Where does BMW go from here?

[Chris Rocks]

They're in the midst of a relative identity issue. It's primarily because they've remained stagnant for so long and the majority of the line up consists of "nicer" versions of everyday econoboxes. At one point in time you could easily point out that they had the Ultimate Driving Machine.

They're getting destroyed by Mercedes across every platform when it comes to luxury and destroyed by Porsche / Audi when it comes to sportiness. Even Tesla is outselling the 5 & 7 series, one of which was recently refreshed with what BMW considers modern tech, I guess.

It's gotten so bad that the tech in the brand new 7 series isn't even touching the tech in the E Class. Embarrassing.

The light at the end of the tunnel seems to begin with the Z4 & 8 Series but I've seen that tunnel close for the AG one too many times prior.

[wntrsnowg]

I don't have any brand loyalty but it sounds like you are exaggerating a tad

[turboawd]

Originally Posted by wntrsnowg

I don't have any brand loyalty but it sounds like you are exaggerating a tad

he's most definetly exaggerating

[c1pher]

All these brands seem to ebb and flow as their R&D efforts hit at different times. Honestly the tech across the board isn’t that dissimilar since the barrier to entry to provide higher tech is not as expensive. I think this is why manufacturers are stretching for things like autopilot because there isn’t a lot of innovation going on other than that or pre-collision systems. Headlight technologies are in a new era but America doesn’t allow them.

What high end materials can you ensconce me in other than leather and Alcantara? How do you make driver interfaces more intuitive without dealing with crappy voice recognition or having to look away and use a hand to negotiate?

I think performance and handling has been steadily improving across the board and even Kia Group has real performance cars now.

It’s a difficult time for everyone to try to break out.

[Delta0311]

I'm sure BMW will have something up its sleeve. I mean for fucks sake look at all the cars out there they all copied the iconic Chris Bangle BMW design.

[ASAP]

I think the only thing that could change is design a little bit and the driving experience could go back to being a little more fun... outside of tech like autopilot / electric cars, i honestly think we are close to capped as to what is possible / useful in a car.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Chris Rocks

They're in the midst of a relative identity issue.

Every automaker is in that same boat right now due to the disruption being caused by EV and autonomous tech. It will take another decade or more for that all to settle.

When it comes to the traditional ICE vehicle, BMW is right where they want to be with their product lineup. They are setting sales records despite the downturn in North America over the last few years. People are buying BMWs because people still love BMWs. If you try to put yourself in the shoes of a decision maker, you can perhaps appreciate that it would be difficult to press for a change in course when things are by and large working well the way they are.

For the times we live in now, BMW still builds the Ultimate Driving Machine. To those who've owned past generations of BMW vehicles, it may not be the BMW we know from yesterday. But as consumer trends shift, so much the industry. If what you want is a classic BMW then find one in nice condition, and buy it. This goes for fans of any automaker really, and for that matter, fans of any popular consumer good that must evolve as necessary to stay relevant over the course of decades or more.

[c63er]

There was a time when BMW rightly said the z4 and 7 series were the bookends for BMW. Albeit the statement was in reference to design, the apt statement underlined not simply the design but the very underlying core of BMW.

The z3/4 and 7 series as bookends. Think about that. The ideal of the two faces of BMW. Sport and luxury. Then everything in the middle would be a blend of sport and luxury in carrying degrees. A beautifully simple concept that worked wonders for BMW. Not only did it work wonders it gave a sense of direction and an idea of what was possible with the company.

Looking today the z4 will be a shared platform with Toyota built with an eye towards ultimate cost savings and an "all show who cares about substance" ethos. That is our sport bookend. The 7 series is now shadowed by an 8 series grand coupe and a more upscale 5 series. The lines of what is considered luxury at BMW are now very blurry.

Those are our two bookends now. Cheap pseudo sport on one end and confusion on the other end. With a blend of the two in between.

The title of your thread is accurate.

