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      10-24-2020, 05:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
What's a reasonable cost for the possible loss of life? I don't know. Personally, I think it can reopen and limit attendance to 1/4 what it used to be. They can charge double the price to adjust for lower attendance towards operation cost. Maybe only allow certain rides to open. Shorter lines, less people, and strict face mask enforcement.
Disney has already opened in Florida with success and no linking of additional spreading as a result. It certainly is no different than anything else with precautions.

The point here is that California is handling this differently than basically any other state and their numbers are no better.

Again, these "Covid deaths" are pretty loose in their accuracy. I know people discount the skepticism, but the CDC flat out tells you that Covid-19 doesn't kill young and/or healthy people. The numbers back that 100%. Literally 94% of all Covid deaths have an average of 2.6 other conditions accompanying it and over 60% of deaths are people over 75. Think about that. Older than 75. You really think Covid alone killed those elderly folks? Well, 94% of the time, there were other factors. We can't sit here and imagine we know all the factors, including the people coding the death certs, but it's not easy. If a guy is 85 and has Covid, the flu, pneumonia, and diabetes, are we really blaming Covid?

This is not in any way to minimize those who have died, but numbers need context and a lot of analysis to make sense. There have been many reports of "overstating" Covid deaths for funding, political reasons, and just flat out lying. Right now, the CDC reports 88,208 cases out of all Covid deaths that had Influenza and Pneumonia present at time of death. You tell me if Covid was the only cause for death in those and which one the patient contracted first and which ultimately killed them.

Had we categorized H1N1 in the same way, we would have seen 70 million cases (according to CDC) and a lot more deaths if we used similar methodology. It's very gray when you starting talking about comorbidity.

High level, locking down doesn't work and causes a huge amount of damage, including death, but also depression, financial hardship, abuse, and un-diagnosed serious illnesses such as cancer. Taking away someone's livelihood by not allowing them to work is far worse than a respiratory virus that needs you to be either old and/or severely compromised to kill you.

People are going to dislike this and get all political, but these are facts. Life's a bitch and things aren't always a 1 or 0.

Last edited by BayMoWe335; 10-24-2020 at 05:51 PM..
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      10-24-2020, 05:48 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by BayMoWe335 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
What's a reasonable cost for the possible loss of life? I don't know. Personally, I think it can reopen and limit attendance to 1/4 what it used to be. They can charge double the price to adjust for lower attendance towards operation cost. Maybe only allow certain rides to open. Shorter lines, less people, and strict face mask enforcement.
Disney has already opened in Florida with great success with no linking of "spreading" as a result.

The point here is that California is handling this differently than basically any other state and their numbers are no better.

Again, these "Covid deaths" are pretty loose in their accuracy. I know people discount the skepticism, but the CDC flat out tells you that Covid-19 doesn't kill young and/or healthy people. The numbers back that 100%. Literally 94% of all Covid deaths have an average of 2.6 other conditions accompanying it and over 60% of deaths are people over 75. Think about that. Older than 75. You really think Covid alone killed those elderly folks?

This is not in any way to minimize those who have died, but numbers need context and a lot of analysis to make sense. There have been many reports of "overstating" Covid deaths for funding, political reasons, and just flat out lying. Right now, the CDC reports 88,208 cases out of all Covid deaths that had Influenza and Pneumonia present at time of death. You tell me if Covid was the only cause for death in those and which one killed the patient first.

Had we categorized H1N1 in the same way, we would have seen 70 million cases (according to CDC) and a lot more deaths if we used similar methodology.
The problem is that it has become a political argument instead of a practical one. There's too much politics involved to make an informed choice anymore because even the facts themselves are skewed for political goals. As almost always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Problem is, we have to weigh human life vs quality of life, and when things go wrong people look for who to blame instead on focusing on what to do next.

Keep in mind that Orange County is significantly republican and it's has been a battleground for Dems and Reps to prove a point rather than solve a problem. Open it up and infection goes up, Newsom gets blamed. Keep it closed and the economy suffers, Newsom gets blamed. Open it up and the economy improves, Newsom gets blamed for not doing it sooner and the Republicans get a bonus "told you so". There is little down side for the GOP because all positive outcomes can be attributed to local representatives, while all blame can be placed on the state government. That is the advantage of not being in the position of making the tough decisions.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

But I digress. Politics sub is gone and this isn't appropriate for the forum. However, when attacking a large group of people for "ruining" a state with the biggest successful economy in the US from a distance without sufficient perspective, I think it's fair to provide a different POV. Too much finger pointing and vitriol going on. This is the UNITED states. Ostracizing people because of where they are from instead of who they are.... that's not the America we should aim to be.
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      10-24-2020, 05:58 PM   #25
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Haha, no encouragement needed here. The idea of moving from San Diego to Florida or Texas would be a fucking joke.

