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      04-07-2022, 04:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R N M View Post
Correct it’s a Fleet average but pure ICE cars will be gone completely.

New Mustang is rumored to be V8 hybrid.
Next gen 911 will most likely be a hybrid.
Cayman and Macan will be fully EV.

Even Dodge is getting rid of Hellcat etc after 2023.

What ICE cars will there be in 2026?
What ICE cars will there be in 2026? Basically everything that's just been released that's not an EV or hybrid will still be around in 2026. If you are talking about new vehicle introductions after 2026, even a 48v mild hybrid would technically be a "hybrid".
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      04-07-2022, 05:11 PM   #24
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Fwiw ford has said they are dedicated to ice on enthusiast platforms until sales die. That mean mustang and bronco will be ice for awhile. Dodge seems to be back tracking on its ev announcement and talking about a hydrogen engine. Ford too actually. Chevy… who knows they Camaro is still getting killed soon afaik
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      04-07-2022, 05:36 PM   #25
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Perhaps
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Giulia QV

I think there will be several additions to the garage with ICE before I go in on an EV
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      04-07-2022, 05:55 PM   #26
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Oh look, another death of ICE thread. 49mpg by 2026, about as realistic as anything else these political turds can come up with. Let's kill more coal power plants, and shut down some more pipelines to get all those EV cars charged. Simply cannot lose.

Let's make another cars will all be driving themselves in a year thread too, that's coming for sure just like I've heard for the last ten years.
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      04-07-2022, 06:05 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer View Post
Fwiw ford has said they are dedicated to ice on enthusiast platforms until sales die. That mean mustang and bronco will be ice for awhile. Dodge seems to be back tracking on its ev announcement and talking about a hydrogen engine. Ford too actually. Chevy… who knows they Camaro is still getting killed soon afaik
Unfortunately thats not the latest reports - the head Mustang engineer couldn’t even say how long the manual will be around.

I think even if these cars stay ICE - they will be further compromised with reduced power / sound with things like particulate filters and other nonsense to keep emissions down.
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      04-07-2022, 06:07 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Oh look, another death of ICE thread. 49mpg by 2026, about as realistic as anything else these political turds can come up with. Let's kill more coal power plants, and shut down some more pipelines to get all those EV cars charged. Simply cannot lose.

Let's make another cars will all be driving themselves in a year thread too, that's coming for sure just like I've heard for the last ten years.
I agree it’s unfortunate but the requirements in Europe are even higher that’s why the Germans are going all in on EVs to lower the fleet average as they still need to make ICE trucks / Suvs.
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      04-07-2022, 07:41 PM   #29
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This one. Manual, V8, keeps up with 911s on the track. Already in my stable
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      04-07-2022, 07:53 PM   #30
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I thought this was happening a few years early so I already bought my final ICE cars - a 570s and a GT3 Touring. I'm considering flipping one of them for a Huracan Evo or Performante, but I'm pretty happy where I am even if I don't
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      04-07-2022, 08:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cos270 View Post
Have you been on Bring a Trailer or Facebook Marketplace recently? People aren't necessarily buying because of any specific rule, but the rhetoric and constant headlines of countries announcing policies (whether they'll actually be enacted or not) is enough to scare enthusiasts into buying what they want while they still can. If you don't think that's happening I'd like some more of whatever you're smoking.
Yes, since I have a different, and more realistic non-extreme viewpoint, there must be something wrong with me. Go ahead and panic. I'll sit over here and laugh at you.

Last edited by Mason Hatcher; 04-07-2022 at 08:31 PM..
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      04-07-2022, 08:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by R N M View Post
You must not have tried to purchase a performance car lately new or used lol.
The CAFE rule has nothing to do with the current crazy market. And I just bought a 2020 M340i last November.

You can panic too, though.
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      04-07-2022, 09:58 PM   #33
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Threads like this depress me.

My personal forever cars:

-911 - probably the most sensible DD. Looks great, drives great, generations of pedigree, holds its value, relatively reliable
-M2 - the closest modern BMW to really capturing the "spirit" of the brand's heritage. It's reminiscent of a different time and philosophy in Munich
-Giulia Quadrifoglio

And as far as classics go: E46 M3 and a Ferrari in Rosso Corsa.
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      04-08-2022, 06:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Hatcher View Post
Yes, since I have a different, and more realistic non-extreme viewpoint, there must be something wrong with me. Go ahead and panic. I'll sit over here and laugh at you.
Your viewpoint can be that the ban of ICE cars isn't going to happen, that's fine. But it's an objective fact that there are people buying enthusiast/performance ICE cars with the motivations outlined in the first post. Is it overblown? Possibly, but you can't deny that it's happening on some level.

I really wish I was wrong, but I'm working in the kitchen and I can see the sausage being made. Believe me, it's happening. Whether we want to or not, we're all going to be eating it.
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      04-08-2022, 06:58 AM   #35
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I continue to be in the camp that says the new regs are impossible to meet, ICE will be around for a LONG time. 5 years ago I predicted a roughly equal market share between electric, hybrid and ICE in physically large western countries and I stand by that.

In saying that, the rot has already started, so many new cars are turbo charged, i understand the desire to meet false emissions targets (turbo charged cars effectively cheat on their test cycle) and the desire for huge torque numbers but the lag and lack of theatre has drained the soul from many sporty orientated cars.

I have a deposit down on a 997.2, final inspection this weekend. Hydraulic steering, naturally aspirated, wants to be revved to make power, not the greatest NVH....... seems to fit the bill for what ails us.
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      04-08-2022, 08:21 AM   #36
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I will add that I think the V8 M3's are going to rise sharply in price, like 100K in a few years. I can just smell it. People are realising that these cars with massive low end torque are not a lot of fun hustling on public roads. I rented a Coyote mustang last year and man, it actually doesn't mind a bit of a rev compared tot he GM V8's but even then, it's got big torque numbers so truth be told, you tickle the throttle and ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhh i am 30km/h over the limit already.

The E92 or whatever it is called, needs to rev out to have fun as there's bugger all bottom end.
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      04-08-2022, 09:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I continue to be in the camp that says the new regs are impossible to meet, ICE will be around for a LONG time. 5 years ago I predicted a roughly equal market share between electric, hybrid and ICE in physically large western countries and I stand by that.

In saying that, the rot has already started, so many new cars are turbo charged, i understand the desire to meet false emissions targets (turbo charged cars effectively cheat on their test cycle) and the desire for huge torque numbers but the lag and lack of theatre has drained the soul from many sporty orientated cars.

I have a deposit down on a 997.2, final inspection this weekend. Hydraulic steering, naturally aspirated, wants to be revved to make power, not the greatest NVH....... seems to fit the bill for what ails us.
I still miss how my E90 328's N52 delivered its power. So smooth and refined and without any lag. BMW and their mastery of straight 6 engines.
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      04-08-2022, 09:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I have a deposit down on a 997.2, final inspection this weekend. Hydraulic steering, naturally aspirated, wants to be revved to make power, not the greatest NVH....... seems to fit the bill for what ails us.
I think so. Even a stock 997.2 is still quite refined. It's got those great attributes mentioned but for my taste its still too polished. That's ok, taking stuff like sound deadening and extra carpets out of the car is free and goes a long way towards unburdening the car of extra weight and a slightly posh feeling it really doesn't need to have.
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      04-08-2022, 09:46 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I continue to be in the camp that says the new regs are impossible to meet, ICE will be around for a LONG time. 5 years ago I predicted a roughly equal market share between electric, hybrid and ICE in physically large western countries and I stand by that.

In saying that, the rot has already started, so many new cars are turbo charged, i understand the desire to meet false emissions targets (turbo charged cars effectively cheat on their test cycle) and the desire for huge torque numbers but the lag and lack of theatre has drained the soul from many sporty orientated cars.

