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      11-18-2022, 08:31 AM   #507
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      11-18-2022, 01:21 PM   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3798j View Post
Couple of things come to mind. The petulant, spoiled kid's actions have damaged the Verstappen franchise...and RBR's record of not being able to control its drivers remains intact.
Hasn't damaged Vettel's reputation, hasn't damaged Hamilton's reputation, hasn't damaged Schumacher's reputation, and it certainly hasn't damaged Senna's reputation as the GOAT as he is the only one on this list who was at war with another legendary driver and the FIA.

Verstappen will keep winning and keep building his legacy - all the other stuff will disappear into the wind like it always does.
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      11-18-2022, 01:26 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Hasn't damaged Vettel's reputation, hasn't damaged Hamilton's reputation, hasn't damaged Schumacher's reputation, and it certainly hasn't damaged Senna's reputation as the GOAT as he is the only one on this list who was at war with another legendary driver and the FIA.

Verstappen will keep winning and keep building his legacy - all the other stuff will disappear into the wind like it always does.
I do unfortunately agree with this. Besides his fans, most think Max and a lot of his family are jerks anyway and neither will change.
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      11-18-2022, 01:29 PM   #510
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I do unfortunately agree with this. Besides his fans, most think Max and a lot of his family are jerks anyway and that won’t change.
Exactly, my opinions of certain drivers will never change and the same goes for everyone else.

These threads will be so much better if we leave all the tabloid stuff out of the conversation that we're all guilty of. The fans care about it more than anyone in F1 does.

What would you have done if Porsche became the engine supplier for Max though?
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      11-18-2022, 01:30 PM   #511
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No professional legacy is ever ruined from what happens outside of the profession. You take all the greats in any sport. They all had their flaws whether it was gambling, infidelity to even being considered a piece of shit to most people yet we still celebrate their accomplishments within the sport.

F1 is no different. You can hate VER, VET, HAM, etc but their legacy within F1 will forever be celebrated based on their accomplishments and achievements within F1.
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      11-18-2022, 01:31 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Exactly, my opinions of certain drivers will never change and the same goes for everyone else.

These threads will be so much better if we leave all the tabloid stuff out of the conversation that we're all guilty of. The fans care about it more than anyone in F1 does.

What would you have done if Porsche became the engine supplier for Max though?
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      11-18-2022, 01:34 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
No professional legacy is ever ruined from what happens outside of the profession. You take all the greats in any sport. They all had their flaws whether it was gambling, infidelity to even being considered a piece of shit to most people yet we still celebrate their accomplishments within the sport.

F1 is no different. You can hate VER, VET, HAM, etc but their legacy within F1 will forever be celebrated based on their accomplishments and achievements within F1.
This is where the F1/Racing forum brotherhood begins.
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      11-18-2022, 01:39 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
No professional legacy is ever ruined from what happens outside of the profession. You take all the greats in any sport. They all had their flaws whether it was gambling, infidelity to even being considered a piece of shit to most people yet we still celebrate their accomplishments within the sport.

F1 is no different. You can hate VER, VET, HAM, etc but their legacy within F1 will forever be celebrated based on their accomplishments and achievements within F1.
Well OJ, there are exceptions.
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      11-18-2022, 01:43 PM   #515
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Well OJ, there are exceptions.
I mean - the first running back to rush for 2k+























That's pretty legit





















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      11-18-2022, 01:44 PM   #516
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I mean - the first running back to rush for 2k+























That's pretty legit





















And possibly the cops, trial………….
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      11-18-2022, 01:47 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
And possibly the cops, trial………….
Ray Rice is a better one.
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      11-18-2022, 01:59 PM   #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
No professional legacy is ever ruined from what happens outside of the profession. You take all the greats in any sport. They all had their flaws whether it was gambling, infidelity to even being considered a piece of shit to most people yet we still celebrate their accomplishments within the sport.

F1 is no different. You can hate VER, VET, HAM, etc but their legacy within F1 will forever be celebrated based on their accomplishments and achievements within F1.
Well OJ, there are exceptions.
All football fans still celebrate OJ and his on field accomplishments. He is and will always be considered as an all-time great at his position. The trial has not affected how I look at him as a RB/HB.
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      11-18-2022, 02:21 PM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
Ray Rice is a better one.
Race incident ? => https://www.facebook.com/10001349115...13154492079925
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      11-18-2022, 02:32 PM   #520
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minn19 3798j

Not trying to change your opinions here but good article.