What is this shithole you speak of?
Have you ever left california? Sure the weather is nice and it used to be pretty but otherwise it’s a crime ridden shithole that charges out the ass. It’s constantly on fire and the government in charge cant figure out how to create sustainable infrastructure. The laws there are absolutely ridiculous and you are surrounded by people who think their shit dont stink.
If you like it good for you. San diego is actually supposed to be one of the better cities there but still would be one of the last places i’d choose to live
Come to CA and enjoy the beaches with good people. They might have a different opinion, but that doesn't make them your enemy. Not everything is pristine here, but not everything is a shithole either. Lots of beautiful mountains, beaches, deserts and people. Let's find reasons to get along rather than be at odds. It's harder, but it's more rewarding.
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      10-24-2020, 06:11 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The problem is that it has become a political argument instead of a practical one. There's too much politics involved to make an informed choice anymore because even the facts themselves are skewed for political goals. As almost always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Problem is, we have to weigh human life vs quality of life, and when things go wrong people look for who to blame instead on focusing on what to do next.

Keep in mind that Orange County is significantly republican and it's has been a battleground for Dems and Reps to prove a point rather than solve a problem. Open it up and infection goes up, Newsom gets blamed. Keep it closed and the economy suffers, Newsom gets blamed. Open it up and the economy improves, Newsom gets blamed for not doing it sooner and the Republicans get a bonus "told you so". There is little down side for the GOP because all positive outcomes can be attributed to local representatives, while all blame can be placed on the state government. That is the advantage of not being in the position of making the tough decisions.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

But I digress. Politics sub is gone and this isn't appropriate for the forum. However, when attacking a large group of people for "ruining" a state with the biggest successful economy in the US from a distance without sufficient perspective, I think it's fair to provide a different POV. Too much finger pointing and vitriol going on. This is the UNITED states. Ostracizing people because of where they are from instead of who they are.... that's not the America we should aim to be.
It's a mess. If I'm Disney, I announce a long-term plan to leave California. It's crazy, but their state handles things so poorly that I wouldn't risk being there for the next thing. I guarantee you they are looking at all options. It's not so easy to "pack it up" and move out, but anything can be done if California drags its feet for long.
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      10-24-2020, 07:56 PM   #27
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Just a handful of weeks ago things in LA, Orange County, and San Diego felt mostly normal with the exception of proper nightlife. Outdoor dining was in full swing, malls open, gyms open. I was in SF around the time of the fires and the city felt mostly empty outside the Embarcadero and North Beach area.

Some places recently shut down the gyms again. Sucks bad.
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      10-24-2020, 08:01 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Smgs1992 View Post
Have you ever left california? Sure the weather is nice and it used to be pretty but otherwise it’s a crime ridden shithole that charges out the ass. It’s constantly on fire and the government in charge cant figure out how to create sustainable infrastructure. The laws there are absolutely ridiculous and you are surrounded by people who think their shit dont stink.
If you like it good for you. San diego is actually supposed to be one of the better cities there but still would be one of the last places i’d choose to live
California has seen its best days, but it still has a lot going for it. There's a robust economy and there's far more to do than in other states. Throw in the perfect climate it's hard to leave. However the politicians and out of control cost of living make it difficult to justify staying. When I see what type of home $2-3 million gets here vs. in the rest of the country it's pretty bad. The politicians do their best to punish working people and all those crazy taxes seem to never fix the consistent problems here...

Newsom is highly partisan and ideological, I can't wait until he's gone. Unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised if his replacement is even more partisan.
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      10-24-2020, 08:28 PM   #29
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Being in Texas, bars and restaurants are more of less opened back up, but I just went through San Francisco last week, and literally most of the wine bars, vineyards, exc were all closed, and social distancing was in full enforcement.

This is quite the opposite of Texas, where its 90% back to normal.

Those of you from California, are you ready to move to Texas of Florida!??

