BMW E60 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com  
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  

Go Back   BMW E60 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-01-2023, 12:52 PM   #23
mnewnam
First Lieutenant
268
Rep
376
Posts

Drives: '21 Mineral White X5MC
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Hahahaha. Hydrogen is a scam for people who failed high school physics.
Lol. What a moron…
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2023, 02:16 PM   #24
chris719
Major General
7273
Rep
7,252
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewnam View Post
Lol. What a moron…
Where does hydrogen come from? What's the overall process efficiency from source to car? You should look into it. Hydrogen is mostly greenwashing. We would be better off on gasoline PHEVs.
Appreciate 1
F32Fleet3539.50
      03-01-2023, 02:51 PM   #25
mnewnam
First Lieutenant
268
Rep
376
Posts

Drives: '21 Mineral White X5MC
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Where does hydrogen come from? What's the overall process efficiency from source to car? You should look into it. Hydrogen is mostly greenwashing. We would be better off on gasoline PHEVs.
I know that it isn’t the most efficient process but there are numerous benefits. It can be created anywhere with a water source and power (solar, geothermal, wind, grid, whatever). It can be stored, generated at home, and can fill a vehicle much closer to an ICE refill time than charging the current generation of batteries. The fuel cells currently being tested, according to Ford and Shell, can produce way more energy than the vehicle needs, meaning they could be used as a backup power source for your home.

Then you look at how lithium batteries are made… good lord all we’re doing is moving our pollution from the road to third world countries… it’s extremely toxic to people and the environment… they have an estimated lifetime of 10 years before needing replacement and then you have all these used lithium batteries to deal with that we’ll probably end up shipping to third world countries to take apart and get the usable lithium out for recycling.

Unless battery technology changes drastically I can’t see batteries alone as a long term solution. We’d be better off with cleaner burning low emissions ICE vehicles or IMO Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
Appreciate 2
      03-01-2023, 06:59 PM   #26
rbryantaz
Lieutenant
United_States
358
Rep
527
Posts

Drives: 2007 E70 4.8i, 2008 E90 335i
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Phoenix, AZ area

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [7.67]
2007 BMW X5 4.8i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghaffari46 View Post
I agree that not having a garage especially in northern states is a problem for EV owners but more and and more apartment buildings are installing EV chargers to attract more people , i have an apartment in dc and they are installing charger in the basement (for a fee) which will eliminate my supercharger use for my travel to dc and come back home.
What is missing in these calculations are the amount of time and efforts for fueling up your ICE car, even onces a week fueling translates at least 20-30 minutes a month, and i hate any second of it especially in crazy Pennsylvania winter. If you have all the pieces in place you spend zero extra time to charge your car, like you never go to a different place to charge your cell phone.
With these new laws and incentives I already saw plans for expanding EV infrastructure, I think every thing will be much smoother for mass population very soon, inventing the wheel again by going after hydrogen sounds a little silly.
My wife has had a model S for about 4-5 years now. We have charged it at a public charging station once! She commutes about 40 miles one way and it does everything it needs to.

Now the real kicker, the car is just a Model S 60. It has 160miles of range at 90% charge. We use it to commute to work and nothing else and it is perfect for that.

Electric cars aren't ready for people that drive 300miles every day, don't have a garage, rent one, or want to take their EV on a road trip that is for sure.... People that buy an electric car in those situations are currently doing it wrong IMO.

It is fine to want EVs to be perfect for all use cases but most people could use an EV just fine if they had a cheaper second car. Instead they want to spend $100k on an electric car that can go 400miles instead of $40k on one that goes 200 and say $30k on another ICE car.... Of course this assumes parking space for two cars but again most people that make this argument seem to have 2 ICE cars while waiting for the magic EV to arrive anyway!

Sure we should push for more range, more charging stations, etc but I really feel that that is overblown and not a problem for most people. I have had this conversation with coworkers who say "but there are no chargers" and I say "when would you even use one?" Having a charging station at work would be great (I would probably stop charging at home and let work pay for it).

Basically this means that EVs aren't ready for people that have just one car and need to regularly drive long distances, take road trips, etc but they are just fine the rest of the time.

This whole notion of taking EVs on a road trip or renting one doesn't compute to me other than trying to act cool. It is like owning a Z4 as your only car and then complaining about how it doesn't work well on family road trips... It just is not the right car for that... If you need more than 2 seats and want a Z4 then you need another car to pair it with!

