What should I ask for? (new position)

[billnchristy]

So I'm moving into a new role, I've been a maintenance and facility manager in some shape or form since I left the Navy in 2005. I worked at a rebar company for 10 years and went from area supervisor of 3 shops to the regional SAP coordinator overseeing maintenance and projects at 12 shops.

I then moved to automotive for the next 4 years and did maintenance, facilities, tooling, and automation manager there and in my facilities role I managed dozens of projects in the 250k to multi million range.

At my current job I am maintenance manager and am moving into a project manager role with the express purpose of seeing our expansions through from start to finish. This includes expanding a current location and also building a new one. Who knows what future projects looks like but those will take 1.5-3 years so it's really going to be my focus.

I will be working directly for the owner and will have an engineer for support.

We have worked out that my bonus structure won't change much, it's currently based on production but will move to shipping numbers like the rest of the office staff so that portion of my pay is covered and should be similar.

I've looked at salaries and it's all over the place, from 60-150k but I know the job title is very generic as some PMs might be doing relatively small projects while others would be doing projects even bigger than mine but seeing as how we have already spent 5m on equipment and still need to purchase land, build a building and purchase support equipment, I am estimating this project to be in the 10-15m range and the local expansion near 1m.

I have a BA in management and an MA in teaching so no formal project management schooling but as I have said, I have been completing projects in the 100s of thousands to millions for 15 years.

He basically asked me what I think I should make and I deferred the question for the time being but am meeting again tomorrow.

I currently base at 101k. Median depending on who you ask is 95-116 according to my searches.

I don't want to be stupid in either direction and I'm not used to naming a price so I am looking for advice.

[floridaorange]

Can you post the job description for the new position please, this will answer a lot of questions I think.

[JP10]

Depends on your bonus structure in my opinion. I’m doing a $6mil expansion currently and I can outsource the PM for $110k/yr. Keep in mind, that is for .5FTE, but I don’t think a project of that size requires a full time employee. Maybe that will help stem some additional thought.

[2000cs]

“I think I should make $150k, but we both know I’m not there yet. Let’s start with a base of $115k and work together to get me qualified for more.”

More about how I’d answer the question than the specific numbers. Be prepared to list 3 or more thinks you think your need developmentally/experience, ask for his list, and establish a reasonable time frame to accomplish them, in case he asks.

[Turkish Pickle]

I don't know enough about real life to give you a figure, but I will give you a huge and hearty "fuck SAP"

[billnchristy]

Originally Posted by floridaorange

Can you post the job description for the new position please, this will answer a lot of questions I think.

Well, he asked me to write it so I basically used general bullet points and tweaked it to our business.

As for why me and not outsourced or hired, I have 3 years of experience with this equipment and have helped transform our plant to nearly double production in that time. There are probably 150 of the machines we use in the world and less than 6 of one component. That technical knowledge will help make the upcoming plants even more efficient.

[JP10]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

Well, he asked me to write it so I basically used general bullet points and tweaked it to our business.

As for why me and not outsourced or hired, I have 3 years of experience with this equipment and have helped transform our plant to nearly double production in that time. There are probably 150 of the machines we use in the world and less than 6 of one component. That technical knowledge will help make the upcoming plants even more efficient.

We may be in similar lines of business, so I understand what you mean. Not debating whether or not to outsource, I was just providing another perspective. We chose a different route for our project. Outsource the administrative functions of the role (labor audits, financial tracking, advertisement, reporting) and leave the technical decisions to senior management.
From a financial perspective it was the cheaper route especially when considering fully burdened labor rates. At the same time, to us it mitigated risk of a manager(s) not being able to produce the same results if consumed with the project. If you can keep positively influencing production while running the/these projects, you may argue for more.

[billnchristy]

This, at the moment, is more technical and likely closer to an engineer function.

I will:
Spec equipment and order
Spec loads and order switchgear
Help find and purchase land
Help coordinate shipping and delivery of equipment from abroad
Maintain storage facility while the building is being built
Help finalize layout for building
Work with contractors to build building
Resolve conflicts during construction
Coordinate shipping, rigging, and install of equipment
Help train new personnel
Help test and confirm operation

One of our owners is basically giving up his job to focus on it, along with me and we will utilize our engineer as needed to help.

[billnchristy]

Ok I sent averages for construction manager, PM-construction, and PM III along with the job description and it's looking like base average is between 110-120 so we'll see where it goes, meeting this afternoon.

[3.0L]

When I first saw your title, I thought you might be considering doggy style or something.

[2000cs]

Originally Posted by 3.0L

When I first saw your title, I thought you might be considering doggy style or something.

In which case, it is important to remember, “it’s only kinky the first time”

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by 2000cs

In which case, it is important to remember, “it’s only kinky the first time”

Kinky isn't using a feather

Kinky is using the whole chicken

[DETRoadster]

"Project Manager" is overused these days and has lost its value as a title, even if you are PMP certified. If you think the shoe fits, I'd try to make the small but important distinction that you are a Program Manager and not a Project Manager. You'll command a higher salary and set yourself apart from "Project managers" who handle things like getting new coffee makers for all the conference rooms and converting all the shop lighting over to LED.

