Trump Tax Hike for the Middle Class

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

That is her opinion. Tough to expect her to have a different opinion when she is currently paid so well by the current system (assuming average specialist pay rate).

Everyone blames the government for everything. Happens here too. But when left to their devices, corporations can be downright deplorable. Think Enron here.

And her argument would carry more weight if the simple numbers were not so damning:

Health Care Cost Per Person (2015):

1 - Mexico - $1,052
...
18 - Finland - $3,984
...
24 - Canada - $4,608 (man, we can do better - I blame lawyers)
...
35 - USA - $9,451 (yikes - and last on the OECD list)

And another fun stat is the insurance administrative burden of Canadian single payer healthcare vs the US system:

Canada - ~2%
USA - ~12%

This means that 12% of the money spent on healthcare in the USA goes to an insurance companie's bottom line. Sounds like fun...

I personally do not think that healthcare should be a for-profit business. It would be nice to ensure that it is efficient, but I will take universal and inefficient before exclusive and profitable any day.

I agree with the bolded part, which is why I thought ACA was destined to fail over the long term. It forced more people into something that isn't working well, including many who were not paying anything, but were consuming a lot. What a surprise that drug prices spiked when people got insurance to pay for prescriptions. Health insurance does not function like other forms of insurance - it controls too much of the system as currently structured.

However, the fact that the healthcare system isn't properly regulated is far from a good reason to switch to a single payer system. Our VA system is a case in point and, as you noted, single payer systems elsewhere are far from perfect.

You may want to start a separate thread on this topic, since it is not directly related to the 2017 tax reform. The original reference to ACA was in response to a comments related to Republicans slamming through tax reform (as Democrats did with ACA).

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by jgoens

In theory this makes sense but the reality is, is that it is IMPOSSIBLE as the motivation to improve equipment and come up with new drugs is motivated by profit. Without the motivation of profit, the desire to improve healthcare would be so slow as to barely make any progress.

And therein lies the problem I guess. Gone are the days when money did not drive every decision. Diabetics around the world can be thankful Banting and his team were more altruistic than their modern day counterparts.

In the words of Snoop Dog: "Make money money, Make money money monaay!!"

Peace out.

[jgoens]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

And therein lies the problem I guess. Gone are the days when money did not drive every decision. Diabetics around the world can be thankful Banting and his team were more altruistic than their modern day counterparts.

In the words of Snoop Dog: "Make money money, Make money money monaay!!"

Peace out.

Yeah, I don't think there were ever days where money did not drive a decision to produce a product, but the amounts are so massive now that the first priority is how much profit can we make (for our shareholders and executives) vs how beneficial is the product. Some of these Opioids are a good example of this.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by jgoens

In theory this makes sense but the reality is, is that it is IMPOSSIBLE as the motivation to improve equipment and come up with new drugs is motivated by profit. Without the motivation of profit, the desire to improve healthcare would be so slow as to barely make any progress.

I'm not sure how to fix the healthcare system, however it's definitely fucked.

However specifically to the above statement. I don't know how the bio med field works, but do the researches who discover new drugs get any kind of cut from it's sales? Or are they just regular salaried employees?

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

Be prepared to pay more tax with fewer deductions. If your mortgage is more than $500K you get no interest tax deduction beyond $500K. No property tax deduction beyond $10K. No tax deduction for HELOC interest. No tax deduction for second homes, investment properties, which can make or break whether you make any money. Tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations. Tax cuts for corporations are paid for by tax increases on the middle class.

$500k home = middle class?

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

$500k home = middle class?

Here in CA yes. I think it is $750k
Actually, which is still within the range for middle class. Anything below $500k here is either a tiny house or in the ghetto.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

Here in CA yes. I think it is $750k
Actually, which is still within the range for middle class. Anything below $500k here is either a tiny house or in the ghetto.

Only in CA.....

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

That is her opinion. Tough to expect her to have a different opinion when she is currently paid so well by the current system (assuming average specialist pay rate).

Everyone blames the government for everything. Happens here too. But when left to their devices, corporations can be downright deplorable. Think Enron here.

And her argument would carry more weight if the simple numbers were not so damning:

Health Care Cost Per Person (2015):

1 - Mexico - $1,052
...
18 - Finland - $3,984
...
24 - Canada - $4,608 (man, we can do better - I blame lawyers)
...
35 - USA - $9,451 (yikes - and last on the OECD list)

And another fun stat is the insurance administrative burden of Canadian single payer healthcare vs the US system:

Canada - ~2%
USA - ~12%

This means that 12% of the money spent on healthcare in the USA goes to an insurance companie's bottom line. Sounds like fun...