‘Zero compromise’ Verstappen isn’t understood by social media critics - MPH

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...ia-critics-mph
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      11-18-2022, 04:44 PM   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
minn19 3798j

Not trying to change your opinions here but good article.

‘Zero compromise’ Verstappen isn’t understood by social media critics - MPH

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...ia-critics-mph
That is very interesting and does make sense in a lot of ways.
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      11-18-2022, 07:54 PM   #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Artemis, you seem like a very nice person. But it’s very clear to many of us here that you have chosen sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
The forum is a private entity and they choose to moderate this behavior because most people would stop posting here if they were being roasted and verbally abused non-stop. Doesn't matter how thick your skin is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB1 View Post
Agree with the sentiment the place is very once sided. He is at least trying to do something and we all evolve so I live in hope. Banter is good, ganging up one side against another, as a mod on another form that should NOT be allowed. But this isn’t my forum so I have to live by their rules, this is a great car forum, it could be so much better with a well regulated Motorsport forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Most of the non Max fans have been ran out of here for this reason and a few others. There are only a few of us stubborn ones that still hang on from time to time.
Or they use that as an excuse.
I've only seen Artemis intervene on certain parameters/keywords that are clearly against the rules.
Besides he's not the only mod on this forum. I'm sure the modteam has some kind of internal consultation with eachother from time to time.
The time I've seen him intervene are in situations that on most fora would have been killed off way sooner with way more bans etc. This is one of the least moderated forums I frequent.
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I actually agree with some of what you have said here and FWIW, I don’t completely blame him. What is hard though is when he enters the side of an argument and then doesn’t like what the other side says and shuts down discussion by deleting posts and publicly warning people in here. It’s pretty clear both sides get out of line quite often but the enforcement is definitely one sided. Maybe more has been done behind the scenes, many have complained about specific things for years and it still goes on and on.
Maybe a few have used it as an excuse, but the majority have left because it is relentless in here with the Max fanboys. People get tired of constantly getting jumped/ganged up on and move on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
I think the narrative that Artemis moderates "one-sidedly" is silly.
I've been warned by him plenty and he intervenes when a certain fanbase immediately starts involving race - as they typically do.
He's a Max fan and when he defends him, he responds in a super detailed and non-aggressive way with sources. It's just whenever LH44 is involved it immediately turns into some racism/woke discussion and I'm 100% confident that the more outspoken Max fans here, including me, aren't racist AT ALL.
I like a bunch of the guys on here who aren't Max fans but it always has to escalate to something ridiculous. It's the Max era, he's going to be on the highlight reel on anything F1 related. It's okay for someone to debate/comment on all this stuff without feeling like they aren't welcome.
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
1- It's useless to say that I'm 100% MAX fan till I die .
2- I've been warned via PM's by the Belgian moderator Artemis .
3- Artemis is doing a great job at this forum .
Let's recap the situation:
  • what this place is: a worldwide BMW enthusiasts car forum with easy and free access (no premium/fremium, no eligibility restrictions) and freedom of speech, featuring a basic set of reasonable house rules, enforced by moderators, serving the purpose to make this forum an appropriate place to openly exchange news, info, views, ideas, tips & tricks, questions, etc.;
  • what this place ain't: a science board, a governmental institution, a court of law, an educational institution, a company's board of directors, a big tech company complaints department, a political party convention, a church, FIA, etc.;
  • what this place ain't supposed to become: a group therapy sessions room for handling querulant delusion / PTED (Posttraumatic Embitterment Disorder), eventually triggered by 2021 Formula 1 season events; if affected, feel free to seek professional help for treating any such clinical disorder.
Some nutrimentum spiritus for y'all:

With so many people around, conflicting views and attitudes are inevitable. As long as the house rules are observed, the countless trains of thought can freely chug around over here. Difference in views is not supposed to be a source of concern for penalties, if, in all reasonableness, those views do not violate house rules as regards contents and presentation. All non-abusive forum members deserve equal treatment, no matter who and what they are and do in real life - they all got my unconditional respect.