[Watching The World Burn]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

Kinky isn't using a feather

Kinky is using the whole chicken

Preferably frozen per an esteemed member of these forums.

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by Watching The World Burn

Preferably frozen per an esteemed member of these forums.

MKSixer you bad man!!!

[billnchristy]

We haven't made an agreement yet but I'm sensing there won't be a substantial increase. However, my bonus structure will not change dramatically and it's very generous so it actually puts me well into the higher range of typical pay anyway. I'd obviously like to see more but it does do the job of getting me out of maintenance.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

MKSixer you bad man!!!

Why do I always get the bad rap?!?!! Kinda the same reasons BMWs are driven by the baddies and their henchmen in movies.

And, OP, you're discussing money. Make it a P anf L conversation. Show what you've done in the past as a reference and what you will do in the future and why your ask of a 20+% increase is warranted. Don't fudge around with a nominal increase. That's bullshirt. MAKE them understand why you are worth it. Audentes fortuna iuvat!!

[DocL]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

Kinky isn't using a feather

Kinky is using the whole chicken

We used to ask drunk girls if we could "tickle their ass with a feather". When they gave that nasty look the follow-up line was "I said PARTICULLARY nasty weather."

[dscabra]

Not sure about your industry, but as a hiring manager in an engineering career field I can say that salary bands are fairly wide. Most times, I post positions expecting to hit the middle (+/- 5%) and will present an offer based on experience and how many of the desired skills a candidate possesses. I expect some negotiation, but will not usually entertain requests that exceed the mid-point by more than 5%.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dscabra

Not sure about your industry, but as a hiring manager in an engineering career field I can say that salary bands are fairly wide. Most times, I post positions expecting to hit the middle (+/- 5%) and will present an offer based on experience and how many of the desired skills a candidate possesses. I expect some negotiation, but will not usually entertain requests that exceed the mid-point by more than 5%.

then that means that you are either lying about the range... or the range isn't what you say it is (listed too wide)...

I see this very commonly... range 125-175k... well in my head, that means they'll pay 150.. but that also means NO one is getting above 160 and they will always try to low ball at 130... which means the whole thing was a lie... 90% of linkedin is this and it infuriates people

[dscabra]

Originally Posted by ASAP

then that means that you are either lying about the range... or the range isn't what you say it is (listed too wide)...

I see this very commonly... range 125-175k... well in my head, that means they'll pay 150.. but that also means NO one is getting above 160 and they will always try to low ball at 130... which means the whole thing was a lie... 90% of linkedin is this and it infuriates people

Not exactly. The pay bands allow for growth within a level. We define levels based on years of experience and education. When I hire a new college graduate as a level one, I try to get them below the mid-point in the band. We look at two years experience as a level 1 before promoting to level 2. In that two years, they will be 5-10% above the mid-point, which will put them around 5% below the mid point for a level 2 with a 10% bump for the promotion. It continues up through the levels with longer experience required as you move up. Some people will hit the limits of their potential at level 4, for example. The wider band allows for raises well beyond the mid-point in these cases. I also have the flexibility to go up or down one level depending on the applicant's skills relative to what is listed in the posted job.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dscabra

Not exactly. The pay bands allow for growth within a level. We define levels based on years of experience and education. When I hire a new college graduate as a level one, I try to get them below the mid-point in the band. We look at two years experience as a level 1 before promoting to level 2. In that two years, they will be 5-10% above the mid-point, which will put them around 5% below the mid point for a level 2 with a 10% bump for the promotion. It continues up through the levels with longer experience required as you move up. Some people will hit the limits of their potential at level 4, for example. The wider band allows for raises well beyond the mid-point in these cases. I also have the flexibility to go up or down one level depending on the applicant's skills relative to what is listed in the posted job.

I think that's fine and understandable... where the problem is when the candidate is given a range that the hiring manager had no intention of hiring him at... growth blah blah, midpoints is a totally different thing.

If you say 100-160k... but you intend to only hire at 125-135... with a 5% outerband like you said... then you need to announce that beforehand (same with the recruiter and the job posting if applicable). I imagine the reason you would not do this like most other companies is thinking that you will get a candidate that is 160K qualified at a 130K pay... i.e. underpay... that is just not genuine and creates headaches for candidates. It's similar with linkedin and all of the recruiters that are on there... i feel like I am talking to clowns half the time.

The range will be X to Y when I am talking to them... ok so here is what I expect... the response is well that will be dependent on experience and other factors... you have my resume, here is my expectation... don't waste my time if you don't intend to hit this number... they immediately get flustered lol....it's like talking to a desperate realtor most of the time. Or then the offer comes and its below and I will say... well here is what we talked about... well that's for negotiation... no this is not what we talked about... you once again lied. I don't care about your company policy, this is not what you told me.

Be careful with these approaches because with more and more younger people and salary transparency, you will have a lot of ghosts for your jobs in the future.