Texas isn't 90%. Bars can only be open to 50 % IF in Trauma Service Areas (TSAs) where COVID-19 hospitalizations are less than 15% of hospital capacity, AND County Judge authorizes the opening of bars and similar establishments at 50% occupancy.

Restaurants can be at 75%


https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/gove...y%20officials.
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      10-24-2020, 09:05 PM   #30
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Come to CA and enjoy the beaches with good people. They might have a different opinion, but that doesn't make them your enemy. Not everything is pristine here, but not everything is a shithole either. Lots of beautiful mountains, beaches, deserts and people. Let's find reasons to get along rather than be at odds. It's harder, but it's more rewarding.
Iíve been to California and like i said it has great weather and it is pretty but the traffic is unbearable and the homeless issue is very real. Along with littering. Everywhere i went was covered in roaches (weed not the insect)
I make a good salary where i live but i would go broke very quickly just trying to live a minimalist lifestyle in california

As far as people. I am actually quite open to differing opinions, however that is not the vibe i got from the people there.
If i were to go back i would prefer to go to northern california but iíve been happy visiting the east coast and traveling to places such as tennessee and i can get most of the same experiences and some different experiences
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      10-24-2020, 09:19 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by BayMoWe335 View Post
Disney has already opened in Florida with success and no linking of additional spreading as a result. It certainly is no different than anything else with precautions.

The point here is that California is handling this differently than basically any other state and their numbers are no better.

Again, these "Covid deaths" are pretty loose in their accuracy. I know people discount the skepticism, but the CDC flat out tells you that Covid-19 doesn't kill young and/or healthy people. The numbers back that 100%. Literally 94% of all Covid deaths have an average of 2.6 other conditions accompanying it and over 60% of deaths are people over 75. Think about that. Older than 75. You really think Covid alone killed those elderly folks? Well, 94% of the time, there were other factors. We can't sit here and imagine we know all the factors, including the people coding the death certs, but it's not easy. If a guy is 85 and has Covid, the flu, pneumonia, and diabetes, are we really blaming Covid?

This is not in any way to minimize those who have died, but numbers need context and a lot of analysis to make sense. There have been many reports of "overstating" Covid deaths for funding, political reasons, and just flat out lying. Right now, the CDC reports 88,208 cases out of all Covid deaths that had Influenza and Pneumonia present at time of death. You tell me if Covid was the only cause for death in those and which one the patient contracted first and which ultimately killed them.

Had we categorized H1N1 in the same way, we would have seen 70 million cases (according to CDC) and a lot more deaths if we used similar methodology. It's very gray when you starting talking about comorbidity.

High level, locking down doesn't work and causes a huge amount of damage, including death, but also depression, financial hardship, abuse, and un-diagnosed serious illnesses such as cancer. Taking away someone's livelihood by not allowing them to work is far worse than a respiratory virus that needs you to be either old and/or severely compromised to kill you.

People are going to dislike this and get all political, but these are facts. Life's a bitch and things aren't always a 1 or 0.
Serious question - did H1N1 cause the strain on the hospital system that COVID did?
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      10-24-2020, 10:17 PM   #32
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Serious question - did H1N1 cause the strain on the hospital system that COVID did?
No, but that doesn't mean people didn't die with H1N1 as a contributing factor just like Covid. (they assuredly did because 70M people in the US had it, far more than Covid). Furthermore, I'd argue if a media frenzy began on H1N1 and scared people, more people would have been tested, hospitalized with flu like symptoms, and generally more hysteria would have surrounded it.

With Covid, the positive test rate is still quite low (indicating that it is on peoples' mind and there is much more fear without reason, bc they are largely negative when tested). The general public definitely do not understand what is behind the "covid death" count because all they see are # of cases and # of deaths. Misleading. Reckless. I guarantee most people would be surprised to know 60% of all deaths are people over 75 and even more surprised 94% of all deaths involve 2.6 other conditions. Just that should be disclosed, daily, along with the tally. You need context.

H1N1 didn't get the media frenzy behind it, so the deaths were likely reported in a more generalized, less aggressive way. Today, there are many accounts of Covid being a cause of death for already severely sick (and old) patients (see the cdc.gov data). There are even financial incentives for reporting covid deaths to get federal funding. It's also turned extremely political, sadly.