Furthermore, in my view it is not inappropriate for moderators of this car enthusiasts forum to actively participate in discussions, express personal opinions, share their knowledge about topics (sometimes referencing info and materials deemed relevant for the discussion, sometimes pointing out a different side of the story, etc.). No game, contest, race or dispute. No prizes, titles or cause of action to win. Freedom of speech. Let's remain open-minded and agree to disagree in a civil way. No personal vendettas.

Speaking for myself: 100% benevolent moderatorship since many years, always free of charge. English ain't my native language (third language of five), but I sufficiently master the language to understand the message and most of the embedded metadata in your countless posts I read or am requested to look into. Years ago I was asked to become a moderator over here based on my contributions noticed by admins. Not asking to be thanked for moderating - just some basic respect for the fact that someone cares, will do. Also this should manage expectations to a more realistic level.

All those who challenge me in a non-abusive way (and that may even be harsh and abrasive - I can stand the heat of the kitchen): I usually cut you all some slack. Not because I agree with everything you comment, but because I am open-minded and considerate about imposing (proportional) penalties. The 'Let them debate'/'Let's debate' approach (alike the 'Let them race'/'Let's race' approach): if IMHO you did not violate any house rule, I see strictly no reason to take action against you, regardless whether personally I may totally disagree with the point of view you expressed regarding some aspect. But do not make the mistake to take for granted that adopting an indulgent approach implies that I will not come after you if your behavior becomes abusive. I trust that you all understand that distinction too. I am not supposed to stay put. Piece of advice: becoming ad hominem with me (to be distinguished from disagreeing with me in a non-abusive way) and ignoring to heed my clear warnings to refrain from adopting inappropriate behavior, will be detrimental for your future stay at Bimmerpost. If you'd become a nuisance for the forum, you risk to be escorted to the exit over here, either for some temporary or permanent 'vacation time' (banning a forum member for life, takes only ± 10 seconds and a couple of mouse-clicks). The choice is yours. This ain't no arrogance, egotism, hubris or abuse of power - this is use of moderator powers with common sense in the best interests of the forum. Feel free to dislike me and to disagree with views that I express (and usually also explain) - but you shall respect me and my integrity if you want to stay around on this forum.

Indulgence and ultimate chances: upon express request I already lobbied with admins to exceptionally 'bring back from the dead' forum members (who reached out to me with a plea and solemn promises to behave) who had been banned by other moderators or admins. But, unfortunately, it turned out that most of all ressurected ones caused their own demise again by subsequently sliding back into old bad habits, often in a momentary lapse of reason, followed by getting banned again by moderators or admins. Also, already many times I protected forum members against attacks, standing up for them and taking appropriate action against attackers. I will continue to do the same for you.

Without moderators and admins, forums like this one would quickly become a dystopian, hostile environment. A forum continuously expands and moderators (can) only read a fraction of the posts when spending time on the forum. Unrealistic to think that moderators and admins read and analyse every single post - we don't, the quantity of posts is massive. But each of you can help bringing posts to our attention deemed to violate house rules.

This is a car enthusiasts forum featuring moderators spending time to genuinely try to properly moderate sections of this vast place - no professional occupation. If you think that you can do better, feel free to apply for moderator or create your own car enthusiasts forum. Lots of stuff is getting subscription-based nowadays. Well, except for board sponsors who promote their goods and services, none of you is required to pay a cent to lurk or participate over here. As a consequence there is no filter in admitting people, good or bad. And unlike big tech platforms, you are not constantly spammed by publicity over here. Virtually on a daily basis, moderators nuke lots of spam trying to infest this forum (many SEO spam injection attacks lately - when caught, spammers are immediately banned for life). Brief, I for one can tell you that a lot is done in the background to keep this place in good shape while you are not required to pay or do anything, except for behaving in a non-abusive way.

The vast majority of forum members over here are definitely capable to respectfully participate in conversations. But, inevitably, also forum members exist who have unrealistic expectations, or who are hyper-sensitive for views that do not comply with theirs ("personal attack!", "insult!", etc.), or who have a tendency to politicize and viciously polarize discussions blaming without merit, or who struggle to handle points of fact, or who display toxic behavior, etc. As a mirror of society: all kinds of people, a plethora of personalities, numerous points of view. And about most of them you don't know who they are in real life, what state of mind they got and what possible struggles or challenges they are going through. It already happened that I reached out to forum members with genuine words of support after reading between the lines that they were struggling with very dark thoughts.