If you go on a road trip and only own an EV then rent a freaking ICE minivan and save the wear and tear on your EV! I have an old X5 for that (oh wait, an old BMW for road trips might not be the best option now that I think about it).

Back on subject...

I agree with the concept of Semis running on Hydrogen more than cars, the tuckers can be trained to deal with it better, they have the room for it on the platform, etc.

Hydrogen in the form of CH4 (natural gas) makes more sense to me especially if it can be generated from carbon and hydrogen.

-Rich
__________________
2007 E70 X5 4.8i with 10" android screen Running 265/60/18 AT34s All Terrains (Mainly for road trips)
2008 E90 335i with 10" android screen, 7" intercooler, inlets, Dinan intake, JB4 BEF, E85 conversion, Mfactory LSD, M3 suspension, EDC shocks with custom controller.

Last edited by rbryantaz; 03-01-2023 at 07:16 PM..
Appreciate 2
      03-02-2023, 06:50 AM   #27
F32Fleet
Lieutenant General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
3540
Rep
10,329
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Shareholders should be angry over this fascination with hydrogen.

Hydrogen is a non-starter for so many technical reasons.

No ,1: It requires more energy to create than what it can produce.

No 2:. Cleaner forms of production are decades away from reaching scale.

No 3:. This is the most important piece. It can only be transported via truck and is continually lost to the atmosphere while in transport.


It's kinda silly to concentrate on Hydrogen when they it's made with NatGas. Why no use NatGas? It can be transported via pipeline, is cheap, doesn't require super insulated tanks, and is easy to fuel. Ohh that's right. CO2. *eye roll*
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 2
      03-02-2023, 06:59 AM   #28
F32Fleet
Lieutenant General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
3540
Rep
10,329
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rilla View Post
Do you have a source on weeks to empty? My napkin math says years.
Liquid hydrogen tanks continually vent because they warm up causing pressures to increase. The hydrogen 7 would be empty in about a week. Venting wasn't dangerous however because BMW used a catalyst which convered the hydrogen into water as it vented.

So you had a puddle of water in your garage.

Gaseous hydrogen tanks also vent. I don't know the rate.
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 1
chris7197273.00
      03-02-2023, 07:06 AM   #29
F32Fleet
Lieutenant General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
3540
Rep
10,329
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewnam View Post
I know that it isn’t the most efficient process but there are numerous benefits. It can be created anywhere with a water source and power (solar, geothermal, wind, grid, whatever). It can be stored, generated at home, and can fill a vehicle much closer to an ICE refill time than charging the current generation of batteries. The fuel cells currently being tested, according to Ford and Shell, can produce way more energy than the vehicle needs, meaning they could be used as a backup power source for your home.

Then you look at how lithium batteries are made… good lord all we’re doing is moving our pollution from the road to third world countries… it’s extremely toxic to people and the environment… they have an estimated lifetime of 10 years before needing replacement and then you have all these used lithium batteries to deal with that we’ll probably end up shipping to third world countries to take apart and get the usable lithium out for recycling.

Unless battery technology changes drastically I can’t see batteries alone as a long term solution. We’d be better off with cleaner burning low emissions ICE vehicles or IMO Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
No it can't be stored or generated at home. It can't be created at scale without using fossil fuels. It can't be transported via pipeline like natural gas and other fossil fuels.

Hydrogen requires a tremendous amount energy to store.
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 1
chris7197273.00
      03-02-2023, 08:25 AM   #30
Tejas1836
Captain
Tejas1836's Avatar
990
Rep
821
Posts

Drives: 2023 X5MC Workmaster 75
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Tejas

iTrader: (0)

Breeder reactors for H2 generation is the way to go
__________________
Two is One and One is None
Appreciate 0
      03-02-2023, 09:58 AM   #31
rilla
Private
rilla's Avatar
85
Rep
83
Posts

Drives: 2004 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Upstate NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Liquid hydrogen tanks continually vent because they warm up causing pressures to increase. The hydrogen 7 would be empty in about a week. Venting wasn't dangerous however because BMW used a catalyst which convered the hydrogen into water as it vented.

So you had a puddle of water in your garage.