Now if you are a CEO at BMW charged with making as much profit as possible for your shareholders then everything is actually going perfectly. Because as the car market stands it's more profitable to sell a brand then a product. So as long as you can affix a BMW or M logo onto something in a unique way then you will get a sale.

This may not work in the long term as you damage your brand (as it looks like has happened in bmws case) but it is rare for a companies board to give a damn about that. It is the rare company with a strong and visionary leader who usually think about the long term bigger picture (Steve Jobs, Bezos, etc...)

[Bt12]

Design aside...My fam usually buys BMW’s typically because we like the quality of the finish and the service. And my wife’s perception it’s a reliable car.

[SCOTT26]

Where does BMW go from here?

Upwards and beyond...

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by c63er

There was a time when BMW rightly said the z4 and 7 series were the bookends for BMW. Albeit the statement was in reference to design, the apt statement underlined not simply the design but the very underlying core of BMW.

The z3/4 and 7 series as bookends. Think about that. The ideal of the two faces of BMW. Sport and luxury. Then everything in the middle would be a blend of sport and luxury in carrying degrees. A beautifully simple concept that worked wonders for BMW. Not only did it work wonders it gave a sense of direction and an idea of what was possible with the company.

Looking today the z4 will be a shared platform with Toyota built with an eye towards ultimate cost savings and an "all show who cares about substance" ethos. That is our sport bookend. The 7 series is now shadowed by an 8 series grand coupe and a more upscale 5 series. The lines of what is considered luxury at BMW are now very blurry.

Those are our two bookends now. Cheap pseudo sport on one end and confusion on the other end. With a blend of the two in between.

The title of your thread is accurate.

Now if you are a CEO at BMW charged with making as much profit as possible for your shareholders then everything is actually going perfectly. Because as the car market stands it's more profitable to sell a brand then a product. So as long as you can affix a BMW or M logo onto something in a unique way then you will get a sale.

This may not work in the long term as you damage your brand (as it looks like has happened in bmws case) but it is rare for a companies board to give a damn about that. It is the rare company with a strong and visionary leader who usually think about the long term bigger picture (Steve Jobs, Bezos, etc...)

The title of the thread is a question. How can it be accurate or inaccurate?

I have been buying BMWs for over 40 years and a lot has changed, but I still stand behind BMW. My M4 is the best BMW that I have owned out of 18. It has luxury and performance. Having owned it almost 4 years, I can also say it is very reliable with zero issue in that time. I also have a 2001 Z3 that we bought new in December 2000. Great car and definitely embodies sport and a decent level of luxury.

I, for one, don't believe that BMW have lost their way or lost their heritage and look forward to the future.

[overcoil]

In the March edition of ‘CAR’ in a comparison test of the brand new Audi A8L 50 TDI Quattro, Mercedes S350L AMG Line, BMW 740Ld xdrive Msport the BMW came in second along with this quote “At speed, the BMW 7-Series takes the driving honours...it doesn’t thump over potholes and rough spots as much as the A8...”

[tuco44]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

The title of the thread is a question. How can it be accurate or inaccurate?

I have been buying BMWs for over 40 years and a lot has changed, but I still stand behind BMW. My M4 is the best BMW that I have owned out of 18. It has luxury and performance. Having owned it almost 4 years, I can also say it is very reliable with zero issue in that time. I also have a 2001 Z3 that we bought new in December 2000. Great car and definitely embodies sport and a decent level of luxury.

I, for one, don't believe that BMW have lost their way or lost their heritage and look forward to the future.

I agree with you. LIke you, bought my first over 40 years ago (1971), and my F30 340i XDrive is my 19th. I do not think BMW has lost its way, but the times and driving conditions have changed over the years; and BMW has had to adapt to such changes. The "hard-edged" enthusiast is a dying breed.

[hardparker]

They need to get back to their roots with their cars, so... flying cars.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by hardparker

They need to get back to their roots with their cars, so... flying cars.

Or flying motorcycles

[Mr Carrots]

Originally Posted by c63er

There was a time when BMW rightly said the z4 and 7 series were the bookends for BMW. Albeit the statement was in reference to design, the apt statement underlined not simply the design but the very underlying core of BMW.

The z3/4 and 7 series as bookends. Think about that. The ideal of the two faces of BMW. Sport and luxury. Then everything in the middle would be a blend of sport and luxury in carrying degrees. A beautifully simple concept that worked wonders for BMW. Not only did it work wonders it gave a sense of direction and an idea of what was possible with the company.

Looking today the z4 will be a shared platform with Toyota built with an eye towards ultimate cost savings and an "all show who cares about substance" ethos. That is our sport bookend. The 7 series is now shadowed by an 8 series grand coupe and a more upscale 5 series. The lines of what is considered luxury at BMW are now very blurry.

Those are our two bookends now. Cheap pseudo sport on one end and confusion on the other end. With a blend of the two in between.

The title of your thread is accurate.

Now if you are a CEO at BMW charged with making as much profit as possible for your shareholders then everything is actually going perfectly. Because as the car market stands it's more profitable to sell a brand then a product. So as long as you can affix a BMW or M logo onto something in a unique way then you will get a sale.

This may not work in the long term as you damage your brand (as it looks like has happened in bmws case) but it is rare for a companies board to give a damn about that. It is the rare company with a strong and visionary leader who usually think about the long term bigger picture (Steve Jobs, Bezos, etc...)

The Z4 barely sold, but I'd much rather BMW refocused on making mass market, higher performance cars instead of 20 flavors of ugly SUV and FWD messes

To be fair they're being screwed by emissions, CAFE etc but it would be nice to have a solid 2/3/4/5 lineup that were clear industry leaders and not come up with abominations like the upcoming FWD 2 series or the X2

If they could be bold and make the 2/3/4 400 HP minimum with good steering feel and little body roll I'd be happy

[No Boost]

M or bust is my position regarding owning any BMW going forward.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tuco44

I agree with you. LIke you, bought my first over 40 years ago (1971), and my F30 340i XDrive is my 19th. I do not think BMW has lost its way, but the times and driving conditions have changed over the years; and BMW has had to adapt to such changes. The "hard-edged" enthusiast is a dying breed.

Agree with your comments. I've also been around BMW from the early 1970's, father had a New Class 2000 Sedan, which introduced me to BMW. Started driving BMWs in the late 70's.

I don't see BMW losing their way, simply changing with the times, legislation and user demands. From my perspective, user choices have never been so good.

Plus we are moving into another era, BMW's focus has to continuously change.

[neliconcept]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

The title of the thread is a question. How can it be accurate or inaccurate?

I have been buying BMWs for over 40 years and a lot has changed, but I still stand behind BMW. My M4 is the best BMW that I have owned out of 18. It has luxury and performance. Having owned it almost 4 years, I can also say it is very reliable with zero issue in that time. I also have a 2001 Z3 that we bought new in December 2000. Great car and definitely embodies sport and a decent level of luxury.

I, for one, don't believe that BMW have lost their way or lost their heritage and look forward to the future.

Finally!! someone said it. I don't get this crap about BMW sucks and mercedes and Audi rocks crap.

Mercedes look like bubbly pieces of crap, the C63 (new generation) is ugly both the coupe and the sedan. Audi all look the same, I can't tell the difference between an a4 and an a6.. like ever. Same goes for mercedes, look in the distance and a C class could be an S class, who knows..

The only Audi I like is the new RS5, SQ5 and R8. RS7 maybe. That's four cars for an entire brand.. Mercedes? I'd own a GT S and that is it. BMW has a ton of cars I live, the new M5, current M6 and M6 GC, I'd love an X5m, X5 35D in m sport package, new X3 m40i is beautiful, the 4 series GC is beautiful, m3,m4 I'd love to have. Even the M2. If you don't like BMW anymore then get another brand, thats the way I see it.