All I can tell you is the media handled it entirely differently. Part of it was luck that it wasn't as "deadly" but part of it was just it didn't catch on as much in the media. I truly believe the media made things a lot worse and public opinion started demanding testing, the mask revolution, data, etc. It got a life of its own.

H1N1 was actually scarier in some ways because it killed healthy, young people. Covid19 is essentially a contributing factor to people already close to death, either by age or by all their conditions and age. Fact.
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      10-24-2020, 11:30 PM   #33
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Thanks, while I appreciate and agree with parts of your logic, I'm not sure if h1n1 and covid-19 are exactly comparable in terms of death rate, asymptomatic spread, etc. It would be interesting to look back a few years later when we understand this better to see how we could have differently responded.

I do need to disagree with your last paragraph however. Both h1n1 and covid-19 are capable of killing young healthy people. At the beginning of the pandemic when NYC was hit hard and quick, some of my young (<40) healthy friends passed away from COVID or a condition (e.g. heart attack in an otherwise healthy person) that was triggered by COVID. IMO there is still a lot we don't understand.
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      10-24-2020, 11:41 PM   #34
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Here we got restaurants open with some capacity rules and politicians are pushing for outdoor dining, but since it's getting cold, restaurants are building fully enclosed tents with space heaters for "outdoor" dining. The stupidest thing anyone could've possibly done

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 10-25-2020 at 12:31 PM..
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      10-25-2020, 12:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by 9M71 View Post
Thanks, while I appreciate and agree with parts of your logic, I'm not sure if h1n1 and covid-19 are exactly comparable in terms of death rate, asymptomatic spread, etc. It would be interesting to look back a few years later when we understand this better to see how we could have differently responded.

I do need to disagree with your last paragraph however. Both h1n1 and covid-19 are capable of killing young healthy people. At the beginning of the pandemic when NYC was hit hard and quick, some of my young (<40) healthy friends passed away from COVID or a condition (e.g. heart attack in an otherwise healthy person) that was triggered by COVID. IMO there is still a lot we don't understand.
While I'm sad for your friend, that is certainly not a normal case. My condolences, nonetheless.
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      10-25-2020, 02:47 AM   #36
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Please sign the Recall Newsom petition.
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      10-25-2020, 02:55 AM   #37
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Please sign the Recall Newsom petition.
Please do not insult our almighty supreme leader like that.
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      10-25-2020, 07:19 AM   #38
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Thanks, while I appreciate and agree with parts of your logic, I'm not sure if h1n1 and covid-19 are exactly comparable in terms of death rate, asymptomatic spread, etc. It would be interesting to look back a few years later when we understand this better to see how we could have differently responded.

I do need to disagree with your last paragraph however. Both h1n1 and covid-19 are capable of killing young healthy people. At the beginning of the pandemic when NYC was hit hard and quick, some of my young (<40) healthy friends passed away from COVID or a condition (e.g. heart attack in an otherwise healthy person) that was triggered by COVID. IMO there is still a lot we don't understand.
I also send my condolences to your friends that have died from COVID. But not to be flippant. None of this attention has been showered on other illnesses that have afflicted the young as much as COVID. Those that have seen some of my posts here know I had Colon Cancer. Colon Cancer kills 60,000 people a year and has for decades. There is a significant increase in ever younger people getting it and this continues to grow each year. So much so that the screening age for the initial colonoscopy has been lowered from 50 to 45. Many of us are advocating that this should be lowered to 40; even my GI doctor agrees with this. No one knows why so many young people are getting it. Some think it could be diet. Some think it could be environmental.

The single most effective treatment for Colon/Rectal Cancer is a colonoscopy to catch it when it's a benign polyp before it grows into a tumor. Point blank, the reason the screening age hasn't been lowered is due to cost. Insurance companies don't want to pay for it if they don't have to. Many young people who are diagnosed with CRC are in more advanced stages (Stage 3 or 4) due to doctors thinking it's something else (hemorrhoids), lack of aggressive treatment because the patient is young, and the insurance factor for paying for a colonoscopy. Imagine how many of those 60,000 people per year could be alive due to having a colonoscopy early. If a fraction of the money that has been spent on COVID was spent on paying for colonoscopies, a ton of people would be alive now and into the future. Yet no one is focusing on this as it's not sexy or has any political legs. Am I frustrated and a bit bitter? Yes. Because having been affected by colon cancer both personally and seeing many friends I've met in the community die, I have a specific perspective. I was diagnosed at age 42 at Stage 3b. I've been told my tumor was slow growing and probably started as a polyp 3 years prior. Imagine how my life would have been very different if I had a colonoscopy at age 40.

BayMoWe335 Per your post about undiagnosed cancer deaths due to COVID attention, there is another aspect that won't get captured in any stats. The deaths due to treatment for existing cancer patients that were shut down due to COVID. My friend was set to go on a clinical trial at Duke until COVID hit and the clinical trial was shut down. There are tons of other people going through similar struggles.
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      10-26-2020, 10:48 AM   #39
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Bars can't open. Places that include a bar may open IF there is food service. So many places that used to be just a bar now have a few tables and "tapas" so they can open, but the stand-up bar is closed.

There is an infamous nuddie bar in my neighborhood. They now have a taco truck park in front from 2-11, so they can have the bar open. It used to be just in the tent outside. I peaked around when wife/I were there ordering tacos (it's the easy, good-tasting alternative to cooking, and it's 2 blocks from the house) They had a TV with provocative dancing, and girls in short shorts serving beer.

Over the weekend we went to a sushi-mex restaurant. Bar was closed, but I still had 4 tequilas with my sushi. Waited 40 minutes to sit inside and watch the Dodgers. They had spaced out the tables a bit, and you had to wear a mask to walk around, but that was it.
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      10-26-2020, 10:58 AM   #40
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Bars are packed here, restaurants are packed, streets are packed, walmart is packed, home depot is packed.... honestly if you had been in a coma for the past year and just woke up now you would think the population doubled or something.

For the most part everyone wears their mask inside unless it's a bar or restaurant then they only wear it while walking around but not while seated (which I will never understand). However if you drive just an hour north of here to Ft Pierce or further west there isn't a mask to be seen. If you woke up from your coma over there you wouldn't know anything was going on.
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      10-26-2020, 11:37 AM   #41
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I cant speak to bars and restaurants but we are having tons of issues with our warehouse in the LA area. USPS and UPS are missing pick ups, and not unloading their feeder trucks and just blaming Covid.
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      10-26-2020, 12:14 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by IndyRed128i View Post
Being in Texas, bars and restaurants are more of less opened back up, but I just went through San Francisco last week, and literally most of the wine bars, vineyards, exc were all closed, and social distancing was in full enforcement.

This is quite the opposite of Texas, where its 90% back to normal.

Those of you from California, are you ready to move to Texas of Florida!??

I'm born and raised in California and love it here. I'm sure Texas and Florida residents feel the same about their states.

California has problems for sure. But you don't escape problems by moving, especially to Texas or Florida for crying out loud.

This pandemic is affecting everybody in some way or another. My wife and I are not going out to restaurants right now, even if they are open. We've been cooking at home and enjoying learning to prepare new dishes and making a bit of a hobby out of it.
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      10-26-2020, 12:27 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Bars are packed here, restaurants are packed, streets are packed, walmart is packed, home depot is packed.... honestly if you had been in a coma for the past year and just woke up now you would think the population doubled or something.

For the most part everyone wears their mask inside unless it's a bar or restaurant then they only wear it while walking around but not while seated (which I will never understand). However if you drive just an hour north of here to Ft Pierce or further west there isn't a mask to be seen. If you woke up from your coma over there you wouldn't know anything was going on.
In MA we got many sickos wearing masks inside cars and in forests. Few days ago I was on a sidewalk without mask and person walking towards me crossed the road in order to pass.

Restaurants is the same thing. Everything is pretty busy with limited capacity and you need to wear a mask while walking (nonsense). I was in outdoor restaurant a month ago and even there they told me I need a mask outside even though there was no one around. Its funny with restaurants that have outdoor sitting on the sidewalks....people walking by tables without masks but if you are on restaurant territory then mask is needed

Doing some construction projects, have clients that only allow you inside when they are all home while other allow inside only when they are away lol. People gone crazy with this covid

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 10-26-2020 at 01:44 PM..
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      10-26-2020, 02:46 PM   #44
Alfisti
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Ya'll nuts down there, just let it run rampant and half arsed your lock down. My relatives back home in OZ are laughing, 1 case of community spread amongst 26 million people yesterday and life is returning to normal because they did the hard yards early.

Most of you are also playing down the risks, this is a nasty virus as even asymptomatic people are showing heart and lung damage that may come get them later in life.
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