I have a deposit down on a 997.2, final inspection this weekend. Hydraulic steering, naturally aspirated, wants to be revved to make power, not the greatest NVH....... seems to fit the bill for what ails us.
I agree that ICE cars will be around but not high performance ones. Look at even Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus - they all have hybrid or EVs planned for next gen cars. New M5 will be hybrid etc.

Once you commit to this and allocate funds - its not easy to go back to pure ICE.

Also even the current gen cars all have dumb things like rev limiters, particulate filters, muted exhausts etc. I just don’t see much promise of ICE cars sticking around when most manufacturers announced next gen cars that are EVs or Hybrid.
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      04-08-2022, 09:47 AM   #40
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Saab 9-3 turbo x or a regulator 2.8!

Love to tune on of these!

Rumours has it that there was a 400hp version in the making and when a boss at GM/corvette got to drive it, he was like scrap this! We won’t be able to sell any corvette if this hits the market as the handling and performance was better than their lineup at the time
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      04-08-2022, 09:51 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cos270 View Post
Your viewpoint can be that the ban of ICE cars isn't going to happen, that's fine. But it's an objective fact that there are people buying enthusiast/performance ICE cars with the motivations outlined in the first post. Is it overblown? Possibly, but you can't deny that it's happening on some level.

I really wish I was wrong, but I'm working in the kitchen and I can see the sausage being made. Believe me, it's happening. Whether we want to or not, we're all going to be eating it.
100%

Just go on any enthusiast forum and they say hey I always wanted X car and now is my final chance to get it before it’s cancelled or on used ones - before prices skyrocket.

Look at WRX Sti - cancelled with no warning.
Mazda6 with inline 6 and RWD also cancelled.
Cayman/Boxster - confirmed to be EV only

Believe me this is having effect on market for enthusiast cars.
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      04-08-2022, 09:51 AM   #42
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i've got my M2C and that checks the box for me. ordered new to the exact spec i wanted.

i would love to add a Z3M at some point...

porsches hung on my wall through college, but i'm not going to settle for a base boxster and everything else is insane. maybe when/if the bubble bursts...
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      04-08-2022, 10:21 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R N M View Post
I agree that ICE cars will be around but not high performance ones. Look at even Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus - they all have hybrid or EVs planned for next gen cars. New M5 will be hybrid etc.

Once you commit to this and allocate funds - its not easy to go back to pure ICE.

Also even the current gen cars all have dumb things like rev limiters, particulate filters, muted exhausts etc. I just don’t see much promise of ICE cars sticking around when most manufacturers announced next gen cars that are EVs or Hybrid.
True but I think some ICE models will hang around as very high-priced hybrids. Porsche 911, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, McLarens, Koeinegsegg, etc. strike me as the brands that will hold off a pure EV fleet for as long as they can. They will try to offer EVs but also hybrids to keep ICE alive.

But yeah this sucks for your average enthusiast since all these cars are mega expensive and exclusive. Eventually the M division, AMG division, Quadrifoglios, Boxsters etc. may not have any ICE offerings.

I do think American muscle cars and Japanese sports cars will also continue to offer ICE for some time, but those cars have never interested me. Maybe they will start appealing to me over the next decade...
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      04-08-2022, 10:59 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I will add that I think the V8 M3's are going to rise sharply in price, like 100K in a few years. I can just smell it. People are realising that these cars with massive low end torque are not a lot of fun hustling on public roads. I rented a Coyote mustang last year and man, it actually doesn't mind a bit of a rev compared tot he GM V8's but even then, it's got big torque numbers so truth be told, you tickle the throttle and ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhh i am 30km/h over the limit already.

The E92 or whatever it is called, needs to rev out to have fun as there's bugger all bottom end.
I’ve owned a Coyote Mustang before the M2, and now I have the Camaro. Coyote did rev a bit higher, but the LT1 doesn’t shy away from revs either. Both cars love to accelerate. Camaro can do ~100 MPH in 3rd gear. 4th will get you to ~140mph. Love it!!

And low end torque is also a great thing. Pass in any gear without breaking a sweat. Downshift when you need to do it in a hurry.
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