I personally do not think that healthcare should be a for-profit business. It would be nice to ensure that it is efficient, but I will take universal and inefficient before exclusive and profitable any day.

Lol!
I'm going with the opinion of someone who has nearly a quarter century of education at the finest private institutions in this country and works on the front-lines of the medical profession as well as in administrative functions, which also happens to match the opinions of nearly every physician I know. (And I know hundreds personally.)

While those numbers are damning please rewind the clock to the point that the government wasn't so intrusive and you will see a different statistical set. As far as your assessment of the profit motive and the altruism of Mr. Banting, (I spent over 10 years working in the diabetes space in multiple EVIL CORPORATIONS who worked diligently to make certain every patient is able to access their medication.) I suggest you read more than the glossy history of discovery and get down in the weeds. You will learn something different.

The funniest thing is see in every argument against our healthcare, which is admittedly imperfect, is the ability of every critic to COMPLETELY IGNORE, the fact the more than almost any other nation, we are a heterogenous society with different cultural healthcare mores which also impacts the delivery of healthcare as well as outcomes. Missing this MOST IMPORTANT point lets me know that your and all other arguments of this ilk are from a point of ignorance.

Lastly on the innovation point, I don't know many people who slave over their brainchild to bring it to fruition without a plan to make a profit. There is nothing wrong with this and it is, quite often, the dream of my fellow citizens. Americans are different with a can-do attitude that I have found sadly lacking in many in our fellow global populace. The very nature of our citizenry is to do better and make it to the next level. This drives us and drives the things we do whether some like it or not. Again, sadly this is being extinguished by the drive to mediocrity and sameness that I see occurring in our land. Your comment on accepting universal and inefficient makes me gag. I, for one, will not be a part of it and hold myself and all around me to higher levels of accountability and excellence.

Innovate. Deliver results. Succeed. Help one more.

Cheers-mk

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by jgoens

In theory this makes sense but the reality is, is that it is IMPOSSIBLE as the motivation to improve equipment and come up with new drugs is motivated by profit. Without the motivation of profit, the desire to improve healthcare would be so slow as to barely make any progress.

Non-profit doesn’t mean you don’t reinvest some portion of gains back into the system. It just dictates how the gains are spent. I worked at a non profit for a couple years and they charged just as much as the competition, they just put profits back into the business.

[jgoens]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Lol!

Lastly on the innovation point, I don't know many people who slave over their brainchild to bring it to fruition without a plan to make a profit. There is nothing wrong with this and it is, quite often, the dream of my fellow citizens. Americans are different with a can-do attitude that I have found sadly lacking in many in our fellow global populace. The very nature of our citizenry is to do better and make it to the next level. This drives us and drives the things we do whether some like it or not. Again, sadly this is being extinguished by the drive to mediocrity and sameness that I see occurring in our land. Your comment on accepting universal and inefficient makes me gag. I, for one, will not be a part of it and hold myself and all around me to higher levels of accountability and excellence.

Innovate. Deliver results. Succeed. Help one more.

Cheers-mk

And let us not forget that the rest of the world generally benefits with our innovation and sacrifice, our being the public not the companies and shareholders. IN that sense the American public is paying the price so that the rest of the world can be healthier.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

Only in CA.....

Trump is punishing the democratic states that voted against him.

[PoorLurker]

But these are mortgages of $750k. Don't most people buying million dollar homes have equity from other houses in which they "upgrade"?

Buy condo
sell
reinvest equity and savings into new more expensive home?

Can someone even get a $750k loan with 3% or 10% down?

Even no money down $750k will get you into nice areas. (nice not exclusive)

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

Here in CA yes. I think it is $750k
Actually, which is still within the range for middle class. Anything below $500k here is either a tiny house or in the ghetto.

In Austin, TX a $750k home is way above middle class. Middle class homes cost about $350k - $400k for 3800 sq ft, 4 bd, 4 bath, 2 car garage, etc.

$350k - 400K home:







$750k home

[are0lies]

Well damn, I'm moving to Texas. I can pay cash there, and price everyone out. JK Unfortunatley this is our reality in California. And this is nor even a decent place.

[KenB925]

This is about the cheapest single family home in San Ramon, a bedroom community in the East Bay, good schools etc

People tend to list low to get a bidding war going, lately it has worked.

A shitty 2 bedroom apartment style condo is $480,000

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Lol!
I'm going with the opinion of someone who has nearly a quarter century of education at the finest private institutions in this country and works on the front-lines of the medical profession as well as in administrative functions, which also happens to match the opinions of nearly every physician I know. (And I know hundreds personally.)