Gaseous hydrogen tanks also vent. I don't know the rate.
Gaseous tanks don’t vent. The issue being questioned is permeation due to the molecules being so small
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
No it can't be stored or generated at home. It can't be created at scale without using fossil fuels. It can't be transported via pipeline like natural gas and other fossil fuels.

Hydrogen requires a tremendous amount energy to store.
It can be and is transported by pipeline.
There are numerous projects under execution to produce “at scale”
Appreciate 0
      03-02-2023, 02:53 PM   #32
F32Fleet
Lieutenant General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
3540
Rep
10,329
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rilla View Post
It can be and is transported by pipeline.
There are numerous projects under execution to produce “at scale”
Not in liquid form lAgain it'll never happen unless you get nuclear involved.
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2023, 02:00 AM   #33
mnewnam
First Lieutenant
268
Rep
376
Posts

Drives: '21 Mineral White X5MC
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
No it can't be stored or generated at home. It can't be created at scale without using fossil fuels. It can't be transported via pipeline like natural gas and other fossil fuels.

Hydrogen requires a tremendous amount energy to store
You are incorrect or at least partially incorrect on at least three points. There is a home hydrogen electrolysis and storage system available in AUS and soon to be available in the US with others on the way. Not to mention the USDOE has as of Sept 2022 as part of the Infrastructure bill invested $8 billion in companies to produce hydrogen “at scale”, store, and transport hydrogen to regional hydrogen hubs for distribution. Also the IEEE noted a 100 fold improvement in solar to hydrogen energy conversion back in 2021. I could keep going…

There’s plenty of articles out there.
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2023, 02:53 AM   #34
MadBimmeRad
Brigadier General
MadBimmeRad's Avatar
Australia
7107
Rep
4,007
Posts

Drives: M235i, 420i, and now the M2 CS
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Adelaide

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
F32Fleet not long ago, man dreamt of flying

Look what happened
__________________
M2CS,
The second coming of ///M!
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2023, 06:26 AM   #35
F32Fleet
Lieutenant General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
3540
Rep
10,329
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewnam View Post
You are incorrect or at least partially incorrect on at least three points. There is a home hydrogen electrolysis and storage system available in AUS and soon to be available in the US with others on the way. Not to mention the USDOE has as of Sept 2022 as part of the Infrastructure bill invested $8 billion in companies to produce hydrogen “at scale”, store, and transport hydrogen to regional hydrogen hubs for distribution. Also the IEEE noted a 100 fold improvement in solar to hydrogen energy conversion back in 2021. I could keep going…

There’s plenty of articles out there.
Wrong. The at home system from Australia does not generate enough hydrogen to fuel a miserable fuel cell car. That technology isn't ready for prime time. The efficiency of these units is subpar at best coming in 50 percent and doesn't include the at home infrastructure required to transfer the hydrogen without killing yourself. It's fantasy.

Spending billions on new infrastructure for hydrogen is a ridiculous waste of money when the existing electrical grid is already available.

100 fold improvement from nothing is still nothing.

There are plenty of articles showing that hydrogen is a fairytale full of wishful thinking full of fantastical assumptions. It's kinda like California's recently announced climate plan.

Until that changes BMW and Toyota shouldn't be wasting resources when they have more important things to worry about such as keeping their doors open.
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 1
      03-03-2023, 06:29 AM   #36
F32Fleet
Lieutenant General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
3540
Rep
10,329
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad View Post
F32Fleet not long ago, man dreamt of flying

Look what happened
Ya well we know about hydrogen. But hey as long as there's free money available. Some engineers somewhere can use it justifying their existence.
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 1
      03-09-2023, 06:38 PM   #37
hufington
Major
hufington's Avatar
3117
Rep
1,354
Posts

Drives: 2022 X5 m50i
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North East

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
The research must go on.
__________________
2022 BMW X5 m50i
2024 MB S63 on order
'18 X5 50i / '16 BMW F10 550xi / '13 BMW F10 535i / '07 BMW E64 630i / '03 BMW E65 745i / '95 BMW E34 540i / '89 BMW E30 M3
Appreciate 0
      03-09-2023, 08:23 PM   #38
MadBimmeRad
Brigadier General
MadBimmeRad's Avatar
Australia
7107
Rep
4,007
Posts

Drives: M235i, 420i, and now the M2 CS
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Adelaide

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
For nay sayers

https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hyd...ct%20Emission.
__________________
M2CS,
The second coming of ///M!
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:41 AM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST