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      12-18-2018, 02:02 PM   #1
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Abortion...Thoughts and Discussions

Alright - since the spanking thread seemed to do so well, I thought I would initiate another hot topic here in the politics/religion forums that everyone will just love to speak about....

Abortion.

Me personally? I feel there is enough compelling evidence that a baby is truly a living being between 4-8 weeks. As such, in my mind, abortion after this point is tantamount to the murder of a child and should not be legal.

About the only exception I can see to this would be if there was a certifiable and imminent threat to the mother. If it can be medically proven that the mother is extremely likely to die if the child is carried to term, then I can see the argument for an abortion, as one can make the case that the self-supporting life can be chosen over the non self supporting life.

Barring this exception, I cannot see a rationale for abortions of any kind. What are your thoughts?

Links confirming detectable heartbeats and significant brain activity by 4-8 weeks:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...e/art-20045302

https://www.babycenter.com/404_when-...at_10349811.bc
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      12-18-2018, 02:05 PM   #2
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To me this is a question of where/when do the rights of the mother end and the rights of the child/baby/fetus begin. Clearly the mother has full rights up to the moment of conception. Clearly the child has full rights at the moment of birth. Where in between do the rights shift, on what basis, and is that firm or moving (e.g., with medical advances).

So if we want to protect the rights of the child to the maximum extent and in all circumstances, abortion cannot be legal.

If we want to protect the rights of the mother to the maximum extent and in all circumstances, abortion should be legal up to the moment of live birth (natural certainly, Caesarian?).

Neither of these strikes me as the right answer.
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      12-18-2018, 02:05 PM   #3
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Not my body, not my business.
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      12-18-2018, 02:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana Hammock View Post
Not my body, not my business.
Even if it's your kid?
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      12-18-2018, 02:07 PM   #5
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Great post usshelena725
And actually, I'm quite happy that the Politics/Religion section has seen some very good discussion lately.

Now, back to the topic at hand...how about rape?
Should a woman be forced to carry through with a child, even though she conceived against her will?

Asking not because I'm unsure, but because your post only mentions an exception for a medical endangerment of the mother.
Curious whether rape qualifies as another exception in your thinking.
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      12-18-2018, 02:12 PM   #6
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      12-18-2018, 02:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Even if it's your kid?
Maybe since I'm not a parent, I could say this with a straight face. I don't deny that my opinion might change once I have a kid but if the mother of the child is adamant about having an abortion, It's not my place to tell her otherwise. Being a parent is a team effort and I would feel guilty forcing my beliefs onto someone who's supposed to be my partner.
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      12-18-2018, 02:14 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Great post.
And actually, I'm quite happy that the Politics/Religion section has seen some very good discussion lately.

Now, back to the topic at hand...how about rape?
Should a woman be forced to carry through with a child, even though she conceived against her will?

Should be so long as we all keep it civil.

To your question: It's still her child. Irrespective of rape or not, it is still a living human being, is it not? In my mind, it is still a child - so let's look at a different scenario. Assume that a girl was drugged at a party and raped while asleep. A month or two later, she finds that she is pregnant yet decides to have the baby. Once the baby is born, she looks at him/her and says "this is just too traumatic and I cannot look at this child everyday knowing that he/she was born from a rape. As such, I am going to murder the child while he or she is sleeping in the crib.

Wouldn't society say that she is a monster and charge her with murder? Rightly so, yes? What makes it different if the baby is only 8 weeks old in the womb versus 8 weeks old out of the womb?

Currently, the general law is abortion up to 24 weeks is legal most reasons, yet babies have been born and survived at 21 weeks. How is this okay?
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      12-18-2018, 02:15 PM   #9
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This is going to get rough fast. Maybe not considering most of the posters on here are men. Tuned in.

Last edited by Now_Rudi; 12-19-2018 at 07:39 AM..
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      12-18-2018, 02:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana Hammock View Post
Maybe since I'm not a parent, I could say this with a straight face. I don't deny that my opinion might change once I have a kid but if the mother of the child is adamant about having an abortion, It's not my place to tell her otherwise. Being a parent is a team effort and I would feel guilty forcing my beliefs onto someone who's supposed to be my partner.

Fair. How about we push the envelope a little bit. Let's say she decided she wanted an abortion at 6 months? That is perfectly legal in California. Here is a link to a baby born at 6mos.

WARNING: May be graphic in the opinion of some viewers:

https://babyccinokids.com/wp-content...10/silke-2.jpg



Would you still be okay then? And if that is fine - what about after the child was born. Are you able to see the difference between the child in the link and a newborn baby?

Not trying to criticize, just asking for honest opinions.


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This is going to get rough fast. Maybe not consider most of the posters on here are men. Tuned in.
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      12-18-2018, 02:26 PM   #11
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My youngest daughter was a 26 week baby weighing 2lbs. 3 oz. She had to stay in the hospital for almost 3 month after she was born, until she reached 5 lbs. Even then, she went back to the hospital numerous times because she would just forget to breathe and turn blue. Today, she is 42 years old and you would never know about the start that she had.

I am very much against abortion, with the exception of safety of the mother. I believe that life begins at conception and terminating it is murder.

Our society tries to have it both ways. Abortion is legal, yet someone who kills a pregnant woman is charged with the death of her fetus as well.
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      12-18-2018, 02:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post

Our society tries to have it both ways. Abortion is legal, yet someone who kills a pregnant woman is charged with the death of her fetus as well.
Yes! This one boggles my mind. The funny thing is that the law is in place where abortion is pretty liberal, such as California. I often wonder how someone can argue for increased penalties for the murder of a pregnant woman and then go to the next courtroom and say that abortion is no big deal.

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      12-18-2018, 02:32 PM   #13
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If you don't like them, don't get one.


Edit - also, if abortion = murder, should miscarriages be investigated as involuntary manslaughter?
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      12-18-2018, 02:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Fair. How about we push the envelope a little bit. Let's say she decided she wanted an abortion at 6 months? That is perfectly legal in California. Here is a link to a baby born at 6mos.

WARNING: May be graphic in the opinion of some viewers:

https://babyccinokids.com/wp-content...10/silke-2.jpg



Would you still be okay then? And if that is fine - what about after the child was born. Are you able to see the difference between the child in the link and a newborn baby?

Not trying to criticize, just asking for honest opinions.




I'm an optimist. I have faith.
We have a thing here in California where an individual is allowed to legally surrender a baby so killing a newborn is just a disgusting thing to do and they are rightfully punished for doing so. If it is possible to safely deliver the baby where neither the mother or the newborn is in danger, why abort when the option to surrender the baby is available?
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      12-18-2018, 02:38 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
If you don't like them, don't get one.


Edit - also, if abortion = murder, should miscarriages be investigated as involuntary manslaughter?


Well - I don't like stabbed in the face with a hatchet, but that doesn't mean I think it is fine for others to get stabbed in the face. Same could be said here. If the baby has a beating heart and brain activity, then should someone be allowed to kill it? Doesn't really matter if you have any relationship to the situation or not.

If it is not okay to kill a 2 year old child, then why would it be okay to kill a baby that can be born and survive?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana Hammock View Post
We have a thing here in California where an individual is allowed to legally surrender a baby so killing a newborn is just a disgusting thing to do and they are rightfully punished for doing so. If it is possible to safely deliver the baby where neither the mother or the newborn is in danger, why abort when the option to surrender the baby is available?
Very good points and I agree.
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      12-18-2018, 02:38 PM   #16
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And I think most reasonable people would agree late term abortions at the decision of the mother (for no medical reason what so ever) are rare outliers that should be illegal. The large, overwhelming amount of abortions occur <13 weeks....something like 95%.
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      12-18-2018, 02:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Should be so long as we all keep it civil.

To your question: It's still her child. Irrespective of rape or not, it is still a living human being, is it not? In my mind, it is still a child - so let's look at a different scenario. Assume that a girl was drugged at a party and raped while asleep. A month or two later, she finds that she is pregnant yet decides to have the baby. Once the baby is born, she looks at him/her and says "this is just too traumatic and I cannot look at this child everyday knowing that he/she was born from a rape. As such, I am going to murder the child while he or she is sleeping in the crib.

Wouldn't society say that she is a monster and charge her with murder? Rightly so, yes? What makes it different if the baby is only 8 weeks old in the womb versus 8 weeks old out of the womb?

Currently, the general law is abortion up to 24 weeks is legal most reasons, yet babies have been born and survived at 21 weeks. How is this okay?
Actually, 2000cs said it best when it comes to the abortion debate.

The problem really is that society wants to protect rights of individuals but in these circumstances it's impossible to protect both (woman and child).

Based on that understanding, your perspective comes from that of protecting the life/rights of the child. There's a point to be made that a murder of a pregnant woman serves as a double-whammy in court, so it's not like there isn't a judicial precedent either for protecting the lives of unborn children.

That being said, the reason I mention rape into this equation, is because rape, then, adds a complication that makes it no longer solely about the life of the child and the selfishness or carelessness of a woman.

So, to the opposite perspective, one would naturally ask, would be to ask why should a woman be penalized (i.e., bear the consequences) for the actions of her assailant?
What about her rights as a woman?
We as men will never be able to fully relate to the physical pain of pregnancy, hormonal changes, and suffering that a mother must endure for months at end just to bring a life into this world, even as fathers.
To a couple (i.e., father and mother) in a "normal" situation, this stress is eustress, where the result is generally worth it, and there is a psychological and biological connection to this child. It's family in one word and the entire support system of your friends and family and the optimism associated with it, all helps.

To a woman who was drugged and sexually assaulted, it's a different story.
Often times, rape is a socially stigmatized topic. Nobody likes to be reminded of it, including friends and family, which means this woman likely has to endure all of this on her own.
All the complications and risks that comes with pregnancy is bestowed upon this woman, as well as other consequences that she didn't ask her (i.e., putting her career on hold, etc.)
In short, it's all involuntary, against her will. It's very easy to say that she is simply the vessel for which the child arrives on this earth, but it's a very simpleton way of analysis.

I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but I do think abortion cases that involve rape should not be brushed under the rug or taken lightly with respect to the rights of the woman.
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      12-18-2018, 02:41 PM   #18
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I love these threads. I'll restate my opinions later...although we have had an abortion thread already.

But I do love these threads all the same.
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      12-18-2018, 02:44 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
And I think most reasonable people would agree late term abortions at the decision of the mother (for no medical reason what so ever) are rare outliers that should be illegal. The large, overwhelming amount of abortions occur <13 weeks....something like 95%.

I agree, so let's put that to the test then. At 13 weeks pregnant, you’ve grown a fetus that has vocal cords, teeth, and even fingerprints. A 13-week ultrasound could detect baby’s gender. He may even be sucking his thumb. His head makes up a third of his body length. This week, the part of his brain responsible for complex thoughts, such as problem-solving and memory, starts to form.

Knowing all this - do you feel that an abortion would not be considered 'causing the death of a human'? If not, why not?
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      12-18-2018, 02:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Actually, 2000cs said it best when it comes to the abortion debate.

The problem really is that society wants to protect rights of individuals but in these circumstances it's impossible to protect both (woman and child).

Based on that understanding, your perspective comes from that of protecting the life/rights of the child. There's a point to be made that a murder of a pregnant woman serves as a double-whammy in court, so it's not like there isn't a judicial precedent either for protecting the lives of unborn children.

That being said, the reason I mention rape into this equation, is because rape, then, adds a complication that makes it no longer solely about the life of the child and the selfishness or carelessness of a woman.

So, to the opposite perspective, one would naturally ask, would be to ask why should a woman be penalized (i.e., bear the consequences) for the actions of her assailant?
What about her rights as a woman?
We as men will never be able to fully relate to the physical pain of pregnancy, hormonal changes, and suffering that a mother must endure for months at end just to bring a life into this world, even as fathers.
To a couple (i.e., father and mother) in a "normal" situation, this stress is eustress, where the result is generally worth it, and there is a psychological and biological connection to this child. It's family in one word and the entire support system of your friends and family and the optimism associated with it, all helps.

To a woman who was drugged and sexually assaulted, it's a different story.
Often times, rape is a socially stigmatized topic. Nobody likes to be reminded of it, including friends and family, which means this woman likely has to endure all of this on her own.
All the complications and risks that comes with pregnancy is bestowed upon this woman, as well as other consequences that she didn't ask her (i.e., putting her career on hold, etc.)
In short, it's all involuntary, against her will. It's very easy to say that she is simply the vessel for which the child arrives on this earth, but it's a very simpleton way of analysis.

I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but I do think abortion cases that involve rape should not be brushed under the rug or taken lightly with respect to the rights of the woman.

Very well thought out and strong argument. I need to get some work done, so my counter point will be brief.

I ask - let's assume that the woman (21 years old) was raped, and then decided that it was too traumatic to bear and wanted to die. Would she be allowed to go into a hospital and have a physician put her to death at her request? No - that would be illegal. Instead, she would be directed to undergo counseling, take anti-depressant medications, etc.

Why then, under your scenario, should she be allowed to terminate the life of the child who had no say in this matter when she would never be allowed to terminate her own life? Why is a physician allowed to terminate the life of the child but not terminate the life of the mother at her request?
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      12-18-2018, 02:50 PM   #21
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      12-18-2018, 02:52 PM   #22
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Its morally wrong at any point. Its financially and politically advantageous for various groups to say otherwise.
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