develop new ratios (or a 7-speed for that matter). Wouldn't be surprised if Euro 7 is the end of manual M2/3/4 in Europe. Given the sales figures, they'll keep making 'em for North America until the G87 meets its demise.
__________________
2017 BMW M240i 6MT Slicktop | Wavetrac 3.46:1 Limited-Slip Diff - DinanTRONICS Sport Boost Controller - H&R Sport Springs - Millway Street Camber Plates - Agency Power Intake w/ Paradigm Engineering Turbo Inlet
Appreciate 2
      02-14-2024, 10:56 AM   #10
Westside Guy
Brigadier General
Westside Guy's Avatar
United_States
5622
Rep
4,348
Posts

Drives: 2022 Z4 M40i, 2021 228i GC
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Hallandale Beach, FL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkoral View Post
Like the Z4 getting a manual for 2025 (from the Supra).

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...-transmission/

Got to love the name of the package: Handschalter
According to BMW and the blogs they aren’t used the Supra’s MT and the one they are using was designed just for the G29. 😉
Appreciate 1
jkoral1019.00
      02-14-2024, 11:33 AM   #11
strohw
Captain
439
Rep
612
Posts

Drives: 19 Versys 1000, 20 KTM 690 SMC
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westside Guy View Post
According to BMW and the blogs they aren’t used the Supra’s MT and the one they are using was designed just for the G29. 😉
That's not a good thing.
Appreciate 0
      02-14-2024, 11:36 AM   #12
Westside Guy
Brigadier General
Westside Guy's Avatar
United_States
5622
Rep
4,348
Posts

Drives: 2022 Z4 M40i, 2021 228i GC
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Hallandale Beach, FL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by strohw View Post
That's not a good thing.
Try reading some of the blogs where they test drove the MT Z4. They all raved about it and gave it very high marks! 👍🏻
Appreciate 1
      02-14-2024, 12:02 PM   #13
DocL
Captain
DocL's Avatar
United_States
1927
Rep
868
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Delray Beach

iTrader: (2)

It's no surprise, but the the day the Miata is no longer available with a MT is the beginning of the end.
__________________
2018 F80 M3. YMB/BLK. ZCP. Three Pedals.
"Education will never be as expensive as ignorance."
Appreciate 4
Llarry15239.50
XMetal1125.00
      02-14-2024, 02:08 PM   #14
MisanoblueZ4
Lieutenant
MisanoblueZ4's Avatar
1321
Rep
555
Posts

Drives: 2021 Z4 M40I
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (0)

Writing is on the way cause the consumer doesn’t want manuals anymore. Enthusiasts willing to fork over $$$ for a manual are shrinking by the day.

Corvette C8 sales have done well without a manual at all, this is it. Blame the enthusiasts for bailing on the manuals……or can you? New automatics are the preferred transmission of most enthusiasts now as it isn’t a surprise as modern automatics are very good/better at extracting performance and chasing tenths of a second.

Enjoy it while it lasts, purchase one and keep it forever. Cause that level of driver engagement will disappear.
Appreciate 0
      02-14-2024, 03:29 PM   #15
Mason Hatcher
Captain
United_States
1039
Rep
653
Posts

Drives: BMW 230i
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: FW-TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
They're looking at this all backward.

If they made fun, light, quick, great handling cars with manual transmissions they'd find the market.

But when you make only over-powered, heavy, luxury cars for rich folks, you reap what you sow. Just sticking a manual in such cars is not really what people want. Nor is it even appropriate.

Go back to the 1M if you want to find your market. Or even my 128i M-sport stick, which could be the last 4-wheeled BMW I ever buy!

Yes, you know more about it than they do.
Appreciate 0
      02-14-2024, 03:47 PM   #16
BMWCCA1
BMW Owner Since 1971
2245
Rep
1,403
Posts

Drives: 1964 700 Sport Cabriolet
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Central Virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2013 BMW 128i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Hatcher View Post
Yes, you know more about it than they do.
I'm simply saying their current line-up does not lend itself to a manual-transmission car. You can't blame lack of "take" for manuals for killing them off if you don't offer them in anything but real "M" cars. For years manuals were the standard transmission and the autos the option. Then came cell phones, Starbucks, and other things that used up all your hands while driving.

I have made my living selling BMWs since 1976, so I think I do know more about it than many currently at BMW. The right car with a manual is a great car. BMW hasn't had their hearts in the manual since around 2011. The F10 with a manual was an ergonomic disaster. But if you look at the current value of any older BMW stick compared to the same car in an automatic, the difference is stunning. The secondary market for used BMW sticks has been the same as the secondary market for BMW Tourings (wagons) and yet BMW continues to prove that we don't want wagons by bringing in only the M5 in a wagon. That is some self-fulfilling prophecy in which they stack the deck to prove their point. They did this when the E36/5 (318ti) came out and said they were discontinuing it because of poor sales saying Americans just don't buy high-line hatchbacks, when in its lasts full year of production it outsold the combination of all the 3 and 5-series wagons imported. And look at the MINI sales back then, and it's nothing more than a high-line hatchback.

Maybe their stick sales are too poor to continue it, but what I'm saying is don't blame the transmission until you do some sole-searching and see if BMW ever gave the stick a fighting chance by offering it in cars other than the M2/3/4.