[ztx84]

I think that BMW is facing the same pressures as all automakers. Ultimately it is all about massive innovative disruption hitting the marketplace in the form of electric and autonomous tech (as stated by a previous poster). One argument is that in about 15-20 years time, maybe a bit more, car ownership (as we know it now) will simply not exist. When you want to get somewhere you will tap up an app on your phone, an autonomous car/pod will collect you and take you to your destination.

When you think about the pure economics of it, it makes sense - cars spend 95% to 99% of their lives parked, and not used. Where else in business do you have an asset that sits idle for that period of time? The counter to that is that car ownership is also a lot about status and image - what you drive says a lot about you, so its not all black and white. Like it or not a car is (in part) a symbol of status and an extension of you. My view would be though that car companies will need to reinvent themselves along the lines of "mobility providers" and the only cars that people will bother owning in future years are performance/exotic/classic machines. In much the same way that the internal combustion engine killed off travel by horses - Electric and autonomous tech will kill off car ownership as a model. BUT - people still ride horses for fun, and I would say the same will happen with cars... We drive because we like to and I feel that would continue. I think BMW is positioned better than some other car makers in that regard.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ztx84

I think that BMW is facing the same pressures as all automakers. Ultimately it is all about massive innovative disruption hitting the marketplace in the form of electric and autonomous tech (as stated by a previous poster). One argument is that in about 15-20 years time, maybe a bit more, car ownership (as we know it now) will simply not exist. When you want to get somewhere you will tap up an app on your phone, an autonomous car/pod will collect you and take you to your destination.

When you think about the pure economics of it, it makes sense - cars spend 95% to 99% of their lives parked, and not used. Where else in business do you have an asset that sits idle for that period of time? The counter to that is that car ownership is also a lot about status and image - what you drive says a lot about you, so its not all black and white. Like it or not a car is (in part) a symbol of status and an extension of you. My view would be though that car companies will need to reinvent themselves along the lines of "mobility providers" and the only cars that people will bother owning in future years are performance/exotic/classic machines. In much the same way that the internal combustion engine killed off travel by horses - Electric and autonomous tech will kill off car ownership as a model. BUT - people still ride horses for fun, and I would say the same will happen with cars... We drive because we like to and I feel that would continue. I think BMW is positioned better than some other car makers in that regard.

Maybe it is different in Europe, but in the USA, EV sales are barely over 1% of our market. 1% of the market is not "disruptive" force. What is a disruptive force is political legislation. IMO the world governments stance of anti-carbon combustion (low emissions and low fuel consumption) have made cars over complicated and expensive to maintain. BMWs have never been Japanese-level reliable and are expensive to repair (outside of DIYing). Throwing on direct injection and forced induction make BMW ownership that more expensive. Being BMW has softened its sport composure and other brands have caught up in chassis dynamics, the Roundel and good lease deals keep up BMW sales numbers. Their sport sedans sales have dropped off precipitously. BMW used to just make sport sedans; the best in the world IMO.

I don't understand your business model asset comment. Cars are transportation tools; no different than the tools sitting in my tool boxes that I use 5% of the time, or like the utensils in my kitchen, where I use them only when I eat.

You use your bed only about 33% of the day. Does it make sense to own one?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Maybe it is different in Europe, but in the USA, EV sales are barely over 1% of our market. 1% of the market is not "disruptive" force.

It’s not about today’s market, it’s about tomorrow’s market and the reallocation of resources toward new products. Like most every other automaker, BMW is being pushed into the future at an accelerated pace. You’ve probably seen the attached image which shows how many new electrified products BMW is working on for release in the next few years. Many of those products would not have been in the pipeline without disruption from the EV tech/mobility industry and expectations that have arisen due to the visibility cast on the technology.

What is a disruptive force is political legislation.

That’s one component of it, yes.