Red Light: TICKET!!!! WTD????

[Zeroday]

Originally Posted by RonPaul4Prez

This is the way many attorneys who simply take your money to plea you handle a case. Personally, if I felt that I was innocent of what I was charged with, I wouldn't just bend over for the government.

Congratulations. You will be a very noble loser.

[RonPaul4Prez]

Originally Posted by Zeroday

WRONG! Lawyers in traffic court only piss off judges and cops. Unless it's a DUI, leave Johnny Cochran at home.

Ummm...Yeaaaahhhhhh. Sounds like you skimped on a lawyer in the past and got exactly what you paid for. As far as the Ron Paul remark, I won't debate poltitics with you here. I'll save you the embarrassment.

[Zeroday]

Originally Posted by RonPaul4Prez

Ummm...Yeaaaahhhhhh. Sounds like you skimped on a lawyer in the past and got exactly what you paid for. As far as the Ron Paul remark, I won't debate poltitics with you here. I'll save you the embarrassment.

I'm trying to save this guy from getting a potentially costly ticket from both a fine AND an insurance perspective. Your feel good 'pie in the sky' strategies sound great and all but you're just gonna cost this him money if he takes your advice.

As for Ron Paul, LMFAO. He's a lock for president. really, a lock. they should rename your user id to 'pie in the sky'

[RonPaul4Prez]

Originally Posted by Zeroday

I'm trying to save this guy from getting a potentially costly ticket from both a fine AND an insurance perspective. Your feel good 'pie in the sky' strategies sound great and all but you're just gonna cost this him money if he takes your advice.

As for Ron Paul, LMFAO. He's a lock for president. really, a lock. they should rename your user id to 'pie in the sky'

You can't guarantee that either the officer, the prosecution, or the judge at the municipal level will be flexible. And in the grand scheme of things, this is a very minor offense. But all the things I have suggested do not take lot of time and effort for an attorney. All I'm suggesting is that the OP consult with one and see if it is worthwhile for him.

And while this is you are more than welcome to jump on the bandwagon and vote for whomever you think is a lock for the election. This is what I think about being a conformist

[MUNIK-FL]

Originally Posted by doc1911

You could try to video and "recreate" the scene. It might help but you run the risk of getting another ticket and it would be hard to do. If the cop was anywhere behind you his on-dash camera might have it on tape as well.
If you sped up to make the light you will loose. If you maintained speed you have a chance. Tell the judge you where soooooo distracted by the 2 other cars that make illegal U-turns that you did not see the light turn yellow

DO NOT SAY YOU WERE DISTRACTED!!! You are supposed to pay attention while driving, so being distracted would kill your credibility! I would mention that you noticed the other two cars U-Turning illegally, but don't complain that they did not get ticketed. You won't increase your chances of winning by saying, "But they didn't get a ticket." It makes you sound childish and more importantly guilty.

Originally Posted by bigslickak

Sorry to be that guy, but dude, you rolled the dice and you lost. You had time to stop, you should know that it can be tricky on a left turn especially because you are going slower. It is going to be damn hard to prove that your car was 10 feet ahead into the intersection than back behind the line.

That being said, you could measure the duration of the yellow cycle on that particular light and compare it to the state standards and see if it is out of range. People have used that defense on red-light camera cases and they have found the yellow cycles to be too short for the speed and intersection.

In most places, once you have crossed the stop bar (the first white line you come to in an intersection - before the crosswalk), you are considered IN THE INTERSECTION and therefore have the right to proceed through it. Cross traffic, who will then receive a green light, may only proceed after the intersection is clear. Traffic light times are calculated based on the 80th percentile car and driver (i.e. a 1980's Buick with worn tires and Grandma behind the wheel). So the length of a yellow light is based on the posted speed limit because it takes that shitty car a long time to stop. (All red conditions are also based on this philosophy because it takes a 20' long car a certain amount of time to clear a certain width intersection at a certain speed)

Any way, yellow time is calculated as follows:


Yellow Time = t + (S*1.467) / (2*a - 64.4*g)

Where:
t = reaction/perception time, usually 1.0s
S = posted speed limit in MPH
a = the deceleration rate in feet per second, typically taken as 10 f/s^2
g = approach grade, percent of grade divided by 100 (add for up-grade and subtract for downgrade).

Lets say the road you were traveling on was flat (not uphill or downhill) and was posted at 45MPH.

Therefore yellow time should have been:

Yellow Time = 1.0s + (45MPH*1.467) / (2*10ft/s^2 - 64.4*0) = 4.3s which would be rounded up for safety to 4.5 to 5.0 seconds.

Verify that this formula is acceptable in the governing municipality by calling a local traffic engineering firm. If it is, I would go out with a stop watch and video tape the length of the yellow light. If it does not meet the minimum requirements (4.3 would be the minimum) then tell the judge you approached the intersection with caution, as two drivers made illegal U-Turns in front of you. You slowed to make a safe, legal left turn and entered the intersection knowing that there is no way your car could physically stop before the 4.5 seconds had elapsed. Unfortunately, the light changed to red at the same instant you entered the intersection and after further investigation, the reason is because you were not given the proper amount of time needed to stop safely before the red light appeared.

Also, when you get the cop's notes, find out if he was in a position to clearly see the red light and the position of your car at that moment. By way of geometry, you may be able to prove that he did not have the line of sight required to make that judgement call.

I have a feeling this could be the case as I got pulled over for being 19 on a Friday night NUMEROUS times for ERRONEOUS reasons.

[MUNIK-FL]

Originally Posted by Zeroday

I'm trying to save this guy from getting a potentially costly ticket from both a fine AND an insurance perspective. Your feel good 'pie in the sky' strategies sound great and all but you're just gonna cost this him money if he takes your advice.

As for Ron Paul, LMFAO. He's a lock for president. really, a lock. they should rename your user id to 'pie in the sky'

WOW, Zeroday, you sure are opinionated! Dont be gay, your opinion has been heard so stop taking shot at others because you don't like their opinions. let the OP decide what he thinks is best by the merit of the posts, not by your LAME "pie in the sky" remark.

[Zeroday]

Originally Posted by Gixxer335iCoupe

WOW, Zeroday, you sure are opinionated! Dont be gay, your opinion has been heard so stop taking shot at others because you don't like their opinions. let the OP decide what he thinks is best by the merit of the posts, not by your LAME "pie in the sky" remark.

What's gay is calling me out when I wasn't even talking to you, scrotum breath. I offered several suggestions to the OP; of course its up to him to decide what to do captain obvious! Nice Hypocritical post though, taking two shots at me while telling me not to take shots at people. Brilliant! Go on a diet fatty.

[Chowbow]

Wow, this turned stupid instantly.

[achien]

[MUNIK-FL]

Originally Posted by Zeroday

What's gay is calling me out when I wasn't even talking to you, scrotum breath. I offered several suggestions to the OP; of course its up to him to decide what to do captain obvious! Nice Hypocritical post though, taking two shots at me while telling me not to take shots at people. Brilliant! Go on a diet fatty.

You are 33 years old?!?!?

[Maestro]

These tickets are beatable

http://helpigotaticket.com/

you simply go to court asked that you confront your accuser which is a camera and you asked for an automatic dismissal due to lack of a witness, IF they attempt to have someone come in who review the tape, and if they try to testify you object and say hearsay and that person lack personal knowledge therefore anything they say is inadmissible.

Everything you need to know about fighting a red light camera ticket in CA

http://helpigotaticket.com/stra/redlight.html

BTW, Gixxer335iCoupe was on the right track

Here is some useful reading, 3/4 the way down the article

http://biz.yahoo.com/brn/070330/2153....v=1&printer=1

Here is the rules on Red Lights in CA

Circular Yellow or Yellow Arrow

21452. (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately thereafter.

(b) A pedestrian facing a steady circular yellow or a yellow arrow signal, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as provided in Section 21456, is, by that signal, warned that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway and shall not enter the roadway.

Circular Red or Red Arrow

21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

(b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.

(c) A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.

(d) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as provided in Section 21456, a pedestrian facing a steady circular red or red arrow signal shall not enter the roadway.

Here are all the rules

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd11c2a3.htm

More information about Red Light Cameras in CA

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/curriculum/unit4text.pdf

From the CA Driver Handbook (CDH) and the only place that say on yellow not to enter the intersection, but not in the vehicle code.

At intersections controlled by signals, do not enter the intersection
on a green light until all vehicles and pedestrians are out of the
intersection. You should not enter an intersection on a red light,
except when making a permitted left or right turn. CDH: 15

08.I.03(7) You should not enter an intersection on a yellow light (solid or
arrow), unless it is unsafe for you to stop. If you can't stop safely,
look out for vehicles that may enter the intersection when the light
changes. CDH: p. 14-15

Some more useful information

Jim Lisnner stated that he maintains a website called Highway Robbery. He urged the Committee to reopen this item and place it under the action items. The MUTCD recommends 3 to 6 seconds for the yellow timing. He stated that California should take the lead and adopt a minimum yellow timing based on the posted speed limit plus 10 mph or speed limit established rounded based on the upper 5 mph increment to the 85 th percentile speed. He further suggested having a minimum of 4 seconds for the left turns movement. He stated that by increasing a half-second yellow timing, it cuts down more than half of the violations. He gave examples from the City of Mesa in Arizona and the City of San Diego in California, where a slight increase in the yellow timing reduced the violation by more than half. He suggested for the reopening of the item.

Chad Dornsife stated that the U.S. law says a traffic engineer must go out and observe the field conditions for the adjustment of timing for a signalized intersection. He added that some cities are making revenues from the red light cameras. He stated that California should revise the policy to require a traffic engineer to go out in the field, observe the operation of the signalized intersection and make adjustments to the timing based on the field conditions

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/si.../Min022306.pdf

04-B Yellow Change Intervals Timing for the Signals
Chairman Fisher asked Committee Member Hamid Bahadori to address the agenda item of yellow change interval timing for signals. Hamid Bahadori noted that the yellow change interval timing issue needs immediate attention and clear policy direction from the CTCDC, especially in light of the increasing number of automated red-light cameras being used to enforce red light violations at signalized intersections. Agencies are using different methodologies to determine the yellow timing. Since there is no definition for the approach speed in the Traffic Manual, or now in the California Supplement, the issue is what is the approach speed. Is it a posted speed limit or it is an 85-percentile speed? When a motorist receives a citation, the citation does not hold up in the court because approach speed has not been defined. The red light cameras are issuing tickets on a differential of one tenth of a second. People are challenging red light violations based on the lack of definition of approach speed. The law can be defended if there is a definition for the approach speed and minimum yellow timing for the left turn movements. Hamid referred to
the State of Arizona DOT. They have a more detailed policy in regards to yellow timing for the through movement and for left turn movements. Hamid stated that the following two questions need to be addressed:

• Clarification on what is the approach speed.
• Should the same speed be used for all movements, if not, then does policy need to be established for the left turns approach?

The following Section of the California Vehicle Code (CVC) requires yellow timing at signalized intersections where such automated systems are used, to be established according to the Traffic Manual (now the California Supplement).

21455.7. (a) At an intersection at which there is an automated enforcement system in operation, the minimum yellow light change interval shall be established in accordance with the Traffic Manual of the Department of Transportation.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/si.../Min081204.pdf

Here is the policy change from the above discussion that went into effect in 2005

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/si...licy/05-01.pdf

That clearly states what the yellow interval should be.

I think with all this information anyone can beat a photo red light ticket in CA.

[Chowbow]

Don't think this was a camera ticket...

[Zeroday]

Originally Posted by Gixxer335iCoupe

You are 33 years old?!?!?

And you look about 40...are we still continuing with this romper room exercise that you started? Let it go and stop e-stalking me...

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Chowbow

Don't think this was a camera ticket...

Your correct, I am not sure how I picked up the camera part, but the other information about the stop lines are valid.

[MUNIK-FL]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Your correct, I am not sure how I picked up the camera part, but the other information about the stop lines are valid.

GREAT INFO!

The last link is exactly what I was talking about and even gives a minimum yellow time of 4.3 seconds at 45 MPH.

I'd like to see similar tutorials with the Florida Statutes.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Gixxer335iCoupe

GREAT INFO!

The last link is exactly what I was talking about and even gives a minimum yellow time of 4.3 seconds at 45 MPH.

I'd like to see similar tutorials with the Florida Statutes.

Florida follows the MUTCD, all states follow it as such they are required to have similar calculations, remember, these calculations are dependent on how big the intersection is.

The problem with using this a defense the court system is too stupid to understand any of this, plus they are not interested in having you walk them threw this.

[Maestro]

Here is FL information

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/ind...EChapter%20316

I did not search the specifics, but you can find them. You might have to look at FL DOT for the engineering survey stuff like CalTrans has above

[Artz 330]

Originally Posted by RonPaul4Prez

A witness is a witness. They can testify. What you mentioned goes to bias and affects credibility. Totally admissible.

no, they can not. It has to be a third party as mentioned and can not have ties to the person that commited the violation. (Because everyone knows someone that has ties to you will say anything you tell them)

[cm3rc]

I just got one too. Hasty came in the mail yet

[OhhaiAlex]

Originally Posted by achien

Not Guilty, and try to bring your friends to the court room. If this is not possible, please have them write a statement and sign on it.

+1

if you take it to court, most of the time officers dont show up.

[RonPaul4Prez]

Originally Posted by Artz 330

no, they can not. It has to be a third party as mentioned and can not have ties to the person that commited the violation. (Because everyone knows someone that has ties to you will say anything you tell them)

A third party is anyone not a party to the case (the state or the defendant). That includes his friends. That doesn't matter anyway; the op (defendant) is not a third party and can testify if he wants. Everything I said previously is accurate.

Get back to me after you go to law school, and if you did go to law school, you should have gone to a better one and/or paid attention during evidence.

[MUNIK-FL]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Florida follows the MUTCD, all states follow it as such they are required to have similar calculations, remember, these calculations are dependent on how big the intersection is.

The problem with using this a defense the court system is too stupid to understand any of this, plus they are not interested in having you walk them threw this.

Originally Posted by Maestro

Here is FL information

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/ind...EChapter%20316

I did not search the specifics, but you can find them. You might have to look at FL DOT for the engineering survey stuff like CalTrans has above

I am aware of all that. I just want to see a tutorial (that has all the fill-in-the-blank forms) like the one from California. Sorry for the confusion.

You are probably right about the court not appreciating all that math, but I am sure you could do a calculation and submit it as evidence along with video of the improperly timed light. I have never been to court, so I don't know what the procedure would be on something like that, but forensics take measurements and calculate shit all the time (CSI: Miami for example) and submit as evidence.

RonPaul, any insight on doing something like that?