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      11-05-2018, 09:37 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
You said the plan is clear, how is the money going to be distributed to us?
Here is pretty thorough article by Global News that lays everything out.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4586374/c...-need-to-know/
It makes 0 sense

Plus, I asked you a question about how the money will be distributed. Care to elaborate?
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      11-05-2018, 09:40 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post

Carbon pricing has been in place in BC since 2008 and has been successful.

What exactly has it been successful at doing?




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      11-05-2018, 09:52 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
The provinces should have developed their own program. Carbon pricing has been in place in BC since 2008 and has been successful. Ontario had a cap and trade program but Ford scrapped it and cost the taxpayers 3B to refund companies on carbon credits and eliminated the federal transfer payments. Ford should have worked with the previous plan to make it better.
As I said earlier, Canada has a negative GHG impact on the planet. Ontario cut it's GHG emissions by 22% by eliminating coal fired hydro and replacing it with solar and wind power at enormous cost and driving up the cost of electricity by well over 100% making Ontario the most expensive place to electricity in North America. Why do we need any tax on carbon? Experts continue to say Ontario and Canadas reduction will have zero global impact.

With respect to BC, my understanding is that the rebates are not necessarily given to the tax payer but for example in the form of tax credits for the film industry. So I guess the math may be revenue neutral but the money isn't going back to the consumer. I'm also hearing that the program has actually stopped being revenue neutral.

https://business.financialpost.com/o...ment-cash-grab
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      11-05-2018, 09:52 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
It makes 0 sense

Plus, I asked you a question about how the money will be distributed. Care to elaborate?
How does it make 0 sense?

You will receive a rebate cheque or direct deposit after filing your taxes starting next year.
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      11-05-2018, 09:57 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
How does it make 0 sense?

You will receive a rebate cheque or direct deposit after filing your taxes starting next year.
If it works exactly as the government says it will. History tells us it will not. That and the rebates will not cover the increase in cost to living as a corollary to the tax.
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      11-05-2018, 09:59 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
What exactly has it been successful at doing?




The province has cut income and other taxes to offset the income of the carbon tax to ensure it is revenue neutral which has resulted in the following:

- BC residents have the lowest personal income tax rates in the country.
- BC companies have one one the lowest corporate tax rates in North America.
- Since the tax came in, fuel use in B.C. has dropped by 16 per cent; in the rest of Canada, it's risen by 3 per cent
- B.C.'s GDP has slightly outperformed the rest of Canada's since 2008.
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      11-05-2018, 10:02 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
If it works exactly as the government says it will. History tells us it will not. That and the rebates will not cover the increase in cost to living as a corollary to the tax.
That's the point...if you alter your behaviour to use less carbon producing products you will be ahead.
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      11-05-2018, 10:08 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
It makes 0 sense

Plus, I asked you a question about how the money will be distributed. Care to elaborate?
How does it make 0 sense?

You will receive a rebate cheque or direct deposit after filing your taxes starting next year.
It makes 0 sense because:

1- you charge industries for carbon emissions
2- that charge gets passed on to consumers (so, effectively, no incentive to lower emissions by the industry, cost of living increases)
3- consumers get a rebate (so, no incentive to lower consumption, increased cost of living offset by the rebate you get)
4- the rebate is higher than what you paid throughout the year (how that math works is magic, free money)

Where's the incentive to lower emissions?

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my question: how is the "rationing" of the rebates going to happen?
Meaning: how are they going to determine I get 1,000 dollar rebate, and you get 700 dollars?
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      11-05-2018, 10:09 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
As I said earlier, Canada has a negative GHG impact on the planet. Ontario cut it's GHG emissions by 22% by eliminating coal fired hydro and replacing it with solar and wind power at enormous cost and driving up the cost of electricity by well over 100% making Ontario the most expensive place to electricity in North America. Why do we need any tax on carbon? Experts continue to say Ontario and Canadas reduction will have zero global impact.

With respect to BC, my understanding is that the rebates are not necessarily given to the tax payer but for example in the form of tax credits for the film industry. So I guess the math may be revenue neutral but the money isn't going back to the consumer. I'm also hearing that the program has actually stopped being revenue neutral.

https://business.financialpost.com/o...ment-cash-grab
It may have little to no impact but we (Harper) signed an agreement to meet international targets. We have to do our part and act as a leader to other nations.
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      11-05-2018, 10:09 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
That's the point...if you alter your behaviour to use less carbon producing products you will be ahead.
You have an advantage in that you live in a moderate climate compared to the rest of Canada, I have no choice but to heat my house, the town I live in doesn't have public transit, my wife has to drive to work. We walk to the grocery store and for most of our shopping. How do you suggest I alter my behaviour to use less carbon.

I have now pointed out the increased cost in manufacturing and shipping that will absolutely drive up the cost of all consumer goods and you haven't said a thing about that. This tax will not save me any money, I guarantee it. Wynne's Cap and Trade that you keep talking about drove up the cost of heating my house and fuelling my cars, to the tune of about $10 per fill up on the car. Contrary to what Mr Wynne said would cost the average family about $4 a month.

Sorry, but I haven't read or heard anything that makes me believe that Trudeau is going to do anything that will ever save me money. His track record makes that crystal clear.
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      11-05-2018, 10:11 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
What exactly has it been successful at doing?




The province has cut income and other taxes to offset the income of the carbon tax to ensure it is revenue neutral which has resulted in the following:

- BC residents have the lowest personal income tax rates in the country.
- BC companies have one one the lowest corporate tax rates in North America.
- Since the tax came in, fuel use in B.C. has dropped by 16 per cent; in the rest of Canada, it's risen by 3 per cent
- B.C.'s GDP has slightly outperformed the rest of Canada's since 2008.
The lowest income taxes, maybe.
Is that already factoring in the separate 90 dollar tax they pay per month for health care?
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      11-05-2018, 10:14 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
The lowest income taxes, maybe.
Is that already factoring in the separate 90 dollar tax they pay per month for health care?
You mean like the $80 per month per person "health care supplement" in Ontario that isn't a tax?
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      11-05-2018, 10:14 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
It makes 0 sense because:

1- you charge industries for carbon emissions
2- that charge gets passed on to consumers (so, effectively, no incentive to lower emissions by the industry, cost of living increases)
3- consumers get a rebate (so, no incentive to lower consumption, increased cost of living offset by the rebate you get)
4- the rebate is higher than what you paid throughout the year (how that math works is magic, free money)

Where's the incentive to lower emissions?

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my question: how is the "rationing" of the rebates going to happen?
Meaning: how are they going to determine I get 1,000 dollar rebate, and you get 700 dollars?
The incentive to lower emissions is if consumers change their behaviour and choose alternative sources of energy, those polluting companies will have to adapt to consumers demand.

As for how the rebate is determined I would assume is it all done via statistics....a family of 4 with a certain income will typically have x number of vehicles, live in a typical square foot house, etc. and typically spend $xx in carbon producing products.
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      11-05-2018, 10:15 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
The lowest income taxes, maybe.
Is that already factoring in the separate 90 dollar tax they pay per month for health care?
You mean like the $80 per month per person "health care supplement" in Ontario that isn't a tax?
Ontario has it too? Lol
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      11-05-2018, 10:16 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
It makes 0 sense because:

1- you charge industries for carbon emissions
2- that charge gets passed on to consumers (so, effectively, no incentive to lower emissions by the industry, cost of living increases)
3- consumers get a rebate (so, no incentive to lower consumption, increased cost of living offset by the rebate you get)
4- the rebate is higher than what you paid throughout the year (how that math works is magic, free money)

Where's the incentive to lower emissions?

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my question: how is the "rationing" of the rebates going to happen?
Meaning: how are they going to determine I get 1,000 dollar rebate, and you get 700 dollars?
The incentive to lower emissions is if consumers change their behaviour and choose alternative sources of energy, those polluting companies will have to adapt to consumers demand.

As for how the rebate is determined I would assume is it all done via statistics....a family of 4 with a certain income will typically have x number of vehicles, live in a typical square foot house, etc. and typically spend $xx in carbon producing products.
I see, but how this tax is making people change their behaviours is the piece I'm not following.
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      11-05-2018, 10:19 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Ontario has it too? Lol
McGuinty ran on the promise of no new taxes, and when he got elected immediately brought in the "Health Care Supplement"......lying politicians, this is exactly why I don't trust Trudeau on this.

Like when Chretien and Shelia Copps promised to get rid of the GST if they were elected, in fact Tequila Shelia said she'd resign if they didn't get rid of it. She was forced to resign over the public outrage, ran in the by-election and got reelected by the fools in Hamilton (her family is practically royalty there).
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      11-05-2018, 10:22 AM   #127
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Quote:
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I see, but how this tax is making people change their behaviours is the piece I'm not following.
Lets say your primary source of heat for your home is oil which will be subject to a carbon tax increase. You invest in a cheaper source of green energy like a heat pump. You become less reliant on oil and have more $$ in your pocket in the long run.
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      11-05-2018, 10:24 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
The province has cut income and other taxes to offset the income of the carbon tax to ensure it is revenue neutral which has resulted in the following:

- BC residents have the lowest personal income tax rates in the country.
- BC companies have one one the lowest corporate tax rates in North America.
- Since the tax came in, fuel use in B.C. has dropped by 16 per cent; in the rest of Canada, it's risen by 3 per cent
- B.C.'s GDP has slightly outperformed the rest of Canada's since 2008.


I don't see how any of those items are directly related to an increased tax upon carbon emitters.

Correlation does not imply causation.



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      11-05-2018, 10:25 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
I see, but how this tax is making people change their behaviours is the piece I'm not following.
Lets say your primary source of heat for your home is oil which will be subject to a carbon tax increase. You invest in a cheaper source of green energy like a heat pump. You become less reliant on oil and have more $$ in your pocket in the long run.
If I change my source of heating from oil to a greener alternative, that implies the producers of oil will need to produce less of it, and will pay less carbon tax, with less carbon tax, there's less money to provide me with a rebate.

With my rebate getting lower as I move to the greener alternative, how am I making more money in the long run?
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      11-05-2018, 10:28 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I don't see how any of those items are directly related to an increased tax upon carbon emitters.

Correlation does not imply causation.



They are directly related. By law the carbon tax had to be revenue neutral. In order to achieve this the government had to reduce income taxes, etc to offset the increased the revenue coming in from the carbon tax.
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      11-05-2018, 10:32 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I don't see how any of those items are directly related to an increased tax upon carbon emitters.

Correlation does not imply causation.



They are directly related. By law the carbon tax had to be revenue neutral. In order to achieve this the government had to reduce income taxes, etc to offset the increased the revenue coming in from the carbon tax.
So now you're stating that the purpose of the tax is not to comply with the Paris Agreement, but rather to make the provinces more competitive and better-off economically?

Or, instead of counter-intuitively hindering a country's performance, the carbon taxes assist in its development?

No-brainer!
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      11-05-2018, 10:33 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
If I change my source of heating from oil to a greener alternative, that implies the producers of oil will need to produce less of it, and will pay less carbon tax, with less carbon tax, there's less money to provide me with a rebate.

With my rebate getting lower as I move to the greener alternative, how am I making more money in the long run?
The price per tonne is going up for the carbon emitters over time.

Your rebate is not based on actual consumption...it's all statistics.
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