While those numbers are damning please rewind the clock to the point that the government wasn't so intrusive and you will see a different statistical set. As far as your assessment of the profit motive and the altruism of Mr. Banting, (I spent over 10 years working in the diabetes space in multiple EVIL CORPORATIONS who worked diligently to make certain every patient is able to access their medication.) I suggest you read more than the glossy history of discovery and get down in the weeds. You will learn something different.

The funniest thing is see in every argument against our healthcare, which is admittedly imperfect, is the ability of every critic to COMPLETELY IGNORE, the fact the more than almost any other nation, we are a heterogenous society with different cultural healthcare mores which also impacts the delivery of healthcare as well as outcomes. Missing this MOST IMPORTANT point lets me know that your and all other arguments of this ilk are from a point of ignorance.

Lastly on the innovation point, I don't know many people who slave over their brainchild to bring it to fruition without a plan to make a profit. There is nothing wrong with this and it is, quite often, the dream of my fellow citizens. Americans are different with a can-do attitude that I have found sadly lacking in many in our fellow global populace. The very nature of our citizenry is to do better and make it to the next level. This drives us and drives the things we do whether some like it or not. Again, sadly this is being extinguished by the drive to mediocrity and sameness that I see occurring in our land. Your comment on accepting universal and inefficient makes me gag. I, for one, will not be a part of it and hold myself and all around me to higher levels of accountability and excellence.

Innovate. Deliver results. Succeed. Help one more.

Cheers-mk

Excellent points. I freely admit that there are so many sides and arguments to this as well as the OP tax topic. This experiment that is modern democracy is pretty neat though. Allows us to live together, discuss ideas and prosper regardless of our opinions etc. Could be a lot worse.

I really hope that the tax cuts work out as planned. I also hope that American healthcare can become inclusive for all citizens, but that is my liberal side coming out.

To keep this thread on topic, house prices in Canada are similar to the US in that they vary wildly from location to location. My house in Vancouver would be multi million dollars. My dirt patch alone would be a million plus. In rural Ontario, it might possibly be worth $300K, possibly less depending on location. While wages do fluctuate across the country, they do not change as significantly as the house prices.

Middle class incomes are not fixed in stone across our countries and it is so very hard to draft a one-size-fits-all legislation that works. It will be interesting to see if these changes are positive or negative for lower and middle class individuals. Time will most certainly tell.

In the mean time, I am going to try not to freeze to death on the surface of Hoth.



Cheers and Happy New Year!!

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

My sister, a practicing specialty physician, board member of national physician and health organizations, and a C-suite hospital administrator for nearly 30 years was asked over the the holiday what the biggest problem for healthcare in the US was and her response was: The continued and increasingly intrusive involvement of the government in healthcare.

Her being a doctor =/= being informed on government regulation.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by jgoens

In theory this makes sense but the reality is, is that it is IMPOSSIBLE as the motivation to improve equipment and come up with new drugs is motivated by profit. Without the motivation of profit, the desire to improve healthcare would be so slow as to barely make any progress.

This is absolutely false and contrary to the facts/studies on this matter.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Her being a doctor =/= being informed on government regulation.

She has to make certain her facilities are compliant which means she is highly informed on the regs.

Are you coming south for New Years?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

She has to make certain her facilities are compliant which means she is highly informed on the regs.

Are you coming south for New Years?

https://www.ama-assn.org/ama-health-reform-vision

Most medical professionals appose the GOP's "reforms" to healthcare - the ACA was a good compromise in their eyes.

I actually have ZERO plans for New Years, and everyone is looking to me to plan something.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

https://www.ama-assn.org/ama-health-reform-vision

Most medical professionals appose the GOP's "reforms" to healthcare - the ACA was a good compromise in their eyes.

I actually have ZERO plans for New Years, and everyone is looking to me to plan something.

The AMA has almost zero relevance with physicians and their membership is down markedly because they have failed in their primary mission of being an advocacy group for physicians.

If the ACA was a good compromise in their eyes why did almost no one take the insurance? The theory is fine but the resultant law execution was horrible.

PM me if you head this way. My buddy just opened a bar and restaurant and is having a big party. Place seats about 125.

[CreoUCLA]

Originally Posted by PoorLurker

Can someone even get a $750k loan with 3% or 10% down?

For a primary SFR/condo, There are Jumbo loan programs that allow a 10% down payment (depending on the scenario), but you pay through the nose in the higher rate.

3% down typically is capped at a $453,100 loan amount (starting in 2018) through Fannie Mae.

3.5% down FHA is capped at a $679,650 loan amount (starting in 2018) in L.A./Orange counties.