When you think back over the BMW models that came ONLY in stick, there are some real winners: M1, 1M, E30 M3, M635Csi/M6, Z8 (non-Alpina), and the first three generations of the M5. So what do you think has changed since then?
Appreciate 8
      02-14-2024, 04:18 PM   #17
tranquility
sportscars only
tranquility's Avatar
Canada
3228
Rep
3,191
Posts

Drives: 2011 Z4 sDrive 35i
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montréal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
They're looking at this all backward.

If they made fun, light, quick, great handling cars with manual transmissions they'd find the market.

But when you make only over-powered, heavy, luxury cars for rich folks, you reap what you sow. Just sticking a manual in such cars is not really what people want. Nor is it even appropriate.

Go back to the 1M if you want to find your market. Or even my 128i M-sport stick, which could be the last 4-wheeled BMW I ever buy!
I agree, was just looking at the latest M2 and they intentionally made the AT (ugh, even though it's the touted ZF) better performance-wise, w better gearing and more suited for the car than the MT. It's sad that the 2-series is supposed to be (near) their smallest car but it comes in at 3,814 lbs/1,730kg(!).

That guy was a bit snarky but has a pt: unfortunately, most ppl don't care about performance (in terms of handling). They did make those cars as you've said, it's called 'Lotus' and they had to be saved by Geely as the Brit brand was losing so much money. Ppl simply want big nasty straight-line speed vehicles that pretend to be all-in-ones nowadays. Why do you think we have M SUVs? Insane.

Anyway, 'save the manuals', what about 'save the DCTs'? They were phased out even earlier at least at BMW. I'm a pragmatist, there used to be a time when having a MT meant better performance but that time had long sailed off. DCTs are still the pinnacle in performance but BMW decided to go w a slushbox for cost-savings and anticipating the full move to EVs. There's something about an AT M car that doesn't sit right w me.
__________________
The richest one percent of this country owns half our country's wealth, five trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows and idiot sons and what I do, stock and real estate speculation...It's bullsh*t. I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal...Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you buddy?
Appreciate 2
izzyM2701.00
tdott3938.00
      02-14-2024, 05:33 PM   #18
GabesSlowM4
Private First Class
GabesSlowM4's Avatar
180
Rep
103
Posts

Drives: IOMG M4/Mustang GT S550
Join Date: Dec 2023
Location: New Mexico

iTrader: (0)

Guess i'll sell my manual for a premium in 10 years from now!
Appreciate 0
      02-14-2024, 05:41 PM   #19
eliphil
Lieutenant
eliphil's Avatar
1789
Rep
534
Posts

Drives: M550I
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: East Coast

iTrader: (0)

This is why I bought a C7 Corvette in 2019 with a M7 STICK. Four years later and still loving it. I drove the C8 wouldn’t swap my C7 for it.
Appreciate 3
CSBM52715.00
B58 parts472.50
      02-14-2024, 05:49 PM   #20
GabesSlowM4
Private First Class
GabesSlowM4's Avatar
180
Rep
103
Posts

Drives: IOMG M4/Mustang GT S550
Join Date: Dec 2023
Location: New Mexico

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliphil View Post
This is why I bought a C7 Corvette in 2019 with a M7 STICK. Four years later and still loving it. I drove the C8 wouldn’t swap my C7 for it.
Can Confirm, buddy lemme drive his manual C7 and its a blast. Nothing like a V8 and a MT to downshift
Appreciate 0
      02-14-2024, 06:58 PM   #21
tturedraider
Major General
tturedraider's Avatar
United_States
4953
Rep
6,222
Posts

Drives: 2018 340i M Sport
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago, Edgewater (via Texas & Tennessee)

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
I'm simply saying their current line-up does not lend itself to a manual-transmission car. You can't blame lack of "take" for manuals for killing them off if you don't offer them in anything but real "M" cars. For years manuals were the standard transmission and the autos the option. Then came cell phones, Starbucks, and other things that used up all your hands while driving.

I have made my living selling BMWs since 1976, so I think I do know more about it than many currently at BMW. The right car with a manual is a great car. BMW hasn't had their hearts in the manual since around 2011. The F10 with a manual was an ergonomic disaster.
I remember an F10 manual sitting in my dealership’s showroom for months. I also remember it was about halfway through the E90 run that BMWNA gave in and switched from the manual transmission being standard to the automatic being standard. The overall price of the car didn’t change. They raised the MSRP by $1,200. But, it was a psychological barrier for consumers when they saw this expensive BMW they were buying had to have an automatic transmission added at a cost of $1,200. They never noticed the increase in the MSRP, but they noticed there was no longer a $1,200 charge on the options list. And you are correct, that was a turning point in BMWNA’s view of the manual transmission.
__________________
https://youtu.be/-ay-8p2p29w
www.bmwcca.org
member #388003 - Use me as a referral
& you could win a one day ///M Driving School!!

___________________________________________
Appreciate 0
      02-14-2024, 08:33 PM   #22
No one
Major
1037
Rep
1,336
Posts

Drives: F21 118i
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Undisclosed

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4 View Post
New automatics are the preferred transmission of most enthusiasts now as it isn’t a surprise as modern automatics are very good/better at extracting performance and chasing tenths of a second.
Enthusiasts of what? An automatic transmission is extracting performance and chasing tenths of a second instead of you. You're just a passenger carried fast. It's like they bake a cake for you and eat it to save you the effort (they make a fast car that goes fast without your involvement).
Appreciate 1
eliphil1789.00
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:14 PM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST