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      04-28-2019, 06:27 PM   #1761
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
What's wrong with Tesla management? They generate no free cash flow or profit. Meanwhile their market cap is an unjustified $51 billion. They delivered 76 thousand vehicles in 2016. In contrast a company like Ford generated nearly $13 Billion in free cash flow and a net profit of almost $5 billion. In 2016 they delivered 6 MILLION vehicles. Their market cap? $45 billion. Tesla is worth more than Ford? Something is wrong here.

How can they do better? See above. Also perhaps they should prove they have a viable product that can sustain sales without government incentives.


What's your take on BYD then?
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      04-28-2019, 07:46 PM   #1762
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"Shenma Special Car" a Chinese company upset with the low quality of the 278 Teslas it purchased, is going to pay for ads to be put on the Times Square Reuters billboard saying, "Can not repair" and "Don't pay for it!"

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1147807.shtml

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      04-28-2019, 07:52 PM   #1763
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"Shenma Special Car" a Chinese company upset with the low quality of the 278 Teslas it purchased, is going to pay for ads to be put on the Times Square Reuters billboard saying, "Can not repair" and "Don't pay for it!"

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1147807.shtml

Hahahaha
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      04-28-2019, 08:01 PM   #1764
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When a Chinese company complains about low quality... Things are bad.
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      04-30-2019, 04:08 PM   #1765
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Tesla is 1000 Panasonic AAs taped together under the floor. This isn't advanced at all, you realize this? BMW does the same thing in the i performance cars.

The motors in BMW are also better than Tesla was using until just recently when Tesla switched over.

The only thing Tesla has going for it is a head start. Tech wise EVs are really simple at this point.
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      04-30-2019, 04:45 PM   #1766
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Electric cars manufacturing generates 1 ton more of emissions than a gas car:




BUT still generates 50% less over the span of it's use and disposal. It's not a hard concept unless you just don't like electric cars for some other reason.
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      05-01-2019, 12:36 AM   #1767
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this year wont be an easy year for Tesla..
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      05-01-2019, 10:40 AM   #1768
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Oh my... look where the revenue came from:



https://wolfstreet.com/2019/04/24/te...nother-doozie/
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      05-01-2019, 11:16 AM   #1769
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Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Tesla is 1000 Panasonic AAs taped together under the floor. This isn't advanced at all, you realize this? BMW does the same thing in the i performance cars.

The motors in BMW are also better than Tesla was using until just recently when Tesla switched over.

The only thing Tesla has going for it is a head start. Tech wise EVs are really simple at this point.
BMW EV owner here - this is a stretch.

No one can get their hands on enough of those 2170 AA cells... they're an advantage. Conceptually the tech is simple (Tesla has released all its patents), but scale and vertical integration will elude Germany for a while.
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      05-01-2019, 12:29 PM   #1770
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Oh my... look where the revenue came from:



https://wolfstreet.com/2019/04/24/te...nother-doozie/
Pollution credits are actually beneficial to everyone. It's not like we taxpayers aren't getting anything out of it. Health is still very important despite being the less glamours benefits.
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      05-01-2019, 12:34 PM   #1771
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Mercedes has announced that they will discontinue the sales of the electric Smart Car in North America at the end of 2019 due to poor sales. I only mention this because it's created a lot of discussion on the talk radio stations. Sales of Tesla and all EV's for that matter fell off dramatically when the Ontario government cut the rebates. I still think we're a long way from EV's becoming mainstream.
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      05-01-2019, 01:13 PM   #1772
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Pollution credits are actually beneficial to everyone. It's not like we taxpayers aren't getting anything out of it. Health is still very important despite being the less glamours benefits.
The point is the company generated profit from something outside of selling their vehicles.
Is TSLA's primary source of revenue going to be selling Carbon Credits and RIN?
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      05-01-2019, 01:21 PM   #1773
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Pollution credits are actually beneficial to everyone. It's not like we taxpayers aren't getting anything out of it. Health is still very important despite being the less glamours benefits.
The point is the company generated profit from something outside of selling their vehicles.
Is TSLA's primary source of revenue going to be selling Carbon Credits and RIN?
The credits are functioning as intended. EVs are a hard sell to the public who are used to the ICE and the infrastructure supporting it. Can anyone really doubt that Tesla was a kick in the pants to other manufacturers to set up their game which sped up R&D on a new technology? The tax credits are a stimuli for a burgeoning market and IMHO they did their job. Even if people think Tesla is evil, it was a necessary evil that overall is pushing the market forward.
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Last edited by jmg; 05-01-2019 at 01:29 PM..
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      05-01-2019, 01:27 PM   #1774
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Well, that graph is not a fair picture. I'd say it must have been created by sources biased against Tesla. Taxpayer-funded pollution credit. Yeah, right.
Assuming the numbers are correct... it's not like Tesla only sold Carbon Credits 3 quarters. They sell every quarter. If not for Carbon Credits, their losses would be even bigger.
During those 3 quarters, they also sold enough cars to make the final numbers out of the red. Why attribute the positive result to Carbon Credits only?

Basically, you can't get from A to B overnight, especially when the technology isn't quite there (Tesla had to build it's own Megafactory), or everybody would be there already. Tesla chose to borrow shit-tons of money, and they got to B faster than anybody else. Now they need to pay the banks. Others who didn't borrow... they need to pay Tesla for their inaction. It's all part of the Carbon Credit design. But the graph makes it look evil.
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      05-01-2019, 01:34 PM   #1775
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EVs are a hard sell to the public who are used to the ICE and the infrastructure supporting it.
exactly... the demand they boasted about is not there. the sales they promised are not there. the company as a whole is just not there. the executives and board are not there.
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      05-01-2019, 01:38 PM   #1776
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exactly... the demand they boasted about is not there. the sales they promised are not there. the company as a whole is just not there. the executives and board are not there.
I think the potential is there. We need more infrastructure to support it. Most people would be very happy in an EV and our quality of life will be improved overall with more EVs on the road. These stimuli are necessary to facilitate that.
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      05-01-2019, 02:38 PM   #1777
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I think the potential is there. We need more infrastructure to support it. Most people would be very happy in an EV and our quality of life will be improved overall with more EVs on the road. These stimuli are necessary to facilitate that.
The disconnect seems to me with regards to the "infrastructure", gas stations and distribution is handled by private for profit companies. In Canada anyway most power infrastructure and delivery is in the hands of government or government agencies. Seems to me the private sector (oil companies) have more incentive to build and supply gas stations vs the cost to install the required infrastructure to deliver the power demands that may be required if demand for EV's ever gets big.
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      05-01-2019, 03:38 PM   #1778
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I think the potential is there.
For EV? Yes. For Tesla? No. Not in it's current state. It needs a massive revamp. So much going on with the company and now their flag ship vehicle is long in the tooth even with a refresh and will need to be replaced but I doubt they have the funds for r&d on a completely new gen and everything else wrong with the company. As I said many times... I am not against EV or hybrid or even Diesel but I am not a fan of Tesla the car, the company or Musk. At all. I am not alone; Institutions are stepping away from TSLA and getting out of their positions. Many are not shorting but they are pairing down positions and most likely investing elsewhere in the coming quarters.

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In Canada anyway most power infrastructure and delivery is in the hands of government or government agencies. Seems to me the private sector (oil companies) have more incentive to build and supply gas stations vs the cost to install the required infrastructure to deliver the power demands that may be required if demand for EV's ever gets big.
I have family members who work for the energy supplier in our area. They fear that if EV grows at a faster pace the grid that they would draw from could not support it since it is barely supporting what is on it now. It is an outdated infrastructure without the ability to updated at a rapid rate or conservative cost.
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      05-01-2019, 04:31 PM   #1779
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
The disconnect seems to me with regards to the "infrastructure", gas stations and distribution is handled by private for profit companies. In Canada anyway most power infrastructure and delivery is in the hands of government or government agencies. Seems to me the private sector (oil companies) have more incentive to build and supply gas stations vs the cost to install the required infrastructure to deliver the power demands that may be required if demand for EV's ever gets big.
When more and more people drive EV's, the incentives will materialize. Residential and commercial solar panels will also relieve a good portion of the workload.
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      05-01-2019, 04:32 PM   #1780
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I think the potential is there.
For EV? For Tesla? Not in it's current state. It needs a massive revamp. So much going on with the company and now their flag ship vehicle is long in the tooth even with a refresh and will need to be replaced but I doubt they have the funds for r&d on a completely new gen and everything else wrong with the company. As I said many times... I am not against EV or hybrid or even Diesel but I am not a fan of Tesla the car, the company or Musk. At all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
In Canada anyway most power infrastructure and delivery is in the hands of government or government agencies. Seems to me the private sector (oil companies) have more incentive to build and supply gas stations vs the cost to install the required infrastructure to deliver the power demands that may be required if demand for EV's ever gets big.
I have family members who work for the energy supplier in our area. They fear that if EV grows at a faster pace the grid that they would draw from could not support it since it is barely supporting what is on it now. It is an outdated infrastructure without the ability to updated at a rapid rate or conservative cost.
Tesla's well being concerns me less than how it stimulates growth and competition. Even in its downfall it will be good for us the consumer.

Residential and commercial solar panels will also relieve a good portion of the workload.
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      05-01-2019, 04:36 PM   #1781
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When more and more people drive EV's, the incentives will materialize. Residential and commercial solar panels will also relieve a good portion of the workload.
I'm not sure it's that easy. The infrastructure to support even 20% EV's would cost staggering amounts, and that burden will be on the tax payer. Given current tax rates I'm not sure folks are going to be happy with that.

When the push for EV's started some years ago, Toronto Hydro said that if 10% of the cars in Toronto were EV's the grid wouldn't be able to support it, brown outs would be the least of the problems. Solar panels on homes aren't cheap, so besides buying an EV I have to spend another $20K + to charge it.....this is a big complicated problem and I don't see it being resolved anytime soon.
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      05-01-2019, 06:59 PM   #1782
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
When more and more people drive EV's, the incentives will materialize. Residential and commercial solar panels will also relieve a good portion of the workload.
I'm not sure it's that easy. The infrastructure to support even 20% EV's would cost staggering amounts, and that burden will be on the tax payer. Given current tax rates I'm not sure folks are going to be happy with that.

When the push for EV's started some years ago, Toronto Hydro said that if 10% of the cars in Toronto were EV's the grid wouldn't be able to support it, brown outs would be the least of the problems. Solar panels on homes aren't cheap, so besides buying an EV I have to spend another $20K + to charge it.....this is a big complicated problem and I don't see it being resolved anytime soon.
I don't think anyone thinks it's going to be easy. It's going to be very hard before it becomes less hard and then eventually it will just be the status quo. I think we've come a long way from where we were 10 years ago and I don't see a reason to stop because there's still a ways to go, if anything we should be pushing forward even more. I don't see perseverance as a downfall.
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