In general, also on forums like this one, the tone gradually changed over time. To some extent the demographic changed - people leave, people move on, people come. Views sometimes get more polarizing. Discussions sometimes spin out of control either as a result of personal attacks by some, or as a result of criticism perceived by some as personal attacks. Try to imagine how those very conversations would (d)evolve when folks were sitting face-to-face in a bar, rather than fuming (c.q. trolling) behind their keyboards and monitors.

Over here in the Motorsport section (which I started to moderate only since Spring 2022 - added to moderatorship of a couple of other forum sections) several forum members appear indeed to be very passionate about their favorite driver and team. Lots of polarizing views, lots of sensibilities. Several comments got/get moderated, sub-surface action was/is regularly taken against abuse. It is not because you no longer see deleted or edited posts, that interventions have never happened. And it is not because I don't disclose of having 'had a word' with forum members via private messages, that those contacts never happened. I am aware that some of you are also in contact in social media groups outside Bimmerpost, but you won't find me there.

All non-abusive enthusiasts are fully entitled to interact: feel free to post your comments, expressing likely different views in a civilized way. You can report posts - even mine - deemed to violate Bimmerpost forum rules (warning triangle icon next to a post). Personally I lack the time to address the dozens of daily complaints reported across many forum sections - other moderators normally take care of this. Gross misconduct is normally swiftly addressed. Use the reporting feature when deemed appropriate (but don't be trigger happy regarding reasonably acceptable comments). See the first paragraph of the section "Post Reporting and Account Rules" (forum rules): see here.

If you want me to personally look into a specific post in this forum section that, according to you, violates Bimmerpost house rules, feel free to send me a message (but also here: don't be trigger happy regarding reasonably acceptable comments).

During the COVID-19 lockdown, the 'Politics & Religion' forum section of Bimmerpost became quite a toxic cesspool. Many went 'no holds barred'. The whole forum section got taken offline, for all the right reasons (see here). If you truly care about this Motorsport forum section, you don't want it to be removed too in the foreseeable future. By behaving in a respectful way, making efforts to listen to and take into account different views, you can contribute to preserving this forum section.

Peace out.

-A-

P.S.: Reminder:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Based on how interactions in many forums (d)evolved since the 2020 pandemic, here's my fairly simple request: also over here, give your level best to keep conversations civilized.

Quit the bickering, venomization, defenestration and the like. Avoid getting baited to pull the "cl" out of "class act". Pay some respect.

IMHO also in the bigger scheme of things, it's the right thing to do.

And if truly toxic by nature: being kind over here may get you an antidote and loads of moral reputation points.

Excerpts from the Bimmerpost house rules:
"1) Respect. By far the most important rule here. Through the generations of BMW, enthusiasts have come together for the love of the car and the community. So the basic rules of real life apply here, show each other respect and you will get respect as well. Don't bash someone else here because you feel like it. Derogatory or insulting remarks will not be tolerated. This applies to all corners of the site - including posts, profile visitor messages, and thread tags."

"3) Disagree, don't attack. Disagree on topics, but try to leave it at that. Just because you don't like someone's opinion on the car's engine, doesn't mean you should call him and his mother all sorts of names. Disagreements are awesome, and you should call someone on something you don't agree with, but don't go out of your way to insult and flame someone. Please consider if you would say to someone's face the same thing you are posting."
Excerpt from the Bimmerpost Terms of Service:
"Without limiting the foregoing, the following behaviors are strictly prohibited:
  • Strong, vulgar, obscene or otherwise harmful language,
  • Racially, ethnically or otherwise, objectionable language,
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  • Online vandalism,
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  • Actions that are hurtful to minors,
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  • Posting, uploading, emailing or otherwise transmitting any material that contains any malicious computer code, or reverse engineering or hacking any materials on the Site."
Excerpt from the Bimmerpost Posting Rules - Forum Rules:
"By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws. You agree not to make posts which are in violation of the forum rules."
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About the former 'Politics & Religion' section:
  • a man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way (Mark Twain);
  • anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured (Seneca).
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      11-19-2022, 08:46 AM   #523
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      11-20-2022, 11:26 AM   #524
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Veeery difficult to prove IF it was deliberate.
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